D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

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Michael Kenny
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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Michael Kenny » 18 Aug 2019 13:13

Aida1 wrote:
18 Aug 2019 10:51


I am not going to be nice..................
You never were in your last 20+ fake IDs here. Same old General G.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Aida1 » 18 Aug 2019 15:24

Mori wrote:
18 Aug 2019 13:00
Aida1 wrote:
18 Aug 2019 10:46
When some German soldier complains about lack of munitions then there was lack of munitions at that particular time.Does not imply that the Germans always lacked munitions so your mention of strong German artillery barrages in a particular operation does not mean a thing.You are again making hargreaves book into something it is not meant to be and reject testimonies that do not suit you.
The first 2 sentences are precisely you "rejecting testimonies that do not suit you". LOL!
No I accept the testimony for the particular situation it concerns,nothing more,nothing less.You make the generalisations.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Mori » 18 Aug 2019 15:44

Aida1 wrote:
18 Aug 2019 08:59
.Obviously army soldiers Will have unfavourable sentiments about their own airforce in these circonstances
Aida1 wrote:
18 Aug 2019 10:34
So you are saying that weather.lack of maps,lack of winterclothing,poor roads,material superiority of the opponent and some poor decisions by higher command ..have no negative effects on military operations.Obviously they have and that goes for any war.
Guess who is "making generalisations" here. And these are just the first two I spot from your contributions.

Try again, dear IQ=80.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Aida1 » 18 Aug 2019 15:48

Mori wrote:
18 Aug 2019 15:44
Aida1 wrote:
18 Aug 2019 08:59
.Obviously army soldiers Will have unfavourable sentiments about their own airforce in these circonstances
Aida1 wrote:
18 Aug 2019 10:34
So you are saying that weather.lack of maps,lack of winterclothing,poor roads,material superiority of the opponent and some poor decisions by higher command ..have no negative effects on military operations.Obviously they have and that goes for any war.
Guess who is "making generalisations" here. And these are just the first two I spot from your contributions.

Try again, dear IQ=80.
Thanks for the personal attack.And the general statement i made here on the inhibiting factors on military operations is a valid one.You have difficulty with
accepting anything else than bad decisions.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Richard Anderson » 18 Aug 2019 15:50

Mori wrote:
18 Aug 2019 09:32
Point is, when writing in the 2000s, an author cannot ignore hindsight either. He should know the systematic biais in what he reads.
Oh, very true, but I don't think Richard either ignored hindsight or did not know of the systematic biases he was reading about existed, but he simply wasn't writing an analysis of either. It was a German POV version of what Gerald Astor, John McManus, and others do, find a first person account and then reprint it with minimum commentary.
I'll give an example. Germans keep complaining about lack of munitions. It's then interesting to see if there is a case when an Allied unit complained about a massive enemy artillery bombardment. Then investigate whether / how / why there were locations or times when Germans did not lack munitions after all; or show that not too many shells are enough to be perceived as "massive artillery bombardment".

I came across such cases when I studies the 1945 campaigns. Reading the FMS, you get the feeling Germans suffered from scarcity in everything everywhere. It's a very consistent message across this source.

Reading more, I realized the Allied advance was completely blocked end of February 1945 during operation Blockbuster (Hochwald, Simonds's II Can Corps). The Allies complained about massive artillery concentrations against them. Wait a minute, Germans all said they did not have munitions, and even when they had they had such a variety of guns that munitions never fit the right gun. This contradiction triggered more analysis to understand whether, and then how, a "massive wall of artillery" could happen while there were "no munitions".
That would potentially be a very good book if you can correlate enough of those cases. OMAHA is another. Zieligmann says "we fired off all our artillery ammo and still lost"...while the Americans pretty well got fucked by the artillery.
=> that's the type of thinking that is nowehre to be found in Hargreaves. He never reflects on what the witnesses state.
And, yet again, that was never what he stated he wanted to or was going to do. So you are complaining about what you wish the book was about rather than what the book is actually about, which is rather unfair.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Richard Anderson » 18 Aug 2019 15:53

Mori wrote:
18 Aug 2019 10:44
Aida1 wrote:
18 Aug 2019 10:34
.For you it must always be bad decisions
You have a point: I believe officers or generals do make decisions. And these decisions can't be neglected when it comes to explaining their defeats. And their crimes, by the way.

Besides, I'm not sure you are into any constructive discussion. You have a hard time not being agressive, haven't you?
Well, to be fair, he has to post a lot and fairly quickly before this latest iteration of his sock-puppet career gets banned. :lol:
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Mori » 18 Aug 2019 16:32

Richard Anderson wrote:
18 Aug 2019 15:50
And, yet again, that was never what he stated he wanted to or was going to do. So you are complaining about what you wish the book was about rather than what the book is actually about, which is rather unfair.
There is truth in this statement.

I read Heargraves book thinking of what message(s) the author aimed at. The quote I copied earlier is actually from the book, and I think it conveys the key message: Outnumbered the Landser always was in Normandy, but never outfought. It's a rather primitive thesis.

That's the outcome of finding first person accounts and translating & printing them without much commentary. It does not make for anything insightful.

I found a book such as Neitzel's Tapping Hitler's generals much more powerful. It's also built on first person accounts exclusively, but both structure and comments make it a fundamental contribution to history.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Aida1 » 18 Aug 2019 18:22

Mori wrote:
18 Aug 2019 16:32
Richard Anderson wrote:
18 Aug 2019 15:50
And, yet again, that was never what he stated he wanted to or was going to do. So you are complaining about what you wish the book was about rather than what the book is actually about, which is rather unfair.
There is truth in this statement.

I read Heargraves book thinking of what message(s) the author aimed at. The quote I copied earlier is actually from the book, and I think it conveys the key message: Outnumbered the Landser always was in Normandy, but never outfought. It's a rather primitive thesis.

That's the outcome of finding first person accounts and translating & printing them without much commentary. It does not make for anything insightful.

I found a book such as Neitzel's Tapping Hitler's generals much more powerful. It's also built on first person accounts exclusively, but both structure and comments make it a fundamental contribution to history.
I doubt that the author had a message.It is simply a collection of testimonies.You seem to have a problem with testimonies mentioning the factors that worked against the Germans.You can find these also mentioned in contemporary sources and in any book on the battle in Normandy.So there is no revelation there.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Mori » 18 Aug 2019 20:14

Aida1 wrote:
18 Aug 2019 18:22
I doubt that the author had a message.It is simply a collection of testimonies.
"Just collecting testimonies" and ignoring whatever else is a message, especially for a topic as documented as Normandy.

Having to mention this is just stating that 2+2=4. The more I read your comments the more your intellectual capabilities come in doubt.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Duncan_M » 20 Aug 2019 17:29

Michael Kenny wrote:
18 Aug 2019 13:13
You never were in your last 20+ fake IDs here. Same old General G.
What does this reference? Who is General G?

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Michael Kenny » 20 Aug 2019 18:04

Duncan_M wrote:
20 Aug 2019 17:29
Who is General G?

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=42107

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Duncan_M » 20 Aug 2019 18:37

Interesting. I already found a few other usernames Aida1 has used in the past where he misspells the same words he does now, "retoric"

lossov
steinmetz
guss
berlichingen

All four are banned users. :lol:

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Richard Anderson » 20 Aug 2019 18:56

Duncan_M wrote:
20 Aug 2019 18:37
Interesting. I already found a few other usernames Aida1 has used in the past where he misspells the same words he does now, "retoric"

lossov
steinmetz
guss
berlichingen

All four are banned users. :lol:
As will be this one shortly.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Cult Icon » 23 Aug 2019 05:44

Mori wrote:
18 Aug 2019 09:44
Have you investigated books assessing what Allied superiority meant pratically?
https://www.amazon.com/Normandy-1944-Or ... way&sr=8-3

This single reference makes the unit strengths clear and in a quick way although lacking the details of the unit histories. eg. so you can see roughly how long it took for divisions turned into half divisions and then into regimental battlegroups. Also, how many casualties attacks cost and the overall low level of replacements (reinforcements depended on shifting new units in) This can be matched this with a battle history and one can come up with their own conclusions.

The loss rate/attrition of german divisions was not particularly outstanding compared to the battles of the Eastern Front but what it is notable it that a lot was accomplished by firepower and not expending a lot of assault infantry in massed infantry struggles, making the casualty rate on the allied side rather moderate. Infantry mattered more in other battles than this one. In the East, the differences in artillery and air support was not this great and the Soviet infantry use was much more aggressive.

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Re: D Day through German Eyes: How the Wehrmacht Lost France, by Jonathan Trigg

Post by Mori » 23 Aug 2019 11:05

Zetterling's is a book worth having for reference.

When suggesting reading on air power effectiveness, I was thinking of the little known volume by Ian Gooderson (https://www.amazon.com/Air-Power-Battle ... 00C7TB7AO/).

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