Tigers in the Bulge

[Larso]

Now I'm sure this has been discussed before but my searches haven't found much?

I've been putting together the German tank strengths for the Ardennes attack and there's a lot of contraditory material. The one I'm perplexed about at the moment is the involvement of Tiger tanks. Some sources state that 200 or more Tiger tanks were involved but my research only points to the 30 - 35 Royal Tigers of the 501st SS with Pieper's battlegroup.

Surely there were others? But I can't find a mention of any oter unit? Various memoirs talk about Tigers at Norville and other places. I imagine they could have been allocated in company groups to the panzer divisions - but again, nothing clear is coming up?

Can anyone point me to suitable threads or soucres?
Thanks
John

[OpanaPointer]

Didn't they have issues with the bridges?

[Richard Anderson]

Now I'm sure this has been discussed before but my searches haven't found much?

I've been putting together the German tank strengths for the Ardennes attack and there's a lot of contraditory material. The one I'm perplexed about at the moment is the involvement of Tiger tanks. Some sources state that 200 or more Tiger tanks were involved but my research only points to the 30 - 35 Royal Tigers of the 501st SS with Pieper's battlegroup.

Surely there were others? But I can't find a mention of any oter unit? Various memoirs talk about Tigers at Norville and other places. I imagine they could have been allocated in company groups to the panzer divisions - but again, nothing clear is coming up?

Can anyone point me to suitable threads or soucres?
Thanks
John

In addition to 501. SS there was also sPzAbtl 506. (Heer), which was committed at Bastogne on 21 December, and also 301. (FKL), which had some Tiger I. There were never "200 or more" though.

[Larso]

Thanks Richard, that's exactly what I needed. It pointed me to a great thread on Feldgrau where Ron Klages provided excellent detail. I've summarised it as follows -

47 Tiger 2s + 8 Tiger 1s (Hummel Co) : 506th Heavy Pz Bn

29 Tiger 1s : 301st Pz Bn (stayed in reserve)

So the total is more in the order of 130 but minus the 301st and those non-op/being repaired, there were less than 100 Tiger 1 or 2s actually in action.

[Larso]

My next questions is about Pieper's Battle Group. Along from the 501st, it seems to have comprised all of the Pz IVs and Panthers assigned to the 1SS PZ Division.
Am I understanding correctly that the bulk of the 1st SS therefore went into the battle with only 10 - 20 Jagdpanzers?

[Kingfish]

For what it's worth I am currently playing John Tiller's 'Bulge '44' computer game, and it shows the mixed Tiger battalion of the 506th, a panzer company of the 301st attached to 9th PD and - depending on if you count this as a "Tiger" - a company of Jagdtigers of the 653rd assigned to PzAOK 5.

I should add that the particular scenario I am on begins with the German offensive at it's high tide -in other words 2nd Pz at Celles- so attrition has been factored in and not all units that were present are shown.

[Simon H]

My next questions is about Pieper's Battle Group. Along from the 501st, it seems to have comprised all of the Pz IVs and Panthers assigned to the 1SS PZ Division.
Am I understanding correctly that the bulk of the 1st SS therefore went into the battle with only 10 - 20 Jagdpanzers?

Kampfgruppe Peiper did not have any Jagdpanzers assigned to it directly although SS-Panzer Jager Abteilung 12 were later indirectly involved.

[dgfred]

I thought the few 'bigger' tanks in Pieper's Group couldn't keep up originally and moved forward as best they could? Problems with congestion, roads, bridges, etc

[JABIER]

Hi,

Post (Feldgrau.net) by Peter » Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:01 am

s.Panzer Abteilung 506
Meldung 1.12.44

Berge Panzer V and VI Soll 5, Einzatsbereit 3, in Kurzfristiger 1
Flak Panser IV, Soll 8, Einzatsbereit 5
Panzer VI, Soll 45, Einsatsbereit 11, in Kurzfristiger 13

There is another Meldung from 1.11.44 with this numbers: Panzer VI, Soll 45, Einsatsbereit 36, in Kurzfristiger 2
Luckily there is also a Panzerlage of LXXXI Corps from 2.11.44: s.pz.Abt 506 Ist. 39, Einsatzb. 36 ,Kurtzfr. Ist. 2, Langfr. Ist 1

I would say that "Soll" is the theoretical number of Tigers in the Abteilung, not the total number on the date of the "Meldung". Also in this report does not appear the number of tigers in long term repairs. Although In the Meldung the commander added this information:

Post by Peter » Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:01 am

s.Panzer Abteilung 506
Meldung 1.12.44

Kurzes Werturteil des Kommandeurs:-
Abteilung zur Zeit nur bedingt einsatzbereit, da 14 tage ununterbrochen im Einsatz. Nach Zeit (7 Tage) für Instandsetsung und Pflege 25 Panzern dann wieder für jede Aufgabe verwendungsbereit.

So at least there was one tiger in longterm repairs. How many more is unknow to me. Any one knows where to find this information?

Regards,
Javier

[Alanmccoubrey]

My next questions is about Pieper's Battle Group. Along from the 501st, it seems to have comprised all of the Pz IVs and Panthers assigned to the 1SS PZ Division.
Am I understanding correctly that the bulk of the 1st SS therefore went into the battle with only 10 - 20 Jagdpanzers?

Kampfgruppe Peiper did not have any Jagdpanzers assigned to it directly although SS-Panzer Jager Abteilung 12 were later indirectly involved.

He didn't say that Peiper had any Jagdpanzers, he said that the rest of the division only had Jagdpanzers, because Peip[er had all the tanks.

[AllenM]

Everything cannot be found on the internet.

https://www.amazon.com/Tanks-Battle-Bul ... 1472839226

[JABIER]

Hi AllenM,

For a pair of eyes is difficult to find all the information on the Internet, but in Forums there are many eyes. This helps a lot. Thanks for the book hint. It is searchable through googlebooks, unfortunately it does not contains the information that I am looking for.

https://books.google.es/books?id=9hazDw ... ge&f=false

Best regards,
Javier

[paulrward]

Hello All :

Mr. Allen M stated :

Everything cannot be found on the internet.

It is also important to remember what Abraham Lincoln said :


" You can't believe everything you read on the Internet...."


( I found this quote on the internet..... )


Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward

[Texas Jäger]

So the only Tigers near Elsenborn Ridge would have been Peiper's when they passed through Büllingen?

[Simon H]

So the only Tigers near Elsenborn Ridge would have been Peiper's when they passed through Büllingen?

Yes, these would have been the Tiger II column of schwere SS-Panzer-Abteilung 501 which travelled at the tail of KG Peiper during its advance.