Making the French surrender in the same rail car

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demonio
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Making the French surrender in the same rail car

Post by demonio » 22 Jun 2003 12:27

Making the French surrender in the same rail car that Germany surrenderred in in WW1. Can the knowledgable members please tell me how this made Top Nazi's feel and also how good it felt to march through the arc de triomph and also how humiliated France was at both the train car and the l'arc de triomph.

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Gen. Erwin Rommel
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Post by Gen. Erwin Rommel » 22 Jun 2003 13:17

When Hitler knew the Invasion plans were working in the perfection and France would be defeated for sure, i heard that he nearly cryed with the hapyness, i think for everybody in germany at the time, this was the final victory over the French, the revenge for all the humiliations

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Kelt
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Post by Kelt » 22 Jun 2003 19:25

I expect they did it because it made them feel good about themselves.

I expect the French were humiliated.

I'm not sure what the purpose of your question is.

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Zapfenstreich
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Post by Zapfenstreich » 22 Jun 2003 19:36

I always thought Hitler's treatment of the French was one of his greatest blunders of the war. Had he treated France honorably he could have turned her into a valuable ally and denied Britain a base of operations. Instead, he stripped her of territory and dignity. In short, he committed the same mistake the Allies did with Germany through the Diktat of Versailles. He was more intent on wreaking revenge than he he cared about the future.

A professional gambler I once knew told me, "Always leave a man some of his money and all of his dignity." I'm afraid Adi screwed the pooch on that one.

Z

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Tom Houlihan
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Post by Tom Houlihan » 22 Jun 2003 21:07

I always thought Hitler's treatment of the French was one of his greatest blunders of the war. Had he treated France honorably he could have turned her into a valuable ally and...
Exchange France with any of the other countries Germany walked over, and you can see why they lost!!!

demonio
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Post by demonio » 23 Jun 2003 00:36

Kelt wrote:I expect they did it because it made them feel good about themselves.

I expect the French were humiliated.

I'm not sure what the purpose of your question is.
The purpose of the question is to get a feel for what the feelings they were experiencing having beat France and rid themselves of the harsh
Versailles treaty.

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Skanderbeg
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Surrender and the Rail Car

Post by Skanderbeg » 23 Jun 2003 02:01

And I believe that the car was taken to Berlin, put on display & destroyed during Allied bombing sometime late in the war. Can't remember where I ran across that tidbit.

Kephra
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saloon carriage of Compiégne was destroyed in Crawinkel

Post by Kephra » 23 Jun 2003 08:16

Image
Image
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Compiégne 06/21/1940

The saloon carriage of the Rethondes/Compiégne armistices was destroyed with explosives by SS-Gebirgsjäger [elements of 6.SS-Geb.Div., if I remember right] at the end of the war. The exact location seems to be Crawinkel - a little village located in the Thuringian Forest not far from Ohrdruf and Arnstadt.

This is often mantioned in articels and books about Jonastal (an assumed Nuclear- and Intercontinental Rocket Research Center), because the fact, that this highly valuable carriage (for emotional and propaganda reasons), was hidden there, is seen from some authors as another hint showing the impotance of the area for the Hitler regime in its last days.

for Jonastal-project look at: http://ssp-exploration.de/the_jonastal_project.htm
[...]The other example is as follows: in 1993 the "Direction des Archives et de la Documentation" was entrusted with the case of a German man from Lübeck, M.H., who was undertaking to return the bronze handles of the Rethondes Armistice saloon carriage, which his father had rescued from a fire in 1945. In June 1940 in Compiègne Hitler took possession of this saloon carriage, in which the Armistice of November 11th, 1918 had been signed, in order to sign the armistice of June 1940 in it. Later, in the last months of the war, the carriage was taken on Hitler's orders to an ammunition depot in a forest in Crawinkel near Ohrdruf (Thuringia), and left on a siding.

As Allied troops advanced, the carriage was set on fire and blown up. M.H.'s father, who at this time lived in the vicinity of Ohrdruf, heard of the incident and went to collect the bronze handles. He told no one about them and looked after them with great care. When his son visited him after the war, the father asked that he return the relics to France at some stage because of their great historical value. Three years after reunification M.H. was able to take possession of the handles. In 1993 he first suggested returning them to France. The handles are about 136 cm long, weigh 10 kg and are fastened to two pieces of wood which show signs of fire. After mediation by the Foreign Minister the handles were handed over to the Army Museum in April 1994.[...]

http://www.dhh-3.de/biblio/bremen/treasures/france.html
Gerhardt Remdt/Günter Wermusch: "Rätsel Jonastal - Die Geschichte des letzten "Führerhauptquartiers", Heinrich-Jung-Verlagsgesellschaft mbH Zella-Mehlis/Meiningen 1998, p.62ff. [ISBN 3-930588-38-2]

[...]

Der Wagen von Compiégne

Den letztgültigen Beweis dafür, daß Spitzen der Reichsführung, trotz Hitlers Ablehnung und offenbar auf einen Gesinnungswandel des Führers hoffend, tatsächlich planten, in der Region um Arnstadt/Ohrdruf ein Mini-Deutschland zu etablieren, liefert wohl die Überführung des Salonzuges von Compiégne nach Crawinkel. In diesem Wagen war am 11. November 1918 der Waffenstillstand zwischen Frankreich und Deutschland geschlossen worden. Es hieß, die deutschen Unterhändler hätten damals lange in Nässe und Regen vor dem Wagen warten müssen, bis Marschall Foch geruhte, sie zu empfangen. Zweiundzwanzig Jahre später, am 21. Juni 1940, wurde im Wald von Compiégne und in demselben Salonwagen wieder ein Waffenstillstand unterzeichnet, doch waren die Rollen getauscht: Auf Marschall Fochs Stuhl hatte nun Hitler Platz genommen. Zu Hitlers Leidwesen herrschte indes das schönste Juniwetter. Dann traf die französische Delegation ein, und Hitler geruhte, Marschall Petain aufzufordern, ihm gegenüber Platz zu nehmen.
Der Wagen kam später nach Berlin, wo er im Lustgarten als Denkmal für die getilgte Schmach von Versailles aufgestellt wurde. Lange Zeit hatte man angenommen, der Salonwagen sei bei einem Bombenangriff auf Berlin vernichtet worden.
Schachtmeister Friedrich Bohn aus Crawinkel erinnert sich:
"Ich war am Bau des Gleises beteilligt, auf dem später der sogenannte Friedenswagen von Compiégne stand. Rein in den Wagen kam ich nie, der war keinen Moment unbewacht. SS-Posten standen um ihn herum und hatten ihn auch beim Antransport begleitet ... Der Wagen ist im Januar/Februar gekommen und stand bis zum Schluß da."
Eisenbahner aus Crawinkel und den umliegenden Ortschaften erzählten, der Wagen sollte kurz vor der Ankunft der Amerikaner noch abtransportiert werden. Aber das war unmöglich, weil auf demselben Schienenstrang ein entgleister Güterwagen lag und die Strecke blockierte. Schließlich wurde der Wagen gesprengt. Kurz zuvor war es einem Jungen aus Crawinkel doch noch gelungen, in das Innere des Salonwagens zu kommen. Er erinnerte sich, fast ein hallbes Jahrhundert später, dort noch die Waffenstillstandsurkunden gesehen zu haben. Den letztgültigen Beweis dafür, daß der Wagen in Crawinkel gestanden hatte und dort gesprengt worden war, lieferte Ernst Kümmerling, der in dem am 24. Oktober 1991 ausgestrahlten Fernsehfilm des ZDF "Das letzte Führerhauptquartier" von Franz Fitzke und Halim Hosny stolz ein Emblem des Salonwagens vorwies, das er gefunden hatte. Der bis auf das Fahrwerk zerstörte Rest des Wagens kam Ende 1945 nach Gotha und wurde dort verschrottet.

Zu irgendwelchen Aktionen kamen die Herren vom Oberkommando des Heeres und von der Reichsführung im Raum "OLGA" [ = Raum "Ohrdruf-Luisental-Gotha-Arnstadt". Anm. Kephra] indes nicht mehr. Besorgt verfolgte man die Lageberichte vom Oberkommando der Wehrmacht, erging man sich in Prognosen, welche Stoßrichtung die Armeen der Westallierten nach der Überquerung des Rheins wählen würden. Die Illusion, daß Thüringen von den Amerikanern umgangen und - wenigstens zunächst - unbesetzt bleiben würde, zerstob jedoch sehr bald.
[...]


Image
Crawinkel

Grüße!
Kephra
Last edited by Kephra on 23 Jun 2003 18:11, edited 1 time in total.

demonio
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Post by demonio » 23 Jun 2003 11:12

wow. that must have been a really special moment. Look at proud Hess in the rail car

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PAK
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Post by PAK » 23 Jun 2003 18:05

Zapfenstreich wrote:I always thought Hitler's treatment of the French was one of his greatest blunders of the war. Had he treated France honorably he could have turned her into a valuable ally and denied Britain a base of operations.
Yes, but he would have lost the support of the germans, my grandpa told me that when Hitler defeated France and humiliated them, the Volk went crazy, some people even started praying to Hitler instead of to god, it was Hitler's most popular time, everybody really loved him for this.
Most of the germans supported the war because of Versailles, France had ever been the arch enemy of germany there wouldn't have been any compromises, that's what the people wanted to have and that's what they got.

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Zapfenstreich
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Post by Zapfenstreich » 23 Jun 2003 21:59

PAK wrote:
Zapfenstreich wrote:I always thought Hitler's treatment of the French was one of his greatest blunders of the war. Had he treated France honorably he could have turned her into a valuable ally and denied Britain a base of operations.
Yes, but he would have lost the support of the germans, my grandpa told me that when Hitler defeated France and humiliated them, the Volk went crazy, some people even started praying to Hitler instead of to god, it was Hitler's most popular time, everybody really loved him for this.
Most of the germans supported the war because of Versailles, France had ever been the arch enemy of germany there wouldn't have been any compromises, that's what the people wanted to have and that's what they got.
I agree with you completely. Unfortunately, I really believe this was one of the great German errors of the war.

It seems to have been a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Z

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Ti.P
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Post by Ti.P » 24 Jun 2003 13:46

Zapfenstreich wrote:
PAK wrote:
Zapfenstreich wrote:I always thought Hitler's treatment of the French was one of his greatest blunders of the war. Had he treated France honorably he could have turned her into a valuable ally and denied Britain a base of operations.
Yes, but he would have lost the support of the germans, my grandpa told me that when Hitler defeated France and humiliated them, the Volk went crazy, some people even started praying to Hitler instead of to god, it was Hitler's most popular time, everybody really loved him for this.
Most of the germans supported the war because of Versailles, France had ever been the arch enemy of germany there wouldn't have been any compromises, that's what the people wanted to have and that's what they got.
I agree with you completely. Unfortunately, I really believe this was one of the great German errors of the war.

It seems to have been a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Z

It was back and froth with humiliations between germany and france for centuries! u coudl say thats wot cause WWI (maybe, or atleast added to fighting) and what cause WWII

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Post by Kurt_Steiner » 28 Jul 2004 17:38

Another reason to the popular "worshipping" of Adolf Hitler was the fact that, after a Blitz campaing, he had achieved what the Imperial Army wasn't able to do in four years of war. After this, the war seemed to be over and everything was possible.

Best regards

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