D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

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Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by wm » 13 Jul 2021 13:32

The movie was based on the book. The sleeping Hitler meme actually originated from the book too.

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Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by Sheldrake » 13 Jul 2021 16:17

Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Jul 2021 13:20
If it had a political slant, it was probably informed by the Cold War. "The Longest Day" began filming the same month the Berlin Wall was begun and was released the same month as the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Agreed,

In 1961 the Americans were champions of the United Nations and NATO. The film was very careful to play up the importance of America's Allies. Key parts of the film emphasizes the role of the British and exaggerates that of French troops - the climax of the film is the capture of the Ousistrehem Casino. The re-armed (Good) Germans are portrayed fairly accurately and even sympathetically.

The Longest Day is very fair to the German side. Far more than, Saving Private Ryan, Fury or errr ... Inglorious Basterds... :D

By the end of the Cold War American interests and the appetites of US cinema audiences had changed .
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Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Jul 2021 17:51

Hi wm,

Hitler was renowned for talking with (or rather at) his entourage into the small hours, going to bed late and getting up late.

In 1944 a captured SS man named, "Obernigg provided British intelligence officers with a detailed description of Hitler's daily routine at the retreat. Hitler was said to favor waking up at about 10 a.m., breakfasted on coffee, bread and marmalade shortly afterward, and received visitors including his doctor in the afternoon. The accounts show he apparently worked until late in the night and went to sleep as late as 4 a.m.".

Two of his maids also confirm his late sleeping.

His entire "Table Talk" seems to be a record of his late night/early morning harangues of his entourage.

If on 6 June 1944 he was up bright eyed and bushy tailed at dawn, when the landings took place, it requires an explanation as to why he changed his habits.

In the absence of one, the default position is that "D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping".

In fact, "It was four hours since the first [unconfirmed] news started to trickle in that the invasion would begin that night... Hitler [who hadn't been informed of the rumors] went to bed [in the the Berghof on the Obersalzberg] not long after [Joseph] Goebbels had left, probably around 3 a.m [after watching a film with him and Eva Braun]. When [Albert] Speer arrived next morning, seven hours later [around 10 a.m.], Hitler had still not been wakened with the news of the invasion. In fact, it seems that the initial skepticism at the Supreme Command of the Wehrmacht that this indeed was the invasion had been finally dispelled only a little while earlier, probably between 8.15 and 9.30 a.m. Influenced by German intelligence reports, Hitler had spoken a good deal in previous weeks that the invasion would begin with a decoy attack to drag the German troops away from the actual landing-place. In fact, Allied deception through the dropping of dummy parachutists and other diversionary tactics did contribute to initial German confusion about the location of the landing. His adjutants now hesitated to waken him with mistaken information." (Ian Kershaw. 2001. Hitler 1936-1945: Nemesis. p. 639)."

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by wm » 13 Jul 2021 19:22

I meant that because the ideas (including that the corporal was responsible) were in the book (and the movie merely got them from there), it's not true that the movie adopted them because of the Cold War, the Cuban Missile Crises, NATO, Germany, or who knows what else.

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Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by Sheldrake » 14 Jul 2021 00:36

wm wrote:
13 Jul 2021 19:22
I meant that because the ideas (including that the corporal was responsible) were in the book (and the movie merely got them from there), it's not true that the movie adopted them because of the Cold War, the Cuban Missile Crises, NATO, Germany, or who knows what else.
Why do you think movies are written the way they are? Hollywood movies are written to appeal to the mood of the mainly US audience.

Why wasn't Saving Private Ryan based on history rather than 30 minutes of intensive portrayal of the D day experience of the first waves at Omaha beach followed by 90 minutes of nonsense?

Why have westerns fallen out of favour.

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Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by ljadw » 14 Jul 2021 06:51

Sid Guttridge wrote:
13 Jul 2021 13:20
Hi ljadw,

No, it is not "obvious that The Longest Day was a biased propaganda movie". It was a commercial exercise, not a propaganda exercise (assuming by that you mean it was officially sponsored to make a particular political point).

You post, "it was needed that a lot of Germans would see the movie". Nope. While it would no doubt be financially beneficial if a good number of the 60 million West Germans saw the film, like all Hollywood movies it was essentially premised on a good number of the 300 million Anglo-Saxons paying to see it.

Was it biased? Undoubtedly, because D-Day was largely shown from a particular Allied perspective. However, this does not make it "propaganda".

If it had a political slant, it was probably informed by the Cold War. "The Longest Day" began filming the same month the Berlin Wall was begun and was released the same month as the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Cheers,

Sid
The Longest Day was biased: the stupid Hitler, the professional von s .
The Longest Day was propaganda ....for the Bundeswehr (Speidel,who made a career after the war using the dead Rommel,was a top NATO commander ) and for the US Army .
The Longest Day was swarming with cliches,inventions, lies,unproved assertions,with childish scenes : the Bohemian Corporal,.Pathfinders landing at the HQ of 15 th Army,...Lord Lovat with a bagpiper.
The role of Britain was hidden,although there were more British than US soldiers landing on 6 June .
The Longest Day was only a modern Western ,and a very bad one .The fact that it produced a benefit of $ 50 million is unbelievable .
Last point : there were no 300 million Anglo-Saxons in 1960 .

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Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 Jul 2021 10:24

Hi ljadw,

You are right - there were not some 300 million people in the Anglo-Saxon countries in 1962. There were only about 270 million. My apologies.

A lot of the rest you wrote is also true, but this does not make "The Longest Day" "propaganda ....for the Bundeswehr". For that you have to show that the Bundeswehr influenced the making of the film to its advantage. Where is the evidence that it did so?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by ljadw » 14 Jul 2021 13:26

I have not to show that the BW influenced the making of the film to its advantage, because the reality is that the movie showed the German generals,who in 1961, led the BW,as competent professionals and Hitler as an imbecile,who was responsible for the allied success .
See the scene where it was claimed that Hitler slept and the scene where we see Rundstedt saying that Hitler was only a Bohemian corporal .
That Hitler slept or was awake was totally irrelevant for the outcome of D Day .
That Rundstedt said with contempt that Hitler was only a Bohemian corporal,is unproven and unlikely . Whatever : the same Rundstedt had no objection to receive 250000 RM from the Bohemian corporal for his anniversary in December 1941 .
Another thing about the movie : 20th Century Fox was almost bankrupt and was saved by the money of The Longest Day .That is a reason why the European ,especially German ,market was that important .
And, since 1945 the German public was told ( and is still told ) that Hitler only was responsible for the Holocaust and the defeat,something the German public was and still is very enthusiast to hear and to accept .
You can imagine the revolt that would arise in Germany ,if a movie would show Hitler as he was, not as were saying the media and Speidel,because it would force the German public to admit its co-responsibility for the Holocaust ,the same for the military and they would no longer have Hitler as scapegoat .
Given that in 1961 West Germany was America's biggest and most reliable ally (without the 12 divisions of the BW ,NATO would be powerless ),one can imagine the reaction of the WH if 20th Century Fox would ridiculize and put in their place Speidel and the BW generals .
If they were not the military geniuses of WW 2 ,as they told everyone, what would be the justification for their claim to lead NATO?

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Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by ljadw » 14 Jul 2021 16:13

The following is from Die Welt 6 June 2014 : ''Minutenprotokoll: So verlief die allierte Invasion in der Normandie .''
0.18 H : first allied (British ) paratroopers land near Caen .
1.11 H : HQ of 84 AK receives the first news
2.11 H : Hitler is going to bed
2.15 : Dollmann is informed .
2.20 Speidel and Rundstedt are informed.
2.40 : Blumentritt tells 7th Army : no big fuss .
2.55 : Rundstedt orders to inform the Berghof .
4.30 : Blumentritt asks the consent to commit the 2 PzD .
4.40 : No one at Zossen is still informed .
6.25: Jodl cancels the order to commit the 2 PzD .
9.15 :more information arrives at Berchtesgaden .
10.30 : the advance of 21 PzD is stopped.
11.00 (!) : Hitler receives the news that something is happening in Normandy ,but does not change his program : he must leave for Klessheim before the arrival of the Hungarians in the early afternoon . (We don't know when they arrived and when Hitler left Berchtesgaden ).
13 H : Hitler arrives at Klessheim .
14.15 (14 hours after the first paratroopers landed ) 12 SS receives the order to go to Caen .
14.45 : PzLehr also receives the order to go to Normandy, a distance of 150 km .
Nothing from all this is mentioned in The Longest Day ,only the ridiculous story of Rundstedt refusing to talk to the bohemian corporal and Blumentritt failing to contact Hitler,because no one dared to wake him .

Why was all this not mentioned in the movie,while it was known ?
1 The producers were to stupid to understand the importance of it ,and the military counselors did nothing unless to cash their cheque.
2 It was not political correct to tell it .

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Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by Sheldrake » 14 Jul 2021 16:30

ljadw wrote:
14 Jul 2021 16:13
The following is from Die Welt 6 June 2014 : ''Minutenprotokoll: So verlief die allierte Invasion in der Normandie .''
0.18 H : first allied (British ) paratroopers land near Caen .
1.11 H : HQ of 84 AK receives the first news
2.11 H : Hitler is going to bed
2.15 : Dollmann is informed .
2.20 Speidel and Rundstedt are informed.
2.40 : Blumentritt tells 7th Army : no big fuss .
2.55 : Rundstedt orders to inform the Berghof .
4.30 : Blumentritt asks the consent to commit the 2 PzD .
4.40 : No one at Zossen is still informed .
6.25: Jodl cancels the order to commit the 2 PzD .
9.15 :more information arrives at Berchtesgaden .
10.30 : the advance of 21 PzD is stopped.
11.00 (!) : Hitler receives the news that something is happening in Normandy ,but does not change his program : he must leave for Klessheim before the arrival of the Hungarians in the early afternoon . (We don't know when they arrived and when Hitler left Berchtesgaden ).
13 H : Hitler arrives at Klessheim .
14.15 (14 hours after the first paratroopers landed ) 12 SS receives the order to go to Caen .
14.45 : PzLehr also receives the order to go to Normandy, a distance of 150 km .
Nothing from all this is mentioned in The Longest Day ,only the ridiculous story of Rundstedt refusing to talk to the bohemian corporal and Blumentritt failing to contact Hitler,because no one dared to wake him .

Why was all this not mentioned in the movie,while it was known ?
1 The producers were to stupid to understand the importance of it ,and the military counselors did nothing unless to cash their cheque.
2 It was not political correct to tell it .
You have missed out a few bits - which were reflected in the elements of the Longest day which you criticised.

0030 parachutists dropped close to the divisional HQ of 711st Infanty Division who issue an alarm and alert LXXXI Corps of 15th Army
0100 LXXXI Corps 15th Army issue alert warning of parachutists dropping on 711 Div area , bombing of coastal batteries and from sound location units the report of large formations of slow flying aircraft and seabourne forces.

The problem is that it sounds as if you would like to perpetuate the old Nazi Durchstoss theory that Speidel sabotaged attempts to respond to D Day. The German command structure was a mess, and a victim of wishful thinking. It had been caught out by Allied deception and Eisenhower's decision to go ahead under marginal weather conditions. The first two points can be laid at the Fuhrer's door.

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Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by ljadw » 14 Jul 2021 20:40

TWO parachutists dropped close to the HQ of 711 ID,which was a part of 15th Army and was not in Normandy .
I don't think that there was an old Nazi Durchstoss theory about Speidel sabotaging the attempts to respond to D Day .
But, we KNOW that such Dolchstoss theory was invented after the war,perpetuated by The Longest Day and the other media and still believed by the German public today : that the allied success on D Day was caused by Hitler .
That the German command structure was a mess ,is very questionable : it was not more a mess than the allied command structure where Eisenhower was not only commander of all SHAEFF forces,but also of the ground forces, but had given ,temporarily, Montgomery the command of the ground forces.
Fortitude and the weather did not cause the German defeat : without Fortitude and the bad weather,the result would be the same .
The reason of the allied success is very simple : the Allies were stronger .
The irony is that the same Hitler,who is accused of micromanaging all military operations, was giving his generals a free hand in Normandy during the first days after D Day .
The WFS was responsible for all military operations outside the Russian front, and it was Jodl, not Hitler who refused his consent to the commitment of the 2 PzD .
It took 2 hours to inform Speidel and Rundstedt,this was not the fault of Hitler . And after 2 hours and 30 minutes, OBW told 7th Army that there was no serious danger .Not the fault of Hitler .
It took OBW 4 hours ,when the night was ending, to ask Jodl to make the 2 PzD available .But, they could not move before 10 PM ,because of the allied air superiority at day .Not the fault of Hitler .
It took NINE hours before the Berghof received additional information : what were doing Blumentritt and Speidel during these 9 hours ?
About Fortitude : this had no influence at all on the distribution of the German forces : 2 PzD was not at Amiens because the Germans believed that the main attack was directed against 15 th Army, but because the bodenständige divisions at the Pas de Calais were to weak to stop an allied attack .It was the same for 2 SS at Toulouse and the PzD at the Mediterranean coast .
The allies could chose where they would attack and the Germans had to defend everything .
When the order was given to 9 and 10 SS to leave Poland for Normandy, the reason was not that the Germans believed that Normandy was a main or diversionary attack,but that there was an invasion that had to be eliminated as soon as possible .
When there is a defeat, the population and the media are searching for a scapegoat, someone of their own (which eliminates the bad possibility that the enemy won because he was stronger ) and for Germany, the ideal scapegoat was Hitler ( no one would defend the responsible of the Holocaust ), for the defeat in WW 1 ,it was the dead Moltke .For MG, the Americans chose Montgomery,the British a Dutch traitor,for Jubilee the scapegoat was Mountbatten the French picked Petain, Gamelin, Daladier, etc,British writers,who called themselves also historians, blamed Chamberlain for the defeat of the BEF .
The Germans did not admit that FDR, Churchill and Stalin were responsible for their defeat .
And,it is the same for football : the English public blamed English players for the loss against Italy, otherwise they should have to admit that the Italians were better ,but : pereat cogitatio.

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Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by Sheldrake » 14 Jul 2021 21:33

ljadw wrote:
14 Jul 2021 20:40
TWO parachutists dropped close to the HQ of 711 ID,which was a part of 15th Army and was not in Normandy .
I don't think that there was an old Nazi Durchstoss theory about Speidel sabotaging the attempts to respond to D Day .
But, we KNOW that such Dolchstoss theory was invented after the war, perpetuated by The Longest Day and the other media and still believed by the German public today : that the allied success on D Day was caused by Hitler ............

<snip>
The Germans did not admit that FDR, Churchill and Stalin were responsible for their defeat .
And,it is the same for football : the English public blamed English players for the loss against Italy, otherwise they should have to admit that the Italians were better ,but : pereat cogitatio.
ljdaw - you are Franz Liebkind and I claim my £5...

The two parachutists landing by HQ 711 had more effect that huge amounts of deception played somewhere lower down the chain of command. For half the night the picture at Army Group B and OB West assumed there were paratroops all the way up to the river Seine.

They even appear on the OKH Lage West situation map for 6 June 1944. Note also the apparent defeat of landings on Utah beach, the absence of the entire British 6th Airborne Division, the junction of the British and Canadian beaches and the the 12 SS apparently aimed at the Orne Bridghead!
extract situation map Lage West 6 June .jpg
The same map identifies 56 allied infantry divisions 15 armoured and seven airborne divisions.
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Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by Boby » 14 Jul 2021 21:55

Now we are going from "Hitler was asleep" to "OB West was a mess, it was Hitler's fault". :roll: :roll:

How many scapegoats does a man need? (L. Tolstoi). :roll:

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Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by Sheldrake » 14 Jul 2021 23:22

Boby wrote:
14 Jul 2021 21:55
Now we are going from "Hitler was asleep" to "OB West was a mess, it was Hitler's fault". :roll: :roll:

How many scapegoats does a man need? (L. Tolstoi). :roll:
Those were different questions, but they are both based on the same assumption: that all power and decision-making in the Third Reich rested with Hitler.

I don't think you are the scapegoat if you make yourself the head of government of a one party state, commander in of the armed services and micromanage decisions. The rest of the population deserve what they get for following you.

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Re: D-Day Started while Hitler was Sleeping - Which Sources?

Post by ljadw » 15 Jul 2021 06:40

Not all decision-making rested with Hitler, because one person could not make all decisions .
One can say that Hitler was responsible for the start of WW 2,but one can not say that he was responsible for Germany's defeat,because the hidden reason for the claim that he was responsible for Germany's defeat,is the belief that without his interventions,Germany ,led by the generals, would have won WW 2 ,because the generals were military geniuses.
The truth is that nothing what Hitler did prevented Germany from winning and that nothing what he did caused Germany's defeat and that even if Germany won WW 2,it would very soon collapse.
Does this mean that all Hitler's decisions were correct ? No,of course .But that is not important ,as correct decisions were a luxury Germany could not afford : Germany could only take decisions that were possible to execute .
Besides, the decisions of the generals were also not always correct ,the same for their postwar alternatives for Hitler's decisions .
Some of Churchill's decisions /of the decisions of his generals were also questionable, but this is not very important, as Britain could afford such decisions .
It is the same ( for both sides ) of most postwar ifs,which are proposals made mostly with the aim to make Germany winning ;such proposals (the Anglo-Saxon literary world is swarming with them ) are founded on hindsight,on a total lack of knowledge and on the refusal to accept Germany's defeat .Military decisions are made because they are possible, not because they are correct .
Four examples :
Historynet : Hitler's greatest blunders
Forbes : what were the biggest strategic mistakes the Germans made during WW 2 ?
History of Yesterday :10 mistakes by Hitler that prove he was an idiot .
The Longest Day : Hitler slept when the Allies attacked on 6 June ( Churchill and FDR also slept, but the ''experts '' of The Longest Day did not mention this ).

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