US Army logistical failures in NWE

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Appleknocker27
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Re: US Army logistical failures in NWE

#46

Post by Appleknocker27 » 23 May 2022, 19:57

Michael Kenny wrote:
23 May 2022, 19:30
Appleknocker27 wrote:
23 May 2022, 19:11
What was the original question posed here? I read the thread, went back to the first post(s) and its tough to identify....
Seems to be a rant about a few failures on the Allied campaign logistics score card but lacks real clarity. That's probably why it went OT so quickly.
The original poster was smarting because one of his (many) threads to find a way reverse the result of WW2 went in a direction that did not please him. He decided to 'get back' at those that upset him (i.e. anyone who does not recognise his greatness and unique insight) by initiating a heated debate' disparaging the NWE campaign. It is a troll pure and simple and his contributions will get even sillier as it progresses. There is another perennial 'The Soviets won WW2 all by themselves' devotee who has decided to join in and lend support to the troll. The 'ranting' is deliberate and the only positive is that the pair are so badly informed that it is easy to see they can not distinguish their gluteus maximus from their arm's synovial joint. Like The German Army they are completely outclassed and will fare just as badly here as the Germans did in Normandy.
So its a Wehraboo and Sovietophile writing Western Allied military history? :thumbsup:
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Re: US Army logistical failures in NWE

#47

Post by Cult Icon » 23 May 2022, 20:18

Appleknocker27 wrote:
23 May 2022, 19:57

So its a Wehraboo and Sovietophile writing Western Allied military history? :thumbsup:
Call Benny Hill and break out the sax, we're making a montage.
Include the Allied-biased internet trolls with 10-20 + years multi-forum track record posting made up propaganda


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Re: US Army logistical failures in NWE

#48

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 24 May 2022, 03:10

Cult Icon wrote:
23 May 2022, 15:49
I am referring not only the consumption of ammunition but the organization and equipment of the army (OOB). Removing excess personnel, units, and equipment & adding other types. Making modifications to its tactical doctrines. Like a corporate reorganization, a right-sized/pared down force could potentially 1. decrease its supply requirements 2. at the same time, increase its combat effectiveness.
This seems to have been the general theme of the post-Vietnam volunteer army reforms - at least the goal.

Sonke Neitzel has some interesting comparative analysis of the Bundeswehr/Wehrmacht on these themes. His over-arching argument, IIRC, could be summarized as: military administrative/personnel efficiency declines with proximity to threat. As the German Army historically operated in a perpetually-high (perceived or real) threat environment, conditions existed for it to trim the fat. Absent that environment, the logic of human relationships pushes large organizations to serve interests beyond their actual purpose (careers for friends and peers, cash for weapons manufacturers, the counterproductive effects of rigid hierarchy). Basically armies - like all organizations - have lots of bullshit. The US could afford more bullshit than Germany, so it had more. [Not to say Germany had no BS - eg creating the Waffen SS]

The substantive point - that American and German logistics in Barbarossa and NWE have interesting parallels - I will explore further as time allows. This is not, of course, to say that they were equally bad. Barbarossa is in a league of its own. It's why the Wallies were able to assist the Soviets in winning WW2.
Last edited by TheMarcksPlan on 24 May 2022, 03:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: US Army logistical failures in NWE

#49

Post by Michael Kenny » 24 May 2022, 03:22

Appleknocker27 wrote:
23 May 2022, 19:57

Call Benny Hill and break out the sax, we're making a montage.
Screenshot_334.jpg
Screenshot_v143.jpg

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Re: US Army logistical failures in NWE

#50

Post by Kingfish » 24 May 2022, 10:29

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
22 May 2022, 08:06
The next problem is less obvious to a beginner but should still be obvious to any remotely-informed military amateur: failure to prepare for contingency, especially for easily-foreseeable opportunity. That the German army would rapidly be defeated was easily foreseeable. See my next points.
I am fairly certain any remotely-informed military amateur would point out the fallacy of preparing for contingencies at the expense of the primary mission.
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Re: US Army logistical failures in NWE

#51

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 24 May 2022, 10:50

Kingfish wrote:preparing for contingencies at the expense of the primary mission.
At the expense of personal policy, I'll respond to this post because it's representative of the analytical failures on display.

What's the primary mission? Win the war. Is there ANY Wallied strategy that risks losing the war? No - Germany loses even if the infant love child of Ike's mistress draws up Overlord. Once the Wallies switch from cheering on the Red Army to actually fighting a big chunk of the German Army, the end is close.

With the primary mission ensured, what's our next priority? Win the war sooner than later.

An argument that better logistical support would have lengthened the war has to be something like the following:

"The US Army's 12:1 AFV superiority in Cobra was just enough to break through. Had it been 11:1 so we could have enough trucks/trains, those super-scary Germans would have stopped us."

I don't buy it, stop being so scared of the German Army. They weren't that much better than the Wallies.
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Re: US Army logistical failures in NWE

#52

Post by Cult Icon » 24 May 2022, 16:00

Appleknocker27 wrote:
24 May 2022, 14:04
Are you actually seeking some sort of discussion, or is this just some sort of echo chamber for you?
Not much of an echo chamber with the 10-20+ year allied biased (usual suspects) popping in to give their 2 cents. Is respect from such people, including malignant internet trolls even worth anything?

What kind of funny glasses are you wearing?

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Re: US Army logistical failures in NWE

#53

Post by Appleknocker27 » 24 May 2022, 16:43

Cult Icon wrote:
24 May 2022, 16:00
Appleknocker27 wrote:
24 May 2022, 14:04
Are you actually seeking some sort of discussion, or is this just some sort of echo chamber for you?
Not much of an echo chamber with the 10-20+ year allied biased (usual suspects) popping in to give their 2 cents. Is respect from such people, including malignant internet trolls even worth anything?

What kind of funny glasses are you wearing?
Posts #2 and #3 framed the "discussion" in proper context, but were more or less ignored. Thus my echo chamber observation regarding the OP's dialogue that ensued.

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Re: US Army logistical failures in NWE

#54

Post by Richard Anderson » 24 May 2022, 17:12

Appleknocker27 wrote:
24 May 2022, 16:43
Posts #2 and #3 framed the "discussion" in proper context, but were more or less ignored. Thus my echo chamber observation regarding the OP's dialogue that ensued.
Well sure they were ignored, because they failed to display the proper deference to the genius of the original post.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to figure out how the Allies managed to get 12,000 AFV into Normandy by 25 July? Or maybe the reference was literally to US VII Corps in COBRA, but then how did II FJK and LXXXIV AK between them only muster fewer than 92 AFV on 25 July?

Also meanwhile, isn't the ability to generate substantial superiority in logistically intensive forces like AFVs a sign of a logistical success rather than failure?
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Re: US Army logistical failures in NWE

#55

Post by Appleknocker27 » 24 May 2022, 17:54

Richard Anderson wrote:
24 May 2022, 17:12
Also meanwhile, isn't the ability to generate substantial superiority in logistically intensive forces like AFVs a sign of a logistical success rather than failure?
Agreed.
Seems to me (call me crazy), that in order to properly compare the "logistical failures" of the two campaign in question you would need a stated metric, followed by an analytical methodology. Anything less is just trying to build a house without a foundation or a frame.
Last edited by Appleknocker27 on 24 May 2022, 22:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: US Army logistical failures in NWE

#56

Post by Martin_Schenkel » 24 May 2022, 19:22

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
24 May 2022, 10:50
I don't buy it, stop being so scared of the German Army. They weren't that much better than the Wallies.
I think it's easy to say something like this with 80 years of hindsight and research. Back at the time, the things that are obvious and known to us in great detail weren't to them.

I often think back to an old discussion here about why the Allies didn't land in France in 1943. After all, they had won the Battle of the Atlantic by spring 1943 so it was all clear and easy after that. Well sure, we now know that the Battle of the Atlantic was finally won in the spring of 1943 but they didn't know that it was with such finality at the time and that it would be all clear and easy after that.

It's easy for us to say "don't be so scared of the German Army in 1944" with all the minute details of research that we now have. You and I now have access to more info on the German Army than the German Army had on itself at the time. The Germany of 1944 is only two years removed from the Germany of 1942 that was in the Caucasus, on the Volga, at the gates of Egypt, and (easily) sinking ships off the coast of North America. The Allies did know and realise that the German Army of 1944 wasn't the same as 1942, but we could also say that if the Allies hadn't taken the German Army as seriously as it did in 1944 then events and Allied actions would've been different. And how would that relative underestimation then have changed the course of the war?

It's easy to say with hindsight looking at the course of events that the Allies shipped more ground troops than they needed so they should've focused more on logistics. They didn't have the same insight and information and knowledge of the course of future events that we have 80 years later.

Do we at the moment know precisely what's happening in Ukraine and can we predict with great detail and certainty how the war will turn out? 20 years from now people will discuss and research and come to the conclusion that the result (whatever it will be) should've been obvious and so why were people getting so worked up about certain developments. It will get wargamed a million times over and the course of history will seem obvious. It's always obvious after the fact but never in the heat of and fog of battle.

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Re: US Army logistical failures in NWE

#57

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 24 May 2022, 21:16

Martin_Schenkel wrote:I often think back to an old discussion here about why the Allies didn't land in France in 1943. After all, they had won the Battle of the Atlantic by spring 1943 so it was all clear and easy after that. Well sure, we now know that the Battle of the Atlantic was finally won in the spring of 1943 but they didn't know that it was with such finality at the time and that it would be all clear and easy after that.
We SHOULD have invaded France in 1943 (or 1942). The BoA is a red herring. Shipping losses were <1% of sailings and not a single American troop transport was ever sunk by Uboats. BoA was a threat to shipping capacity but only a minor nuisance to actual shipments.
Last edited by TheMarcksPlan on 24 May 2022, 21:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US Army logistical failures in NWE

#58

Post by Michael Kenny » 24 May 2022, 22:41

Cult Icon wrote:
24 May 2022, 16:00

Not much of an echo chamber with the 10-20+ year allied biased (usual suspects) popping in to give their 2 cents. Is respect from such people, including malignant internet trolls even worth anything?...................

Include the Allied-biased internet trolls with 10-20 + years multi-forum track record posting made up propaganda
Sadly you have failed to notice that the world has move on from uncritical acceptance of the German view of WW2 made popular by (bad) authors like Max Hastings. Weaned on books with words like 'Hitler's Samurai/Spartans/Knights' in the title and unable to let go of the myth of 'Never beaten in a fair fight' fabrication. Forced to respond to even the mildest of implied criticism of the prowess of The Germans with a fervour that puts Pavlov's dogs in the shade. 20 years ago this view was the norm on the internet and anyone daring to suggest otherwise was literally mobbed by those who thought like you. Over the years this ill-informed fan-base have been shown the error of their ways and 90% have decided to move on and concentrate on propagating lunatic Conspiracy Theories. The remaining 10% are still active but are now the hunted rather than the hunter.
Some people look at the facts and reach a conclusion. Some people have a conclusion and look for facts that confirm it. The latter are easy prey for the former and It is amusing to see a pair here where one claims the German Army in Normandy was pathetic shambles and should have been defeated by June 8 1944 whilst the other is a fervent supporter of the 'Didn't they do well' version where the Germans outfought the enemy at every turn.

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Re: US Army logistical failures in NWE

#59

Post by Appleknocker27 » 24 May 2022, 23:02

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
24 May 2022, 21:20
Any thoughts on logistics? Or are you just here to tell me how to behave?

Cry me a freaking river, what a giant loss to the forum. That was the right decision - stick with it.
Having discussed this topic on forums like this since there's been an internet, while having an MA in WWII Military History and written a capstone thesis paper of Barbarossa logistics, I would have a few things to say. Also having been an Army Logistician at every level from Platoon to Theater and taught at Army Logistics University (ALU, FT Lee Va) I have quite a bit to say about the ETO as well.

However, my interests now lay elsewhere. Time is my currency, call me frugal... Cheers.

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Re: US Army logistical failures in NWE

#60

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 24 May 2022, 23:23

I'm curious - have Michael Kenny and Richard Anderson discussed Richard's career quantifying the German Army's combat effectiveness edge over Allied armies? Does Kenny have any quantitative evidence in rebuttal or is it Stephen Ambrose books?
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