Violent deaths of a bomber force.

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Englander
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Violent deaths of a bomber force.

#1

Post by Englander » 31 Mar 2004, 23:00

60 years ago tonight March 30/31 1944, Bomber Command suffered the most bloody, unmitigated disaster over the city of Nuremberg.95 bombers were lost in all - 64 Lancasters and 31 Halifaxes, 11.9 per cent of the force dispatched. It was the biggest loss the RAF suffered in the war. 545 of these brave men were killed and 152 captured. But never forgotten.

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WalterS
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#2

Post by WalterS » 01 Apr 2004, 01:30

There is an excellent account of this raid. "The Nuremberg Raid" by Martin Middlebrook. Everything that could go wrong for the RAF went wrong. Sir Arthur Harris made the decision to attack a target deep in Germany on a moonlit night, and at a time of year (early Spring) when the nights got shorter and shorter.

The German night fighter defense was at its peak in early 1944 and was equipped with a devastating new weapon called "schrage musik" (literally slanted music) which enabled German fighters to approach RAF bombers from behind and below, out of sight of the RAF crew and guns, and rip the bottom of the aircraft apart with twin 20mm cannons firing at fairly close range. Very few RAF crews survived to tell of this weapon and the RAF never figured it out until after the war.

The RAF bombers were also hampered by flying a long, straight inbound leg to the target which allowed German fighter directors to vector large numbers of aircraft (mostly JU-88 and Bf-110 twin engine fighters) to intercept. In a one hour period (2345-0045) the RAF lost bombers at the rate of one per minute.

The total losses were as Englander posted above. What was even more disheartening for RAF was the fact that very few bombs actually hit the target in Nuremberg and part of the force that did survive bombed the wrong town, Schweinfurt. Such was night bombing in 1944.


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Erich
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#3

Post by Erich » 01 Apr 2004, 02:30

just so that you are aware the Schragwaffen was not new as it was first used operationally in staffel strength in 5./NJG 5, August 1943 in their Bf 110G-4's. German claims were for over 120 RAF bombers on that terrible March night.

E ♠

Larso
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#4

Post by Larso » 01 Apr 2004, 04:47

A friend of mine wrote a book about his schools 'old boys' who served in war. One was on this raid. He said it was the practice to log the details of any friendly aircraft that were seen shotdown. On this night they stopped after the count hit 30. From that point they just stared straight ahead and prayed.

Another spoke of the seeing all four planes around them shot down one after the other. Until they were all alone......

The most fascinating was from a bloke who's story illustrated the trust a crew needed to have in each other, and the attitude needed to survive. The rear gunner called through with a series of instructions for the plane to go left and over, then up, then right etc. The pilot complied promptly but finally had to ask what it had all been about. The gunner replied that he'd seen a nightfighter and the manoevers were to put another Lancaster between it and them. Yikes.

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Bomber Command

#5

Post by Globalization41 » 01 Apr 2004, 05:09

I salute the brave airmen of R.A.F.
Bomber Command.

Globalization41

Halifax Bomber

Lancaster Bomber

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Erich
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#6

Post by Erich » 01 Apr 2004, 05:36

actually when a Lanc or Hali was attacked by a German nachtjäger the RAF pilot was to take the a/c into a violent corkscrew, with a slow dissention in altitude..............this from over three dozen interviews with former German night fighter crews.

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Englander
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#7

Post by Englander » 01 Apr 2004, 21:37

It was be remiss of me not to mention the VC won that tragic night.
Pilot Officer Cyril Barton, a Halifax pilot of No 578 Squadron, was awarded a posthumous Victoria Cross for carrying on to the target in the Nuremberg operation after his bomber was badly damaged in a fighter attack and 3 members of his crew baled out through a communication misunderstanding. Although the navigator and wireless operator were among the men who had parachuted, Barton decided to attempt the return flight to England in spite of the fact that only 3 engines were running. An unexpected wind took the Halifax steadily up the North Sea and it was short of fuel when the English coast was reached near Sunderland. Barton had to make a hurried forced landing when his engines failed through lack of fuel and he died in the crash, but his 3 remaining crew members were only slightly hurt. Pilot Officer Barton's Victoria Cross was the only one awarded during the Battle of Berlin, which had now officially ended.

Very few RAF crews survived to tell of this weapon and the RAF never figured it out until after the war.
Returning badly mauled bombers that were lucky enough to escape death, which had showed the cannon vertically pierced puncture wounds. Proving to RAF intelligence that in fact bombers were being attacked from below.
salute the brave airmen of R.A.F.
Bomber Command.

Globalization41

Halifax Bomber

Lancaster Bomber
Wow,is that right? Eight complete Lancaster frames in Canada.Impressive,very impressive.

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WalterS
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#8

Post by WalterS » 01 Apr 2004, 22:00

Englander wrote:
Returning badly mauled bombers that were lucky enough to escape death, which had showed the cannon vertically pierced puncture wounds. Proving to RAF intelligence that in fact bombers were being attacked from below.
This is quite true. However, for a long time the RAF thought that these planes had been struck by flak.

"So successful was Schrage Musik that few British aircraft managed to return and tell of being attacked by it. Those who did so probably did not know how they had been hit because the upward-firing guns used only a very faint tracer. And so the Germans were able to use this weapon for many months without Bomber Command being aware of it."

Martin Middlebrook, "The Nuremberg Raid," p. 72


It was be remiss of me not to mention the VC won that tragic night.
Indeed. A German pilot, Leutnant Wilhelm Seuss, flying a Bf-110 with the SN-2 radar and schrage musik shot down four Lancasters in about a half hour's time. It was truly a night of carnage for Bomber Command.

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Erich
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#9

Post by Erich » 02 Apr 2004, 04:33

109 claims for RAF heavies were documented by the Nachtjagd, with mulitple kills by pilots; with Oberleutnant "Tino" Becker of I./NJG 6 claiming 6 in his Bf 110G-4, making him the top scoring German nf pilot of the night. What a terrible blood-letting...........


Globalization41
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Lancaster Bomber

#10

Post by Globalization41 » 02 Apr 2004, 04:57

[Here's an interesting quote from the
Lancaster Bomber link:]


"Of the total of 7377 Lancasters built,
3932 were lost in action. During the war
Lancasters flew a total of 156 000 sorties
and dropped 608,612 tons of bombs.
55,000 aircrew, including 10,000
Canadians, were killed serving in Bomber
Command. During much of the war 5%
of the bombers which set out each night
failed to return making service in
bombers the most dangerous field in the
allied military."

[Globalization41.]

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KalaVelka
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#11

Post by KalaVelka » 02 Apr 2004, 11:59

545 of these brave men were killed
How many innocent German civilians died in that raid?

Kasper

Globalization41
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Civilians Killed in 1944 Air Raid

#12

Post by Globalization41 » 02 Apr 2004, 12:33

I'm guessing, probably a few hundred.

Globalization41

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#13

Post by Andreas » 02 Apr 2004, 15:03

KalaVelka wrote:
545 of these brave men were killed
How many innocent German civilians died in that raid?

Kasper
What's your point?

Mark V
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#14

Post by Mark V » 02 Apr 2004, 18:40

Andreas wrote:
What's your point?

Hi,

I am just guessing.

Maybe he ment that those civilians who died also should not be forgotten ever.

Mark V

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KalaVelka
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#15

Post by KalaVelka » 02 Apr 2004, 18:59

Mark V wrote:
Andreas wrote:
What's your point?

Hi,

I am just guessing.

Maybe he ment that those civilians who died also should not be forgotten ever.

Mark V
Yep. I dont see what "brave" is to murder innocent civilians?

Kasper

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