France 1944

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Lord Gort
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France 1944

Post by Lord Gort » 14 Jun 2004 16:11

Prior to D-day, how many tanks and fighter aircraft did the German have operational in Northern France?



regards,

RichTO90
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Re: France 1944

Post by RichTO90 » 14 Jun 2004 17:14

Lord Gort wrote:Prior to D-day, how many tanks and fighter aircraft did the German have operational in Northern France?
regards,
As of 31 May 1944 in Ob.West there were 1,244 operational Panzers and 318 operational Sturmgeschuetz.

As of 1 March 1944 in Ob.West the Heer had 2,506 artillery pieces and the Kriegsmarine had 2,413.

As of 1 June 1944 the units of Luftflotte 3 had 353 single-engine fighters, 55 twin-engine fighters and 95 night fighters on hand. I can dig out the operational totals as well if you need.

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Re: France 1944

Post by Darrin » 14 Jun 2004 18:54

Lord Gort wrote:Prior to D-day, how many tanks and fighter aircraft did the German have operational in Northern France?



regards,
You will notice that rich's numbers refer to all france. Maybe half this number were in northern france.

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Re: France 1944

Post by RichTO90 » 14 Jun 2004 21:02

Darrin wrote:
Lord Gort wrote:Prior to D-day, how many tanks and fighter aircraft did the German have operational in Northern France?



regards,
You will notice that rich's numbers refer to all france. Maybe half this number were in northern france.
No Darrin, you will notice that they refer to Ob.West. :D

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WalterS
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Post by WalterS » 14 Jun 2004 21:41

OB West covered all of German forces in the west: France, Belgium and Netherlands, I believe. Or did the Southern French forces come under Kesselring? I can't remember now.

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Post by RichTO90 » 15 Jun 2004 14:09

WalterS wrote:OB West covered all of German forces in the west: France, Belgium and Netherlands, I believe. Or did the Southern French forces come under Kesselring? I can't remember now.
Ob.West included HG-B, AG-G, 1, 7, 15, and 19 Armee, WBN, and PzGp-West. Basically, all forces in France and the Low Countries, outside the western German frontier.

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Lord Gort
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Post by Lord Gort » 17 Jun 2004 14:27

Thats incredible. In terms of tanks etc the Germans have a reasonable number. Were they decent models of tanks?


Also the number of fighters is significantly lower than th RAF had in 1940. Is this because the majority of fighters were defending German cities from bombing? Or were there a significant number of fighters on the eastern front?


Were the German plans for repelling an invasion realistic? Even had they realised on the 5th that Normandy was the real thing?


regards,


PS - Thanks especially to you RichTO90for the figures.

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Post by RichTO90 » 17 Jun 2004 14:50

Lord Gort wrote:Thats incredible. In terms of tanks etc the Germans have a reasonable number. Were they decent models of tanks?
There were 444 Panther, 667 Pz-IV and 71 Pz-III operational, with another 46 Tiger. The remaining 16 were Pz-II, apparently all used as specialty vehicles such as Muni-Trager.

Also the number of fighters is significantly lower than th RAF had in 1940. Is this because the majority of fighters were defending German cities from bombing? Or were there a significant number of fighters on the eastern front?
Yes. In theory the Germans planned on boosting air strength by transferring large numbers of aircraft from Luftflotte Reich. The June reinforcements included units with 158 single-engine fighters and 70 night fighters. Replacements also arrived, but were unabale to keep up with attrition.

In terms of single engine fighters, units committed in June totaled 511 aircraft on hand. They also received 498 replacement and 44 repaired aircraft, while 205 were transferred in from other units. But 377 were written off a combat losses and 206 to non-combat losses, while 45 were returned for major repair and overhaul and 229 were transferred out to other units. The end result was that as of 1 July total strength had dropped to 411. The situation improved slightly in July due to an increase in replacements and reinforcements and the return of damaged aircraft, while the weather slightly limited operations, reducing losses. By 1 August there were 688 aircraft on hand with the units. But August proved catastrophic as units suffered heavy losses in the scramble to transfer back to Germany (it appears that many aircraft - possibly as many as 262 - were abandoned on bases when they couldn't be flown off). By 1 September on hand strength had fallen to just 226.
Were the German plans for repelling an invasion realistic? Even had they realised on the 5th that Normandy was the real thing?
Given near perfect intelligence of Allied operations and assuming that Allied intelligence was as poor as the Germans was in reality, then it is likely the invasion could not have succeeded.

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Post by Darrin » 17 Jun 2004 18:21

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 51&start=0

This post has lots of relevent info about about the armour in normandy.

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Lord Gort
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Post by Lord Gort » 19 Jun 2004 21:31

Thanks Rich and Darrin for the information.


Rich, you say had the German known of the time and place of the landings that they would not have succeded, does this mean that despite Allied Airpower that the Germans could have curshed the Beachheads with the Panzers, or would the landing simply have failed to gaina beach head, due to even more horrific landings than Omaha?


Were the V rockets accurate enough to attack the beach heads, and was that possible.


So it was aircraft rather than lack of pilots that was the problem for the Germans in 1944?



How many fighters did the Germans have operational on the eastern front?


Do these statistics take into account ever worsening suupply problems, due to air attack and alck of oil etc?


regards,

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Post by Darrin » 21 Jun 2004 01:53

Lord Gort wrote:Thanks Rich and Darrin for the information.


Were the V rockets accurate enough to attack the beach heads, and was that possible.

So it was aircraft rather than lack of pilots that was the problem for the Germans in 1944?

Do these statistics take into account ever worsening suupply problems, due to air attack and alck of oil etc?


regards,


The V rockets were inaccurte and would have had little effect.

The ger were making large numbers of a/c even till the end of 44. The prob was that in early march losses in germany proper doubled because of the long range allied escorts. Loses also coninued in the east or incresed silghtly as well as large increase in the normandy area. The production of planes just couldn't keep up with all these incresed loses. Even more so the pilots numbers and traing declined. The trianing declined mainly due to shortages of oil. Oil that before mid 44 could be concentrated into 1 large active front and a few minor ones. That all changed June the 6th 1944.

The ger supply situation was bad in aug 44 in normandy but by mid dec it had improved that it lanched a moderatly sucessful att in the ard. The supply situation at this time may have improved for the army but the ger airforce had little to do with this battle.

Perhaps if the ger airfoce were strong enough to tackle the allies in a more even setting the ard and and normandy both would have been sucesful for the ger. But this is mainly hypothetical wishful thinking. If the ger were to attain this while at the same time dealing with the rus front and germany proper it would have to sacrifice something else.

The ger planed to switch from a combined air def to one mainly based on AA guns. Ger prod of basic metals etc remained high until mid 44. Even production of wepon systems and ammo remained high until late 44. The ger never planed to keep thier airforce stong and didn't miss it protecting thier production.

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Post by Andy H » 29 Jun 2004 01:26

By June 30th the LW had flown in some 1091 Day fighters, 112 Night fighters and some 75 Bombers. of which 419,30 & 19 were lost respectively,

Andy H

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