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Discussions on WW2 in Western Europe & the Atlantic.
verbe
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Post by verbe » 14 Aug 2002 15:37

Ok, I see your point now. I hadn't quite realized you were looking at it from such an American point of view.
Later,
TV

walterkaschner
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Post by walterkaschner » 14 Aug 2002 16:55

Verbe, please don't assume that Scott Smith's represents the "American" point of view on this issue. I can assure you he does not speak for all of us. Indeed, no one does.

Regards, Kaschner

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Scott Smith
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Post by Scott Smith » 14 Aug 2002 23:15

walterkaschner wrote:Verbe, please don't assume that Scott Smith's represents the "American" point of view on this issue. I can assure you he does not speak for all of us. Indeed, no one does.

That's right. I try to represent the much-maligned Isolationist point of view (because I agree with it and think I understand it).
:)

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Roberto
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Re: No War/No Holocaust!

Post by Roberto » 19 Aug 2002 18:46

Scott Smith wrote:
verbe wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:I wish that we had left you guys alone on that side of the pond and not gotten involved.

"we"?
Getting a bit personal isn't it, Scott? (like that "you guys" could carry on with the Jewish genocide, right!?)


Scott Smith wrote:No War/No Holocaust, IMHO.


Goebbels confirms this contention in his diary entry of 27.03.1942 - though not as Smith would like him to:

Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only about 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.

The former Gauleiter of Vienna, who is to carry this measure through, is doing it with considerable circumspection and according to a method that does not attract too much attention. A judgment is being visited upon the Jews that, while barbaric, is fully deserved by them. The prophesy which the Fuehrer made about them for having brought on a new world war is beginning to come true in a most terrible manner. One must not be sentimental in these matters. If we did not fight the Jews, they would destroy us. It's a life-and-death struggle between the Aryan race and the Jewish bacillus. No other government and no other regime would have the strength for such a global solution of this question. Here, too, the Fuehrer is the undismayed champion of a radical solution necessitated by conditions and therefore inexorable. Fortunately a whole series of possibilities presents itself for us in wartime that would be denied us in peacetime. We shall have to profit by this.

The ghettoes that will be emptied in the cities of the General Government now will be refilled with Jews thrown out of the Reich. This process is to be repeated from time to time. There is nothing funny in it for the Jews, and the fact that Jewry's representatives in England and America are today organizing and sponsoring the war against Germany must be paid for dearly by its representatives in Europe - and that's only right.


Source of quote:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/goe ... 942-mar-27

Emphasis is mine.

Ovidius
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Re: No War/No Holocaust!

Post by Ovidius » 19 Aug 2002 19:42

Roberto wrote:Emphasis is mine.


You should have emphasized the last paragraph of the quote. :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

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Roberto
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Re: No War/No Holocaust!

Post by Roberto » 19 Aug 2002 20:08

Ovidius wrote:
Roberto wrote:Emphasis is mine.


You should have emphasized the last paragraph of the quote. :mrgreen:

~Ovidius


The last paragraph reflects the ideological pretext, quite in line with Goebbels' diary entry on the meeting of 12 December 1941:

Bezüglich der Judenfrage ist der Führer entschlossen, reinen Tisch zu machen. Er hat den Juden prophezeit, daß, wenn sie noch einmal einen Weltkrieg herbeiführen würden, sie dabei ihre Vernichtung erleben würden. Das ist keine Phrase gewesen. Der Weltkrieg ist da, die Vernichtung des Judentums muß die notwendige Folge sein.

In respect of the Jewish Question, the Führer has decided to make a clean sweep. He prophesied to the Jews that if they again brought about a world war, they would experience their annihilation in it. That wasn't just a catch-word. The world war is here, and the annihilation of Jewry must be the necessary consequence.


Source of quote:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/nazis-words/

The one I highlighted, however, shows how Goebbels saw the relation between war and genocide in practical terms.

Ovidius
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Re: No War/No Holocaust!

Post by Ovidius » 19 Aug 2002 21:01

Roberto wrote:The last paragraph reflects the ideological pretext, quite in line with Goebbels' diary entry on the meeting of 12 December 1941.


"Pretext". What about the reason for a Holocaust/mass execution/murder/whatever, during wartime or peacetime? Why to expect a war to kill "them"? Why to kill them after all(if not for the only reason I could find to fit logic, and you've rejected tens of times as usual :mrgreen: )?

~Ovidius

atkif
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Post by atkif » 19 Aug 2002 21:31

Ovidius: '' ..I could find to fit logic.."
I don't follow.Could you please elaborate ?

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 19 Aug 2002 21:56

atkif wrote:Ovidius: '' ..I could find to fit logic.."
I don't follow.Could you please elaborate ?


I can elaborate, but I'm not very convinced I also want to. Even less considering that this started as a topic about the Battle of Britain, and went down just as soon as someone raised the issue of "war fought to save the European Jews".

~Ovidius

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 20 Aug 2002 12:23

Ovidius wrote:
Roberto wrote:The last paragraph reflects the ideological pretext, quite in line with Goebbels' diary entry on the meeting of 12 December 1941.


Ovidius wrote:[ "Pretext". What about the reason for a Holocaust/mass execution/murder/whatever, during wartime or peacetime?


The Nazis may indeed have believed there own propaganda, at least to some extent.

Ovidius wrote:Why to expect a war to kill "them"?


Goebbels, who wrote:

Fortunately a whole series of possibilities presents itself for us in wartime that would be denied us in peacetime. We shall have to profit by this.


would have known the answer to that.

We can only guess at his reasoning, but I would expect a rationale similar to the one according to which Hitler waited for the outbreak of the war to start Aktion T4, the killing of physically and/or mentally handicapped people, to have been part of it:

Hitler erschien, wie er 1935 dem Reichsärzteführer Gerhard Wagner gegenüber äußerte, “vorsichtiges Abwarten ratsam”, weil er in Friedenszeiten ungünstige Reaktionen der deutschen Öffentlichkeit und des Auslands befürchtete. Im Kriege jedoch – “wenn alle Welt auf den Gang der Kampfhandlungen schaut und der Wert der Menschenlebens ohnehin minder schwer wiegt” – schien ihm die “Befreiung des Volkes von der Last der Geisteskranken” am leichtesten tragbar zu sein.


Source of quote: Kogon/Langbein/Rückerl et al, Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas, pages 28/29.

My translation:

As he told the Reichsärzteführer Gerhard Wagner in 1935, Hitler considered “careful waiting to be recommendable”, because in peacetime he feared unfavorable reactions by the German public and from abroad. In wartime, however, - “when the whole world is focused on the development of military actions and human life carries less weight anyway” – he considered the “liberation of the people from the burden of the mentally ill” to be most easily supportable.


Ovidius wrote:Why to kill them after all (if not for the only reason I could find to fit logic, and you've rejected tens of times as usual :mrgreen: )?


What reason would that be, Ovi (assuming there is any conceivable reason for the murder of millions of people that would “fit logic”)?

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