Aircraft staging area in the UK?

[Thin Man Designs]

I'd like to know where newly built U.S. aircraft flew to in the UK. This includes bombers and fighters.

Was there a general marshalling point BEFORE these aircraft went to their specific bases, or did they fly from the US directly to them? Were any actually manufactured in Great Britain?

Any help or links on the subject would be much appreciated. My search has turned up little results..

[Takao]

I believe the North Atlantic ferry route terminated at Prestwick, Scotland.

[Hop]

Aircraft were flown to Prestwick (Scotland), Valley (Anglesey, Wales), Maghaberry (Northern Ireland) and St Mawgan, Cornwall.

From there they went to Base Air Depots, located at Burtonwood (nr Liverpool), Warton (Lancashire), Cluntoe (Northern Ireland) and Baverstock (Wiltshire)

Modifications were frequently carried out at the depots, for example when the 8th AF switched their fighters to 100/150 octane fuel in 1944, the work to convert them was carried out at the depots.

You can find a fair bit of info from Google if you search for "base air depot" in quotes.

None of the US aircraft were built in the UK, afaik, although the USAAF did use certain British aircraft at times, for instance they used Spitfires from Britain in 1942 and 43, Mosquitos for recce work, and Beaufighters as NFs (although only in the Med).

Fighters were usually shipped across the Atlantic, and required reassembly at the depots.

[Andy H]

Hi Hop

Didn´t the US use Spitfires in ´44 for Recce work around DDay?

Andy H

[Hop]

Spitfire PR IXs, iirc, but only in small numbers. They carried on using Spits in the fighter role into 1944 in the Med

[Huck]

Modifications were frequently carried out at the depots, for example when the 8th AF switched their fighters to 100/150 octane fuel in 1944, the work to convert them was carried out at the depots.

100/150 octane fuel was never operational with 8th AF. Stop spreading this incorrect information.

[Thin Man Designs]

Thank you for the info. All very helpful.

While we're on the topic, I need to know where the majority of all UK fighters and bombers were built. If you could simply tell me in which counties they were manufactured it would be much appreciated. Looking for 1940 and '44 locations..

[Hop]

100/150 octane fuel was never operational with 8th AF. Stop spreading this incorrect information.

Huck, it was.

You seem to have missed the stuff I posted in the last thread, so here it is again. It even includes a brief mention of Base Air Depots.






Thanks to Neil Sterling for finding these, and lots more info on 100/150 octane fuel, in the British archives.

The 8th AF converted most, if not all, their fighters based in Britain to 100/150 octane fuel. Indeed, when they stopped using 100/150 in spring 1945, they encountered problems in getting enough supply of 100/130.

While we're on the topic, I need to know where the majority of all UK fighters and bombers were built.

Do you mean UK as in RAF, (which would include aircraft based overseas, eg Middle East), or UK as in based in the UK (which would include foreign air forces based in the UK)?

If it's RAF, then the answer is easy, the majority would have been built in Britain.

If you could simply tell me in which counties they were manufactured it would be much appreciated. Looking for 1940 and '44 locations..

1940 is very easy either way.

In 1940 nearly all the aircraft based in the UK were British made. By that point only very small numbers of aircraft had been bought and delivered from America, mostly equipping the RAF overseas, but most RAF overseas squadrons still used (mostly obselete) British made aircraft.

In 1944, the vast majority of RAF aircraft in Britain were still British made. The majority of aircraft based in Britain might well have been American made, because of the huge numbers in the USAAF.

If you can narrow it down to British based or British operated (ie operated by the British worldwide) or even British operated in Britain, I can try and dig for more info. Or are you looking for production per type, eg X numbers of Hurricanes built in Britain, X number in Canada, X numbers of Lancasters built in Britain, X number in Canada, etc?

[Thin Man Designs]

Interesting stuff on octane fuel. Never knew.

I should have stated more clearly in my question that I realize RAF aircraft were mostly built in Britain. What I'm specifically researching is the MAJOR locations of aircraft industry (fighters/bombers), of the RAF, in Britain, and in which counties (ie: Lancashire, etc.). Thanks in advance for anyone's help.

[Hop]

How I misread counties as countries, I don't know, but I'll blame it on the medication and late night.

Almost every county would have been involved in aircraft production to some extent, making sub assemblies etc. There's a list of some of the sub contractors for Spitfire production in Spitfire The History, lots of garages making sub assemblies, shops being used as stores warehouses, etc.

Spitfires were assembled in factories in Hampshire, Berkshire, Wiltshire and Solihull (now West Midlands). About 12,000 in Solihull, 8000 in Southampton and it's shadows (Hampshire, Berkshire, Wiltshire)

Hurricanes were built by Hawker in Surrey and Buckinghamshire, by Gloster Aircraft in Gloucestershire and by Austin Cars in Birmingham (As well as in Canada)

All the Hawker Typhoons were built by Gloster in Gloucestershire, afaik.

Tempests were produced by Hawker in Buckinghamshire and by Gloster.

I'll dig out the bombers later, but these are only a guideline. The county boundaries have changed, some of the counties that exist now didn't in the 40s, and there were so many "shadow" factories set up some of them are hard to track down.

[Huck]

Hop, we already had this discussion.

NONE of the papers Neal found state the ACTUAL 100/150 fuel consumption with 8th Air Force. All the papers he released are about PLANNED consumption, which is completely useless. I know that 8th decided at the begining of 1944 that it would switch to 100/150 fuel if they could replace entirely the 100/130 fuel for their fighters. We know that the average mothly fuel consumption for fighters of 8th Air Force in 1944 was 20000 tons, so they requested it. There's nothing new here.

Also we know that from June 1944 they began tests at fighter group level, which meant that most pilots got their chance to test the new fuel. However, pilots were not pleased at all with the engine reliability of the engines using 100/150 fuel, especially since they had to fly over large bodies of water. Probably this was the reason why the introduction of 100/150 was reassessed once a large number of units moved on the continent at the end of war.

Nobody is denying that a small quantity of 100/150 fuel was used for testing by 8th Air Force until Nov 1944. Then experiments with Mustang stopped, and only P-47M was tested with this fuel in January, for only 2 weeks because of engine troubles. P-47M will fly again in late March for the final month of war. More P-47M were lost in accidents than the total claims P-47M pilots had. This says a lot about its reliability.

In conclusion if you want to convince someone that this fuel was operation with 8th Air Force you have to post TWO pieces of evidence:

1. the monthly 100/150 fuel consumption (do not post again PLANNED consumption, ONLY ACTUAL consumption is relevant)
2. the SEFC (Specific Engine Flight Chart) for the V-1650 on 100/150 fuel. Any operational engine had such a chart, for every fuel it could use. I have one for the R-2800 on 115/145 fuel, it is certain that SEFC charts were released for high octane fuels once they became operational (115/145 fuel was never used in ETO/MTO). If 100/150 fuel was used operationally then such a chart must exist. If not, you're out of luck.

[Hop]

Have you read the docs I posted Huck?

To quote:

"allocated air force tonnage of 18,000 tons per month". This is in Jan 1945.

"Eighth Air Force decided to use 100/150 fuel in their fighters even though it was realised some maintenance difficulties would be encountered."

"All of the replacement fighter aircraft being processed by Base Air Depot Area for Eighth Air Force, are being equipped with all necessary modifications for use of 150 grade fuel."

"some of these aircraft were being recieved by the Ninth Air Force and these aircraft had to be remodified by Ninth Air Force prior to putting them into service with 100/130 fuel here on the continent"

Is it your contention, Huck, that the depots in Britain were modifying fighters for 150 octane fuel, even though they were not being used with 150 octane fuel? The docs are pretty clear that they would then need to be modified back before they could use 100/130. Seems rather a pointless exercise to modify the aircraft when they got to Britain, if they then had to be modified straight back again.

This doc is dated between the 27th Jan and 5th Feb 1945. It's about a request from the 8th AF groups on the continent to use 150 octane fuel. According to you, the whole USAAF had abandoned it before then, yet the doc makes it clear the 8th WERE using it at that time, the 8th on the continent wanted to use it.

However, pilots were not pleased at all with the engine reliability of the engines using 100/150 fuel, especially since they had to fly over large bodies of water. Probably this was the reason why the introduction of 100/150 was reassessed once a large number of units moved on the continent at the end of war.

To quote the document:

"A reduction of service life of engines can be expected, however, the reduction does not make the use of 150 fuel prohibitive"

"Maintenance problems are increased but not prohibitive"

"Eighth AF decided to use 100/150 fuel in their fighters even though it was realised some maintenance difficulties would be encountered"

Nobody is denying that a small quantity of 100/150 fuel was used for testing by 8th Air Force until Nov 1944. Then experiments with Mustang stopped,

Can you provide some evidence for this please? You've made a lot of claims, I have posted original documents from the USAAF in Jan 1945 that directly contradict what you claim.

In conclusion if you want to convince someone that this fuel was operation with 8th Air Force you have to post TWO pieces of evidence:

Actually, having posted some evidence, signed by 2 generals and a colonel in the USAAF, I think the onus is on you to post some evidence to refute it. So far you have made several assertions, with nothing whatsoever to back them up.

1. the monthly 100/150 fuel consumption (do not post again PLANNED consumption, ONLY ACTUAL consumption is relevant)

I don't have anything beyond what you claim is "planned" consumption, but comes from documents dated AFTER the date in question. For example, from the deputy director of supply, US Staff, dated November 1944:

Current requirements of 100/150 grade are confined to the United Kingdom and amount to around 23,000 tons per month as follows:

USAAF (VIIIth Fighter Command) 20,000 tons
RAF (Fighter Command) 2,000 tons
Engine Manufacturers etc 1,000 tons

Note it says current requirments, not "planned requirements".

And again, this is dated November 44, and you are claiming:

"Nobody is denying that a small quantity of 100/150 fuel was used for testing by 8th Air Force until Nov 1944. Then experiments with Mustang stopped, and only P-47M was tested with this fuel in January, for only 2 weeks because of engine troubles"

So you say experiments were stopped in Nov 44, the documents from the time say the "requirement" was 20,000 tons in Nov 44. And that's from a document dated Nov 44.

2. the SEFC (Specific Engine Flight Chart) for the V-1650 on 100/150 fuel. Any operational engine had such a chart, for every fuel it could use. I have one for the R-2800 on 115/145 fuel, it is certain that SEFC charts were released for high octane fuels once they became operational (115/145 fuel was never used in ETO/MTO). If 100/150 fuel was used operationally then such a chart must exist. If not, you're out of luck.

No, if I don't have a specific document, that doesn't mean 150 octane was not used, it just means I don't have an engine chart. Of the 6 billion people in the world, I would think the vast majority do not have an engine chart for the V-1650-7 on any fuel.

I do happen to have a page from the British pilot's manual for the Mustang: