Who was the best intelligence secret service in WW 2?

Discussions on WW2 in Western Europe & the Atlantic.
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redcoat
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#31

Post by redcoat » 02 Dec 2004, 20:33

Harri wrote: I still have a strong opinion that some of the Germans "knew" or at least guessed correctly. That guess could be partly based on correct intelligence reports.
A few of the Germans did guess correctly, but they guessed correctly due to their own reasoning, not to anything German intelligence had told them.
There is no historical evidence that any member of the German military 'knew' the invasion beaches before D-Day
The reason why Germans were so badly surprised was more a chance, like it is many times in war. ?
Chance might be a reason for being taken by surprise once or twice, but being taken by surprise by all the Allied invasions, I don't think so
:roll:

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#32

Post by Duncan » 03 Dec 2004, 00:50

You need to consider the double agent known as Garbo to the Allies and Arabel to the German Intelligence. Real name was Juan Pujol and was considered one of the most successful double agents of WWII. He was decorated by both sides.

Employed by MI5, Garbo kept the Germans supplied with reports and allegedly convinced the Germans that the Allied invasion would cross the Pas de Calais. He managed to keep this up even after the D Day landings.

His book: Garbo - The Personal Story of the Most Successful Double Agent Ever....... by Juan Pujol with Nigel Smith, published 1985, ISBN 0297786024.


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Harri
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#33

Post by Harri » 03 Dec 2004, 01:01

In Finland we have a very good example on how military intelligence works. The case is Soviet strategic attack on 9.6.1944. Majority of Finns knew what was going on, even the place was known. What was not known was the exact date and time because the ultimate attack order is never given many months, weeks or even days before. Soviet attack in Karelian Isthmus was although a kind of surprise because the major attack (straight after landing in Normandy) was expected in Estonia against Germans. Does this sound somehow familiar? :)

I'll not go to details because this is off-topic but there are lots of common in Normandy landind and Soviet attack in Finland. I'm sure Soviet side states Finns knew nothing and it was a total surprise. So did the Allies. The truth was perhaps quite different on the other side.

There were also differences because Finns could read some part of Soviet encrypted wireless messages but Germans could not read Allied codes. One important code (used by the Soviet armoured troops) Finnish radio intelligence solved during the Soviet attack was in key role when Finnish troops stopped Soviet advance in Karelian Isthmus because armoured troops were always there from where the next attack came.

Finnish radio intelligence was a very important factor for our succesfull operations and without doubt one of the best of its kind in the world. It is sad that most of the records and files of Finnish Intelligence were either destroyed or moved to Sweded (Operation Stella Polaris) after the war. What we now know about it is actually the tip of the iceberg. In Sweded all material was microfilmed and given/sold to Western Intelligencies and everything else was probably destroyed later in Sweden. I think much of the German material was also destroyed or missed during and after the war.

Like I said I'm only realist in this case. :lol:

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Englander
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#34

Post by Englander » 03 Dec 2004, 23:51

Harri wrote:
Like I said I'm only realist in this case. :lol:
You've got some front.

You wrote this..
How Germans then knew what poem red by BBC meant that the attack will start soon, and later that the attack will start immediately? Rolling Eyes
Then this..
About Overlord. I doubt Germans didn't know about the operation and where it is directed.
And this..
(Rommel)...
He was without doubt also well informed by German intelligence.
Yes, it was a major failure to German intelligence but because they at the same time received also correct information there is no doubt Rommel could see what will happen.
Operation Overlord was surprisingly launched at the right moment it was pure luck that Germans were not fully ready
Even Eisenhower didn't know the moment of attack until he dicided so. How could the Germans then know that?
OK. I agree German intelligence sucked in this case.
The reason why Germans were so badly surprised was more a chance, like it is many times in war.
Do us a favour and look up the word contradiction! And knock those emoticons on the head please.

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Harri
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#35

Post by Harri » 04 Dec 2004, 00:06

Do you want to prove something? :lol:

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Englander
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#36

Post by Englander » 04 Dec 2004, 00:19

No...But you can come round my house and watch the film " The Longest Day "

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Harri
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#37

Post by Harri » 04 Dec 2004, 01:03

:P I have seen it several times because I recorded it long time ago. I think I'll have to watch it once again now when you mentioned it.

I have also red the book, it is very good besides. But I have also red other books and seen other films. (I think I don't dare to use these emoticons any more...well, let it go once more...) :wink:

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red devil
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#38

Post by red devil » 10 Dec 2004, 16:25

Once the date for the invasion of France/Continent was fixed at 5th June various exercises were put into place, including Exercise Tiger at slapton, Devon, April 1944. On this exercise were 10 officers who each had a fully detailed map of the real beaches, codenames at Normandy. After a monumental cockup in which 917 US servicemen died, Eisenhower ordered every scrap of material be removed from the beaches, they were to be swept clean of everything, as if they had not been there, and if he did not personally see 10 dead officer bodies with 10 maps, the invasion was to be called off, indefinitely.

At the same time General Patton, in disgrace with the british public and his own leaders, was given command of a fictional army based in Kent along with thousands of dummy rubberoid tanks, planes and equipment, heavily defended by AA guns etc. He toured the region giving public appearances and talks to village and town groups, making himself as high profile as he could and the Germans swallowed it. One of the reasons was that it was Patton himself who commanded this "army" - the Germans feared him as an unpredicatable renegade who got the job done. Patton proved this later on with his forced march across the Ardennes to force the German push back. Nobody thought he could do it, except him!

Even after the invasion took place, 24 hours late, the Germans were still sure that this was diversionary and that Patton was coming across to hit Calais and seize the ports.

There were no enemy agents operating in the UK that were not under direct control of British Intelligence. They reported what we wanted them to report. But, however, traitors were another problem altogether. We could not control that element of our society unless they gave themselves away. British Counter Intelligence, under the control of a Col Pinto, was supreme at catching enemy agents and it is thought that not one actually did operate freely the whole war.

German Intelligence (bDienst) had cracked the Brtish Naval code and used it with some success. Even when they cracked a message that contained information they themselves had given out via enigma, they did not realise the significance. Most of the time they put it down to leaks! Doenitz himself questioned the very same thing with his staff, how can the British reroute their ships around a waiting wolfpack if they do not know it is there? He suspected enigma, but was assured time and time again that it was very definitely secure.

American Intelligence was, rightly, concentrated in the Pacific. That, is a whole chapter in awhole volume in itself!!

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Zitadelle
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#39

Post by Zitadelle » 12 Dec 2004, 10:59

Shrek wrote:Stalin had a top grade agent in Sorge in Japan - but he did not believe the information that he got.
Actually he did believe Sorge later on... he was able to transfer a bunch of division from the eastern border with china/japan that ultimately put up a lot of the defense of Moscow in 1941,when it was learned that Japan would not invade the soviet union again. Could have been the turning point of the war with germany actually.

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