Seelöwe: British Defensive Measures - Naval and Air Ops

Discussions on WW2 in Western Europe & the Atlantic.
RichTO90
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Post by RichTO90 » 02 Aug 2007 03:36

phylo_roadking wrote:I know this is a long shot, but is there anyone on here who a a pilot-trainee in the summer of 1940 - or knows anyone who was? Given the 350 figure, its possible aircraft were converted then returned to their training schools - so trainees may have done their initial hours on Moths with bomb racks...?
Sadly, two years ago at Kew I managed to copy a lot of the primary operational records, but had only begun to examine the records of the training command when time ran out. :( (It's amazing how fast two weeks go when you're having fun.) And I don't think I have anything that I did copy that has information on the aircraft strength in the training command. However, IIRC under CROMWELL all the OTU were to come under command of Bommber, Fighter, and Coastal Command for operations, which are a fair number of modern aircraft. As of 29 September the operational strengths for the Fighter Command OTU were:

5 OTU
9 Bleinheim
20 Hurricane
5 Master
3 Battle TT (?)
2 Defiant
3 Magister
2 Harvard
1 Mentor

6 OTU
33 Hurricane
6 Master
2 Battle TT
4 Harvard

7 OTU
25 Spitfire
7 Master
5 Battle TT
1 Magister
2 Battle T (?)

So what's the difference between a Battle T and a Battle TT? 8O

Walter_Warlimont
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Since The Tiger Moth Being Was A Two Seat Trainer

Post by Walter_Warlimont » 02 Aug 2007 03:40

And with a Full tank of Fuel + the Two Pilots aboard & IF the plane was in top running order, it would do a top speed of 100 Miles Per Hour.

Now, you add on an additional 160 Pounds of Bombs that are carried under the Wings, 4 on each side, there is no way that the Tiger Moth is going to consistently travel at 100 Miles Per Hour, nor will it travel as far as it normally would have, without the Bombs carried underneath it.

What could they possibly do speed wise then?

60? Maybe 75 miles per hour?

Walter_Warlimont
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Post by Walter_Warlimont » 02 Aug 2007 03:44

RichTO90 wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:I know this is a long shot, but is there anyone on here who a a pilot-trainee in the summer of 1940 - or knows anyone who was? Given the 350 figure, its possible aircraft were converted then returned to their training schools - so trainees may have done their initial hours on Moths with bomb racks...?
Sadly, two years ago at Kew I managed to copy a lot of the primary operational records, but had only begun to examine the records of the training command when time ran out. :( (It's amazing how fast two weeks go when you're having fun.) And I don't think I have anything that I did copy that has information on the aircraft strength in the training command. However, IIRC under CROMWELL all the OTU were to come under command of Bommber, Fighter, and Coastal Command for operations, which are a fair number of modern aircraft. As of 29 September the operational strengths for the Fighter Command OTU were:

5 OTU
9 Bleinheim
20 Hurricane
5 Master
3 Battle TT (?)
2 Defiant
3 Magister
2 Harvard
1 Mentor

6 OTU
33 Hurricane
6 Master
2 Battle TT
4 Harvard

7 OTU
25 Spitfire
7 Master
5 Battle TT
1 Magister
2 Battle T (?)

So what's the difference between a Battle T and a Battle TT? 8O
What I want to know is, what does OTU stand for?

Also, what are Magister's, Master's & Mentor's?

I'm a little in the dark about both The Battle T & The TT as well.

RichTO90
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Post by RichTO90 » 02 Aug 2007 04:17

Walter_Warlimont wrote:What I want to know is, what does OTU stand for?

Also, what are Magister's, Master's & Mentor's?

I'm a little in the dark about both The Battle T & The TT as well.
S'okay, the Brits do love their obscure acronyms, they give me a headache too. :D

OTU = Operational Training Unit, which was a unit designed to take the fledgling pilot out of primary training and turn him into an operational pilot. First step were advanced flight trainers, which are the Magister's, Master's, Mentor's, and Harvards. They learned to handle more complicated and powerful aircraft and were also given rudimentary air tactics training. From there they moved onto the actual aircraft they were to fly and were given formation flying training and some additional air tactics. Then it was off to an operational squadron....if they didn't crash and burn or wash out.

RichTO90
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Re: Since The Tiger Moth Being Was A Two Seat Trainer

Post by RichTO90 » 02 Aug 2007 04:29

Walter_Warlimont wrote:And with a Full tank of Fuel + the Two Pilots aboard & IF the plane was in top running order, it would do a top speed of 100 Miles Per Hour.
Oh dear, I see why you are confused. They were dual-control aircraft, because they were intended as trainers. So they had two pilot positions, one for the instructor and one for the student. But they didn't require two pilots and there are no indications that BANQUET was intended to be so extravagent with them.
Now, you add on an additional 160 Pounds of Bombs that are carried under the Wings, 4 on each side, there is no way that the Tiger Moth is going to consistently travel at 100 Miles Per Hour, nor will it travel as far as it normally would have, without the Bombs carried underneath it.
Sorry, but no. One pilot, plus one pilots weight worth of bombs. Drag would be problematic, but unlikely to be significant given the relatively small cross section of the bombs and the low top speed anyway. With a rated top speed of 109 MPH (although 104 MPH according to Weal, Weal, and Barker, with a 90 MPH cruising speed) fully loaded (i.e., with gas, instructor and student) it is unlikely to drop much below 100 MPH, if that, just from the minimal drag induced by the bombs.

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edward_n_kelly
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Post by edward_n_kelly » 02 Aug 2007 05:24

Mistype of the single T for the TT ? TT = Target Tug. Bomb equipment suppressed and fitted with winch and drogue for use as a target aircraft.

Edward

JonS
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Post by JonS » 02 Aug 2007 05:25

RichTO90 wrote: So what's the difference between a Battle T and a Battle TT? 8O
Target Tow?

RichTO90
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Post by RichTO90 » 02 Aug 2007 14:27

edward_n_kelly wrote:Mistype of the single T for the TT ? TT = Target Tug. Bomb equipment suppressed and fitted with winch and drogue for use as a target aircraft.

Edward
Ah, that makes sense, Target Tug. But 'TT' and 'T' appear seperately in both 6 and 7 OTU on different lines (6 OTU just didn't have any operational on 29 September), so they are obviously distinct types. Maybe one is a 'Target' and the other a 'Target Tug'? :lol:

Hop
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Post by Hop » 02 Aug 2007 14:43

TT is target tug, T is trainer. 100 Battles were built with a distinct dual cockpit layout for use as dual control trainers. It turned what was a rather nice looking aircraft into one of the ugliest to fly during the war.

Edit: Tried to find a decent picture but couldn't, but there's some photos of a completed model at http://su22m4.free.fr/battle.htm

johnbryan
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Post by johnbryan » 05 Aug 2007 18:30

I found this to be a fascinating and scholarly read that goes far to explain why Sealion was hopeless from the very beginning.

http://www.rusi.org/research/militarysc ... DAE3AB61C/

Walter_Warlimont
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Disbursement of Royal Navy & Commonwealth Ships

Post by Walter_Warlimont » 08 Aug 2007 01:19

Now, I realize that I might not have every ship accounted for, but what I do have, it is very interesting to note where exactly these vessels are & under what circumstances they are located where they are.

The Following Ships Were Located @ The Following Bases As of September 15th, 1940.

The Home Fleet @ Scapa Flow

HMS Centurion & Iron Duke (The Gunless WWI Dreadnought Battleships)
HMS Repulse (Battlecruiser)
4 Heavy Cruisers, 5 Light Cruisers, 4 Light Anti-Aircraft Cruisers, 32 Destroyers & 21 Escort Destroyers.

Warships From The Base @ Scapa Flow Under Repair

(Under Repair Someplace Else)

6 Heavy Cruisers, 1 Light Cruiser & 2 Destroyers (None of The Above)

The Home Fleet @ The Rosyth, Scotland Naval Base in The Firth of Forth

HMS Nelson (Battleship)
HMS Revenge (Dreadnought Battleship)
HMS Hood (Battlecruiser)
4 Heavy Cruisers, 1 Light Anti-Aircraft Cruiser & 22 Destroyers

Warships Under Repair @ The Rosyth, Scotland Naval Base

1 Fleet Aircraft Carrier (Furious), 1 Battleship (Rodney), 1 Dreadnought Battleship (Queen Elizabeth Undergoing Complete Refit Until 1941), 1 Light Cruiser & 7 Destroyers

Warships Under Repair @ Portsmouth

1 Destroyer

Warships Based @ Reykjavik, Iceland

1 Light Cruiser & 3 Destroyers

Force H Based @ Gibraltar

HMS Ark Royal (Fleet Aircraft Carrier)
HMS Argus (Light Aircraft Carrier)
HMS Resolution (Dreadnought Battleship)
HMS Warspite (Dreadnought Battleship)
HMS Renown (Battlecruiser)
4 Heavy Cruisers, 2 Light Cruisers, 1 Light Anti-Aircraft Cruiser & 23 Destroyers

Warships Under Repair @ Gibraltar

1 Light Aircraft Carrier (Hermes), 1 Dreadnought Battleship (Malaya) & 1 Destroyer

In The Western Med, Going To Gibraltar

HMS Barham (Dreadnought Battleship)

Shelling & Raiding Benghazi, Libya

HMS Valiant (Dreadnought Battleship)

Force Z Based @ Alexandria, Egypt

HMS Eagle (Aircraft Carrier)
HMS Illustrious (Aircraft Carrier)
HMS Ramillies (Dreadnought Battleship)
HMS Royal Sovereign (Dreadnought Battleship)
3 Heavy Cruisers, 4 Light Cruisers, 1 Light Anti-Aircraft Cruiser & 30 Destroyers

Warships Based @ Halifax, Canada

22 Destroyers

On Escort Duty w/The North Atlantic Convoys

2 Free French Dreadnought Battleships (Courbet & Paris) & 7 Destroyers

In The Caribbean Based @ The Panama Canal

1 Light Cruiser

Based @ The Falkland Islands in The South Central Atlantic

1 Heavy Cruiser & 6 Light Cruisers

Based @ The Port of Suez in The Gulf of The Suez in The Red Sea

2 Destroyers

Based @ Diego Garcia in The Chagos Archipelago Islands in The Indian Ocean

1 Heavy Cruiser & 1 Light Anti-Aircraft Cruiser

Based @ Singapore, Malaysia

3 Heavy Cruisers, 1 Light Cruiser & 3 Destroyers

Based @ Melbourne, Australia

1 Heavy Cruiser & 1 Light Cruiser

Warships Under Repair @ Melbourne, Australia

1 Light Cruiser (Hobart)

Based @ New Caledonia in The South Pacific Just East of Australia

1 Free French Destroyer

Based @ New Guinea in The South Pacific

1 Heavy Cruiser

Based @ Auckland, New Zealand

2 Light Cruisers

Based @ Hong Kong, China

3 Destroyers

Based @ The San Diego Naval Base in San Diego, California

2 Royal Canadian Destroyers

(Apparently Andreas Moved My New Topic To Here)

RichTO90
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Re: Disbursement of Royal Navy & Commonwealth Ships

Post by RichTO90 » 08 Aug 2007 04:00

Walter_Warlimont wrote:Now, I realize that I might not have every ship accounted for, but what I do have, it is very interesting to note where exactly these vessels are & under what circumstances they are located where they are.
Very good, but it is important to realize that the listing as given is somewhat schematic with regards to the actual locations of these vessels. So for example, many of the destroyers and sloops (escort destroyers) listed as part of the Home Fleet were not actual at Scapa Flow, they were deployed at various forward locations by squadron, but since the Admiral 'D' (the Admiral in Command of the Destroyer force) was based at Scapa the convention was that was their 'base' and they were simply attached at other ports. A similar and slightly detailed list has been put up here before I think? But I'm not sure if the complete one has or not? So here:

Dispositions of Warships in Home Waters, 1600hrs/16 September 1940

Scapa Flow (26 hrs from Dungeness at 20kts)
1 BC: Repulse (RA(D)), 1 BM: Erebus
1 CV: Furious (12 Skua, 18 Swordfish, 6 Gladiator)
2 CA: Berwick, Norfolk
1 CL: Glasgow
1 CLAA: Curacao
6 DD: Somali (D6), Eskimo, Matabele, Duncan, Versatile (under repair for damage to stern until 17 Sep), Vimy
1 DE: Eglington
1 SS: L.23
5 ML: Southern Prince, Menestheus, Port Napier, Port Quebec, Agamemnon
6 MS: Bramble, Britomart, Hazard, Hebe, Speedy, Seagull (in refit until?)

Dundee (19 hrs)
3 TB: Z.5 (NL), Z.6 (NL), Z.8 (NL)
3 SS: L.26, O.21 (NL), O.24 (NL)

Tyne:
1 CL: Nigeria (completed working up 23 September, joined fleet at Scapa on 29 Sep, assigned to 10th CS)
1 CL: Kenya (completed 27 Sep, joined fleet at Scapa for working up 29 Sep, assigned to 10th CS)

Rosyth (18hrs)
2 BB: Nelson (C-in-C), Rodney
1 BC: Hood (VA, BCS)
3 CLAA: Naiad (RA, CS15), Bonadventure, Cairo (RA, AAS)
14 DD: Cossack (D4), Maori, Sikh, Zulu, Jackal, Kashmir, Kipling, Ashanti, Bedouin, Punjabi, Tartar, Electra, Vortigern, Fame (damaged off Norway in bombing attack on 6 Jul 40 and repair completed 5 October)
4 DE: Valorous, Vega, Verdun, Woolston
1 TB: Sleipner (NO)
2 SS: Seawolf, Snapper,

Blyth (14 hrs)
3 SS: Sturgeon, Swordfish, Ursula

Humber (10 hrs)
3 CL: Manchester (VA, CS18), Southampton (RA, CS18), Birmingham
5 DD: Javelin (D5), Jupiter, Jaguar, Kelvin, Watchman

Lowestoft (5 hrs):
1 TB: Draug (NO),
1 MTB: MTB.18

Harwich (3 5 hrs)
6 DD: Malcolm (D16), Venomous, Verity, Wild Swan, Wivern, Worcester
1 SS: H 44
11 MTB: MTB.14, MTB.15, MTB.16, MTB.17, MTB.22, MTB.28, MTB.29, MTB.31, MTB.32, MTB.34, MTB.67, MTB.68

London (4 5 hrs)
DD: Margaree (RCN) (damaged by bomb splinters 17 Sep)
1 MTB: MTB.24

Sheerness/Chatham (4 hrs)
3 CL: Galatea (VA, CS2, (struck a mine night of 8/9 September and in repair at Chatham until 8 Jan 41), Aurora, Arethusa (rejoined 30 September after completing repairs at Chatham)
10 DD: Brilliant, Icarus, Impulsive, Intrepid, Campbell (D21), Venetia, Vesper, Vivacious, Walpole, Foxhound (in refit from 11 Aug 40 to 12 Oct 40)
12 DE: Cattistock, Eglinton, Holderness (under repair from mine damage until 22 September), Garth, Hambledon, Quorn, Vanity, Vimiera, Wallace, Westminster, Winchester, Wolsey

Dover (1 hr)
2 MTB: MTB.6, MTB.72

Portsmouth (3 5 hrs)
1 CL: Cardiff
12 DD: Beagle, Bulldog, Havelock (D9), Harvester, Hesperus, Highlander, Vanoc, Viscount, Saladin, Sardonyx, Sturdy, Mistral
2 DE: Berkeley, Fernie
5 TB: Branlebas, L'Incomprise, La Cordeliere, La Flore, Z 7
2 SS: Ondine, Orion
6 MTB: MTB.3, MTB.4, MTB.5, MTB.25, MTB.30, MTB.33

Southampton (4 hrs)
2 DD: Volunteer, Wolverine

Portland (5 hrs)
2 MTB: MTB.69, MTB.70

Plymouth (8 hrs)
1 BB: Revenge
2 CL: Newcastle, Emerald
11 DD: Isis, Broke, Vansittart, Whitehall, Westcott, Blyskawica (PO), Burza (PO), Ouragan (FFNL), Garland (PO)
2 TB: Bouclier (FFNL) (in collision 17 Sep under repair until 30 Sep), La Melpomene (FFNL),

Milford Haven (14 hrs)
1 TB: G.13 (NL)

Liverpool (18 5hrs)
3 DD: Vanquisher, Walker, Sabre

Firth of Clyde (21 5 hrs)
1 CA: Suffolk (damaged by air attack off Norway 16 Apr 40 and under repair until 24 Feb 41)
1 CL: Sheffield
12 DD: Keppel (D12), Achates, Active, Amazon, Ambuscade, Antelope, Anthony, Arrow, Douglas (ran aground 17 Sep and under repair until 30 Sep), Ottawa (RCN), Skeena (RCN), St Laurent (RCN)
6 SS: Tigris, Otway, Upright, B.1 (NO), H.31, H.34
1 CLAA: Phoebe (completed 2 October, joined fleet at Scapa for working up 4 Oct, assigned to 15th CS)

Greenock:
1 CL: Edinburgh (refit completed 29 Oct 40, began working up on 5 Nov 1940)
1 CL: Fiji (torpedoed 1 Sep 40 and in repair at Greenock until 31 January 1941)
1 DD: Mashona (refit completed 8 Oct 40)

Glasgow:
1 CA: Sussex (damaged by German air attack while in dry dock and under repair until 9 Aug 42)
1 DD: Fearless (damaged in collision on 1 Aug 40 and in repair and then refit until 8 Oct 40)

Oban/Tobermory (22 5 hrs)
3 SS: H.32, H.33, H.50

Belfast/Londonderry (20 hrs)
3 DD: Shikari, Scimitar, Skate

Destroyers at Sea (patrols, escorting convoys etc )
8 DD: Veteran (left Harwich 17 Sep), Witherington (left Plymouth 16 Sep), MacKay (left Plymouth 15 Sep), Hurricane (left Liverpool 15 Sep), Winchelsea (left Liverpool 13 Sep), Warwick (left Liverpool 11 Sep), Witch (left Belfast 17 Sep), Wanderer (left Londonderry 16 Sep)
2 DE: Vivien (left Rosyth 16 Sep), Wolfhound (left Rosyth 15 Sep),
1 TB: G.15 (NL) (left Plymouth 16 Sep)

Submarines on patrol
17 SS: H.49, H.43, L.27, Clyde, Sunfish, Tuna, Taku, Talisman, Tribune, Cachalot, Porpoise, Utmost, O.9 (NL), O.22 (NL), O.23 (NL), Rubis (FFNL), Wilk (PO)

Given that the German invasion forces would need 24/7 supply, RN ships further a field (and excluding the Med Fleet & Far East) would/could also become involved, such as

Disposition of British Warships in the North Atlantic
Halifax
3 DD: Restigouche (RCN), Assiniboine (RCN), Saguenay (RCN)

Gibraltar
1 BC: Renown (VA, Force "H")
8 DD: Gallant, Griffin, Encounter, Hotspur, Vidette, Velox, Wishart, Wrestler

Freetown (Force M, for Dakar landings)
2 BB: Barham, Resolution
2 CV: Ark Royal (24 Skua, 30 Swordfish), Argus (no aircraft, en route to Scapa)
3 CA: Devonshire (VA, CS1), Australia (RAN), Cornwall
11 DD: Inglefield (D3), Echo, Eclipse, Escapade, Faulknor (D8), Firedrake, Foresight, Forester, Fortune, Fury, Greyhound

Durban:
Royal Sovereign

Lagos:
1 CL: Dragon

Bermuda:
1 CL: Dunedin

Tortola:
1 CL: Caradoc

At Sea
1 CA Cumberland
3 CL: Enterprise, Delhi, Despatch
1 SS: O.14 (NL)

Note this list does not include the large numbers of MMS trawlers and ASW trawlers stationed at these ports, nor those in the Pacific, Indian Ocean, or Mediteranean.
(Apparently Andreas Moved My New Topic To Here)
Well, after all, you did post about teh Royal Navy and this thread is about "Seelöwe: British Defensive Measures - Naval and Air Ops"? :D

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Now Wait A Minute Rich

Post by Walter_Warlimont » 08 Aug 2007 06:28

IF.....The Invasion landings take place on the Morning of September 25th, 1940, then there is no way that Force M @ Dakar can be recalled as they are already committed to that mission.

What's more, The Resolution being Badly & Severely Damaged @ Dakar will be Towed by The Barham to Freetown (If Memory Serves).

And even if they were called upon to make haste for English Waters, they would have to stop off @ Gibraltar first for replenishment of Fuel, Ammo, Etc,......

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Tim Smith
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Post by Tim Smith » 08 Aug 2007 07:31

So, you don't think the Dakar mission would be postponed if a German invasion of England was imminent? If not, why not?

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Bronsky
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Post by Bronsky » 08 Aug 2007 08:25

Sure, but who needs them?

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