Seelöwe: British Defensive Measures - Naval and Air Ops

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Walter_Warlimont
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Post by Walter_Warlimont » 08 Aug 2007 09:20

Tim Smith wrote:So, you don't think the Dakar mission would be postponed if a German invasion of England was imminent? If not, why not?
Well gee willickers Timmy, it's gonna be kinda hard to postpone the Mission @ Dakar that is taking place on September 23rd - 25th, 1940 as is evidenced by the following Link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dakar

If Sealion takes place on the Morning of September 25th, 1940, when the damage to The Dakar force has already been done.

And if The Brits thought the Invasion was Imminent (Which They Did), then they wouldn't have gone on with Operation Menace (Which They Did) as well as sending Troops & Tanks to North Africa when Alanbrooke needed them so badly in England, because he believed The Invasion was coming.

Anything Else?????

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 08 Aug 2007 09:36

Walter_Warlimont wrote:And if The Brits thought the Invasion was Imminent (Which They Did), then they wouldn't have gone on with Operation Menace (Which They Did) as well as sending Troops & Tanks to North Africa when Alanbrooke needed them so badly in England, because he believed The Invasion was coming.
Since Force M was detached from Force H at Gibraltar, what has all this got to do with the defense of home waters?

All the best

Andreas

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Bronsky
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Post by Bronsky » 08 Aug 2007 11:42

Walter_Warlimont wrote:And if The Brits thought the Invasion was Imminent (Which They Did), then they wouldn't have gone on with Operation Menace (Which They Did)
Given how Menace was a failure, that is bad how?
Walter_Warlimont wrote:as well as sending Troops & Tanks to North Africa when Alanbrooke needed them so badly in England, because he believed The Invasion was coming.
The CIGS was Dill at the time.

A list of convoys is here, please tell us when you believe that they would have stopped sending troops so we can determine which convoys don't make it to Egypt.

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 08 Aug 2007 12:29

Please note that I have added (at long last) the minor vessel listings for Nore Command as of 4pm September 15th 1940 from ADM 208/3.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=1095788

Regards

Andy H

RichTO90
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Re: Now Wait A Minute Rich

Post by RichTO90 » 08 Aug 2007 17:07

Walter_Warlimont wrote:IF.....The Invasion landings take place on the Morning of September 25th, 1940, then there is no way that Force M @ Dakar can be recalled as they are already committed to that mission.
One point for your consideration, the landings cannot take place on 25 September since it is less than a half-moon, which was a planning requirment (0.436% illuminated as of 2400 24 September and 0.332 as of 2400 25 September). The 23rd is the last day in this phase where the conditions were acceptable (the weather was actually good then too).

But I have to ask what the significance of Force M being at Dakar is anyway? Neither they of Force H were considered part of the anti-invasion deployment, although they might have been called upon as reinforcements if required? I really only included them, as well as the vessels under repair, to be complete and since there is occasionally controversy regarding what was available where.
What's more, The Resolution being Badly & Severely Damaged @ Dakar will be Towed by The Barham to Freetown (If Memory Serves).
Yep, she couldn't steam, although she had no losses to personnel. They reached Freetown on the 29th and she was given temprary repairs, steaming under her own power to Gibralter arriving on 16 December, staying there until March 41 when she went to Portsmouth, but was then sent to Philadelphia were she was worked on from April to September 41.
And even if they were called upon to make haste for English Waters, they would have to stop off @ Gibraltar first for replenishment of Fuel, Ammo, Etc,......
Again, I made no claim that they were part of an anti-invasion force, they are simply part of the strength of the Royal Navy under consideration.

Walter_Warlimont
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Post by Walter_Warlimont » 08 Aug 2007 17:54

Andreas wrote:
Walter_Warlimont wrote:And if The Brits thought the Invasion was Imminent (Which They Did), then they wouldn't have gone on with Operation Menace (Which They Did) as well as sending Troops & Tanks to North Africa when Alanbrooke needed them so badly in England, because he believed The Invasion was coming.
Since Force M was detached from Force H at Gibraltar, what has all this got to do with the defense of home waters?

All the best

Andreas
That's not entirely true Andreas.

HMS BARHAM was enroute to Gibraltar from Alexandria on September 15th, 1940 to take part in Operation Menace.

There was also a Destroyer (or) a Light Cruiser whose name I can't remember that was dispatched from Scapa Flow for Operation Menace, that was so severely damaged in an attack after coming around Northwestern Ireland that another ship had to take it's place in the Operation.

Man, I got that ships name on the tip of my tongue.

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Re: Now Wait A Minute Rich

Post by Walter_Warlimont » 08 Aug 2007 18:16

Walter_Warlimont wrote:IF.....The Invasion landings take place on the Morning of September 25th, 1940, then there is no way that Force M @ Dakar can be recalled as they are already committed to that mission.
Rich wrote:One point for your consideration, the landings cannot take place on 25 September since it is less than a half-moon, which was a planning requirment (0.436% illuminated as of 2400 24 September and 0.332 as of 2400 25 September). The 23rd is the last day in this phase where the conditions were acceptable (the weather was actually good then too).
How in the bloody blue blazes of hell did you manage to come up with that information? I'm not chastising you for being forthcoming with it, I'm just curious as to how you came about that information.

Hell, the morning of the 24th works better for me anyway.

Thanks Rich.
Rich wrote:But I have to ask what the significance of Force M being at Dakar is anyway? Neither they or Force H were considered part of the anti-invasion deployment, although they might have been called upon as reinforcements if required? I really only included them, as well as the vessels under repair, to be complete and since there is occasionally controversy regarding what was available where.
Well, when you have a debate with NUTS as I & leandros have been having elsewhere (Not Here), the topic of debate centers around Force H & M being called upon to defend England, once they receive either The Cromwell Order or The Sir Francis Drake Order.
Walter_Warlimont wrote:What's more, The Resolution being Badly & Severely Damaged @ Dakar will be Towed by The Barham to Freetown (If Memory Serves).
Rich wrote:Yep, she couldn't steam, although she had no losses to personnel. They reached Freetown on the 29th and she was given temprary repairs, steaming under her own power to Gibralter arriving on 16 December, staying there until March 41 when she went to Portsmouth, but was then sent to Philadelphia were she was worked on from April to September 41.
Walter_Warlimont wrote:And even if they were called upon to make haste for English Waters, they would have to stop off @ Gibraltar first for replenishment of Fuel, Ammo, Etc,......
Again, I made no claim that they were part of an anti-invasion force, they are simply part of the strength of the Royal Navy under consideration.[/quote]

See above response.

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 08 Aug 2007 23:24

Well, when you have a debate with NUTS as I & leandros have been having elsewhere (Not Here), the topic of debate centers around Force H & M being called upon to defend England, once they receive either The Cromwell Order or The Sir Francis Drake Order.


Though I certainly don't count myself as Nuts, I'll hazard a guess I'm in the mix somewhere. In relation to the above, I have mentioned in the past that one cannot rule out substantial RN
re-inforcements being forthcoming from the Med etc. Part of that hypothesis is that Churchill/Cunningham had an understanding/orders that in the invent of a Japanese invasion of Australia, the Med Fleet would leave on mass to help defend it. Now I would think it reasonable to postulate that if things were going not to plan/heavier than expected losses in countering the invasion of the UK, that a similar undertaking by the Med Fleet was to be expected.
Now I know such 'orders' didn't exist but that was due to the RN estimation that they had enough assets in place to deal with the invasion fleet. Also the substained naval support effort required by the KM, would mean that the time/distance for the assets of the RN to arrive aren't that time critical

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Andy H

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Andy H
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Re: Now Wait A Minute Rich

Post by Andy H » 08 Aug 2007 23:29

Walter_Warlimont wrote:IF.....The Invasion landings take place on the Morning of September 25th, 1940, then there is no way that Force M @ Dakar can be recalled as they are already committed to that mission.

What's more, The Resolution being Badly & Severely Damaged @ Dakar will be Towed by The Barham to Freetown (If Memory Serves).

And even if they were called upon to make haste for English Waters, they would have to stop off @ Gibraltar first for replenishment of Fuel, Ammo, Etc,......
I would agree that some of the units would have to stop at Gib, though I imagine some may be able to head directly back the southern and southwestern ports.
Also a stop at Gib would add how long to the journey home, especially since the supplies would be ready and waiting on the whole?

Regards

Andy H

RichTO90
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Re: Now Wait A Minute Rich

Post by RichTO90 » 09 Aug 2007 01:43

Walter_Warlimont wrote:How in the bloody blue blazes of hell did you manage to come up with that information? I'm not chastising you for being forthcoming with it, I'm just curious as to how you came about that information.
Uh, there are any number of lunar phase calculators available on the net? I think most are used by astrologers and Druids, but they still suffice. :D :P
Hell, the morning of the 24th works better for me anyway.
Except the KM was just coming off an extended period (on 21 September) when the weather had forced them to curtail operations by most of the smaller vessels such as S-Boote. So they may have had a time "coming up to speed"? Plus built into all of this planning were requirements for the time to marshal the barges and other vessels, assemble and load the troops, and get things under way, and to date the German high command hadn't exactly been enthusiastic about pinning down dates?

It's certainly possible they could have decided to launch anyway during the period of bad weather, but I have my doubts that they would have. Remember, one major issue for the Germans in the Atlantic was simply forecasting weather. For example, although the 21st was fine, the 22nd was crappy and then the 23rd was fine again; there was just a two day window from 9-24 September in which conditions - weather and moon - met the required criteria, 21 and 23 September.

And of course the later into fall the worse that situation became.

BTW, the next possible lunar period began the night of 8 October with the First Quarter Moon. Leandros pretty much agreed the end limit for possibility was circa 15 October and the moon remains suitable throughout (it is just before the full moon on the 15th) but the weather was dicey to say the least.
Thanks Rich.
You're welcome.
Rich wrote:Well, when you have a debate with NUTS as I & leandros have been having elsewhere (Not Here), the topic of debate centers around Force H & M being called upon to defend England, once they receive either The Cromwell Order or The Sir Francis Drake Order.
Yes, there are extremists associated with almost every viewpoint it seems? I suppose they are of the "wakes of the RN ships are sufficient to sink the German rowboats" ilk? :D
Walter_Warlimont wrote:And even if they were called upon to make haste for English Waters, they would have to stop off @ Gibraltar first for replenishment of Fuel, Ammo, Etc,......
But I question if they would have been so required?

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Question for RichTO90 re deployment of RN

Post by taylorjohn » 11 Aug 2007 18:56

RichTO90 wrote:
Walter_Warlimont wrote:Now, I realize that I might not have every ship accounted for, but what I do have, it is very interesting to note where exactly these vessels are & under what circumstances they are located where they are.
Very good, but it is important to realize that the listing as given is somewhat schematic with regards to the actual locations of these vessels. So for example, many of the destroyers and sloops (escort destroyers) listed as part of the Home Fleet were not actual at Scapa Flow, they were deployed at various forward locations by squadron, but since the Admiral 'D' (the Admiral in Command of the Destroyer force) was based at Scapa the convention was that was their 'base' and they were simply attached at other ports. A similar and slightly detailed list has been put up here before I think? But I'm not sure if the complete one has or not? So here:

Dispositions of Warships in Home Waters, 1600hrs/16 September 1940

Scapa Flow (26 hrs from Dungeness at 20kts)
1 BC: Repulse (RA(D)), 1 BM: Erebus
......................................................
.....................................................
.......................................................
Note this list does not include the large numbers of MMS trawlers and ASW trawlers stationed at these ports, nor those in the Pacific, Indian Ocean, or Mediteranean.
(Apparently Andreas Moved My New Topic To Here)
Well, after all, you did post about teh Royal Navy and this thread is about "Seelöwe: British Defensive Measures - Naval and Air Ops"? :D

Rich,

Are you able to provide a source regarding the above deployment of the RN you listed?

Regards

John

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Re: Question for RichTO90 re deployment of RN

Post by RichTO90 » 13 Aug 2007 01:34

taylorjohn wrote:Are you able to provide a source regarding the above deployment of the RN you listed?

Regards

John
They are drawn from the 'Red List" for 15 September IIRC - that is pretty generally available on the web - with some corrections and amendments drawn from RN Day-by-Day.

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Re: Question for RichTO90 re deployment of RN

Post by taylorjohn » 13 Aug 2007 21:52

RichTO90 wrote:
taylorjohn wrote:Are you able to provide a source regarding the above deployment of the RN you listed?

Regards

John
They are drawn from the 'Red List" for 15 September IIRC - that is pretty generally available on the web - with some corrections and amendments drawn from RN Day-by-Day.
Do you have a website address I can go to? - I have tried searching under "Red List Royal Navy" on Google but could not find anything.

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Re: Question for RichTO90 re deployment of RN

Post by RichTO90 » 14 Aug 2007 02:34

taylorjohn wrote:Do you have a website address I can go to? - I have tried searching under "Red List Royal Navy" on Google but could not find anything.
No, I pulled it from another Seelöwe discussion group and didn't bookmark it. And I found that by a lot of Google searching, but similar versions exist at different sites. Try "Royal Navy" Sealion strength "15 September"? I honestly forget what I put in?

I can send you some of the other versions if you like, PM me.

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 14 Aug 2007 14:13

I posted something similar at:-
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/s ... 9&page=457

which came from:-
Source: "Pink List" for 16th September 1940, Operations Division, Admiralty Naval Staff (Public Record Office ADM187/9)

Regards

Andy H

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