Goodwood

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Roberto
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#16

Post by Roberto » 03 Apr 2002, 16:35

Looking back, it was almost impossible to resist, but yet the Britsh offensive stalled, at the cost of about 120 tanks each day.
I know nothing about military affairs, as my friend likes to point out, but 120 tanks per day seems a bit high to me.

How long did the Brits sustain such losses?

How many tanks did the British army have left when the battle was over?

Last but not least, what is the source of this figure?

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Qvist
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#17

Post by Qvist » 03 Apr 2002, 16:49

" Let's not put words in my mouth here, I did not say that they used a corps per say, armoured divisions were always the thrusting ram with which the British operated, that is what I stated. "

Yes, what was special with Goodwood, as pointed out, was that a whole corps of armoured divisions was given the task of breaking through and then exploiting the breach.

"Inadequate support is one thing, let me remind you that the organic German personnel in Panzerdivisionen always did well, wouldn't this failure of the British infantry be caused be not that very decent training? "

Certainly. More specifically, the British armored division was a less well balanced formation than a Pz division. Also, the British never really got the hang of infantry/armor co-operation, which was a problem rooted more at the doctrinal level than in the amount of training.

"In the account by Major close I have given you, we have the example of 4 lonely Fliegabwehrkanonen succeeding in not only canning over 40 British tanks, they recieved no fire whatsoever. It would only take a platoon, maybe even less, to have taken the battery out, where was that platoon? "

Exactly. What are we arguing about then? That was one of my main original points - the limited infantry of the armored divisions were outpaced by the tanks, stuck up back dealing with nests of resistance the tanks had bypassed. The defenders had proven more resilient in the face of aerial bombardment than anticipated, there wasn't that much infantry, they weren't able to get the job done and so left the tanks exposed to the 88s. Which produced the kind of results the British should have been able to foresee on the basis of recent experience. So, this situation reflected problems with the operational plan that the British had not adequately addressed, certain general flaws in British tactics and organisation and more effective German resistance than was anticipated.

"Pushing three armoured divisions through a small gap between Caen and the eastern heights, thereby having to dash over Bourgébus, seems a bit of a stretch if you ask me. "

Well, I agree entirely, and that pretty much sums up my first post, which you seemed to regard as some sort of whitewashing attempt. So, there you are then. BTW, I am right about preknowledge of the offensive. I'll get back with a reference.

cheers


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#18

Post by StandartenfuehrerSS » 03 Apr 2002, 18:31

'BTW, I am right about preknowledge of the offensive. I'll get back with a reference.'

Well, that's I'd be most interesting in seeing. Would the sources also provide information as to how Goodwood leaked out? And how do you account for Dietrich's not knowing on the fourteenth, practically on the eve of the assault?

Just a remark, when you compared war with a football game, that was hitting the nail on the head, let me remind you that all these plans and preparations were wholefully unknown to the average soldier on the field, his concern lied with the enemy soldier trying to put a bullet in his body 500m away.

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Qvist
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#19

Post by Qvist » 05 Apr 2002, 09:42

checked my books yesterday about German preparedness for Goodwood: Max Hastings, Carlo d'Este and Alexander McKee all mention it. Hastings calls it one of the few scoops of German tactical intelligence during the campaign. There is an ULTRA intercept by a message from Sperrle of Luftflotte 3, warning of a major British attack SE of Caen on 17-18th. They all mention the well known claim made by Dietrich in interrogations after the war: That he had detected the assembling tanks by putting his ear to the ground. The assembly of such large armoured forces were difficult to conceal, and the British weren't succesful in their attempts at doing so.

Nobody's very precise about exactly what the Germans knew or how they came to know it, the main thing in any case is that they clearly expected a British attack in the days immediatly prior to it, and that Eberbach ordered a strengthening of the defenses in the Bourgebus area as a result. The British on their side failed to detect the shifting of German units in response to this threat.

cheers

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#20

Post by StandartenfuehrerSS » 05 Apr 2002, 12:02

‘[...] Max Hastings, Carlo d'Este and Alexander McKee all mention it. ‘

I see. What nationality are you?

‘[...] Sperrle of Luftflotte 3, warning of a major British attack SE of Caen on 17-18th.’

Sperrle, issuer of the famous Sperrle orders, one of the best decisions ever made during the entire war in the occupied regions.

‘Nobody's very precise about exactly what the Germans knew or how they came to know it, the [...] The British on their side failed to detect the shifting of German units in response to this threat.’

Well, this does, in my eyes, not prove that the Germans knew per say of the size and magnitude of the attack. They anticipated the attack, yes, as we learn from von Luck, and even with Sperrle’s warning, I fail to see what more could be done. There were no minefields whatsoever, except for some isolated mines put there by the U.S. 6th AB division, and I did not see major troop movements or strengthening of the lines of any kind. One thing is sure, blaming the short-term failure of the offensive to German preparedness is futile. If they indeed had such a thing called ‘prior knowledge’, it was not the American kind of prior knowledge, where entire orders were deciphered into detail and the exact date, location an composition of the troops was known. Von Luck described the country as ‘excellent tank country’, but adds that with the many villages and bushes, it is even more excellent tank-killing country. Let’s also not fool ourselves on the presence of FlaK, there was the battery with four models in Cagny and 24 models from a Flakkampfgruppe, coming from the excellent III. Flakkorps. 16. Luftwaffe-felddivision was almost obliterated by the attack, and 21. Panzerdivision badly burned. So no, I do not believe German preparation had suddenly sprung up, time was too limited for that, and the means for that were not available, considering the immediate divisions in the vincity were bödenstandig. A warning was all that could be done I’m afraid. Movement by day was made impossible, as we know well.

Still, I did not know of Sperrle’s warning, which is was new to me.

Since you did not appear to be aware of the exact British casualties, I provide you with the numbers:

i.) British personnel losses were 4.011 out of a total 76.213. This is quite low, making it a total percentage of 5.26%, or 1.75% per day. This is for the period 18-20 July, the general length of the offensive, although in my eyes there was no such thing anymore as Goodwood after July the nineteenth. The expected casualty rate in this kind of corps-level assault was 1.2%, making Goodwood in terms of personnel losses not particularly high, just normal. As a comparison, the British casualty rate for this kind of attacks in WWI was 4-8.5%, considerably higher. (1)

ii.) British tank losses were very high, 493 lost units. I remember watching ‘propaganda’ movies showing the victory over the ‘Anglo-Americans’ at the time, which stated ‘über fünfhundert’ armour was destroyed. Looking back, it was not propaganda at all, just the truth in fact. Although, this number must be looked at from two sides. The number also contains lightly and heavily damaged units, not all were per say lost. The number that was still in rotation by 19 July was 191, out of a total tank force of over 1.000, (running or in repair) suggests that 302 (by that date) were wrecked, which is only logical, a hit from either a Pak 43 75mm or FlaK was often enough to render a unit unusable, but the total number of wrecked is unclear, as no data exists on that, and, to make matters worse, 20 July marks a ‘blind’ report by the quartermaster, stating he does not know how many tanks were in running order. (2) Now, the second way we need to look at this number is as a comparison. The battle for Prokharovka, far greater in scale, on 12 July 1943, one day alone, cost the Russians 313 tanks, while only succeeding in destroying 49 German Panzer, of which 19 came from the LSSAH. Considering the Waffen-SS held the field, all lost tanks could be repaired again. On the first day of the offensive, 18 July, the British lost 136 tanks. As I said before, it was a matter of the stronger force canning the larger but highly clumsy and sometimes inept Allied force.

I will finish with a nice quote by Kurt Meyer, from Grenadiere, p. 154:

"Where is the spirit of the Light Brigade at Balaclava in the Crimean War? The enemy tanks drag themselves across the ground like turtles, their poser is not concentrated."

----------------
(1) MORU Report n° 23, Battle Study Operation "GOODWOOD"
(2) Ibid.

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Qvist
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#21

Post by Qvist » 05 Apr 2002, 12:45

"I see. What nationality are you? "

I am Norwegian. Why? what's your point?

" Well, this does, in my eyes, not prove that the Germans knew per say of the size and magnitude of the attack. They anticipated the attack, yes, as we learn from von Luck, and even with Sperrle’s warning, I fail to see what more could be done etc "

Well, I do not and did not claim that the Germans knew the operational plan in detail. They knew that a major offensive was afoot, where, and when. I do not and did not claim that this was THE cause for the defeat of the offensive, just that this was one of the factors that contributed to it, which is obvious enough.

" So no, I do not believe German preparation had suddenly sprung up, time was too limited for that, and the means for that were not available, considering the immediate divisions in the vincity were bödenstandig. A warning was all that could be done I’m afraid. Movement by day was made impossible, as we know well. "

It had naturally not suddenly sprung up, but existing positions were strengthened - the ability to react swiftly to emerging threats was a key feature of the fighting effectiveness of the German army in Normandy, and it would have been surprising if they had not managed to display it when they for once knew something of an impending attack. They repeatedly proved able of shifting units quickly when the situation required it, and here they had much more time than on other occasions. And movement by day, as we know, having both read Zetterling, was clearly NOT impossible, just difficult. If the German command had not made realignments in the face of a major offensive it knew would come, it would have done a rather poor job, what? Regarding what was available in the area, you yourself have pointed out that both 1st and 12th SS Pz divs were in reserve. Elements of these formed a local reserve (and saw quite some action) during the battle. British intel had them incorrectly located S of Caen. Hastings also refers to an order from Eberbach of Panzer Group West to strengthen the defenses in the Bourgebus area.

"Since you did not appear to be aware of the exact British casualties, I provide you with the numbers:"

Just because I do not mention something does not mean I am not aware of it :). Still, thanks for providing such detailed info for the benefit of everyone. As I suspected, I don't really think we disagree on many basic points here, we just came at it from different angles and stressed different aspects. BTW, I strongly recommend D'Este's "Decision in Normandy" - it is a superb, meticulous and balanced study of the allied higher command and its plans and decisions in this campaign.

cheers

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Monty and Eisenhower

#22

Post by admfisher » 06 Apr 2002, 07:10

Now with all the talk of Goodwood, how about this one. Did Monty fully explain his plans to Eisenhower or not. There is a fair amout of he said she said in this case.
Eisenhower if he was such a good manager then he should of fully understood what Monty was upto. Then maybe these sucide style attacks could of been handled better.

The point that makes Monty and Eisenhower funny is they both say the other knows whats happening. :o

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#23

Post by ldb730 » 19 Sep 2007, 16:04

Very interesting discussion. Goodwood was a tragic comedy of errors from the beginning. The carpet-bombing was pure overkill...the bomb damage, dust and smoke delayed the British advance until well after the shock effect had worn off. Also the typical inability of the British to carry out combined arms operations and their failure to deal with islands of resistance on the flanks and in the rear of their main armored advance.
I'm still amazed that the alliance between Britain and the USA did not fall apart given the tensions in the summer of 1944. Eisenhower had been pressuring Montgomery to break out for over a month since British 2nd Army had been stalled around Caen. In "Monty's" defense, the OKW had deployed the majority of their panzer divisions opposite the British since they were closer to open country than US 1st Army (If I'm not mistaken, the only armored formations facing 1st Army at this time were Panzer Lehr, 2nd SS Panzer and 17th SS Panzergrenadier Divisions). However, Monty's claim that Goodwood was just an attempt to tie down the panzer divisions in his sector so that Operation Cobra would succeed is nothing but sour grapes. You don't commit three armored divisions to a "spoiling attack".
I've read several books (Max Hastings' "Overlord" in particular) that point out Ike would have dismissed Monty over the Goodwood fiasco if not for the sake of the Alliance. The other two times that Monty's job was in danger were after he declared Operation Market-Garden "95% successful" (the lacking 5% being the failure to achieve his objective of crossing the Rhine and the loss of most of 1st British Airborne Division) and in the Ardennes Offensive when, as one US officer put it, Monty strode in like "Christ coming to cleanse the temple".
The only question is who would have replaced Montgomery as C-in-C of 21st Army Group if Eisenhower had sent him home? Sir Brian Horrocks (commander XXX Corps in Normandy) seems to have been a capable commander but would he have been out of his element commanding an army or army group. I know that neither Sir Miles Depsey (commander British 2nd Army) nor Sir Harold Alexander (C-in-C in Italy) inspired much confidence. Dwight D. Eisenhower may not have been much of a strategist but he was capable at managing the two biggest egos in the Western Europe Campaign-Bernard L. Montgomery and George S. Patton. Anybody have any suggestions as to who could have replaced Montgomery if Ike had been able to fire him?

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#24

Post by Michael Emrys » 19 Sep 2007, 16:17

ldb730 wrote:I know that neither Sir Miles Depsey (commander British 2nd Army) nor Sir Harold Alexander (C-in-C in Italy) inspired much confidence.
What is your specific criticism of Dempsey? I am not championing him, I'm just curious as to what his qualifications or lack of them add up to.

Michael

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#25

Post by ldb730 » 19 Sep 2007, 17:44

What is your specific criticism of Dempsey? I am not championing him, I'm just curious as to what his qualifications or lack of them add up to.

Michael[/quote]
I know that Dempsey was under pressure from Montgomery to get out of the Caen area. Not much seems to be written about Dempsey's abilities which led me to assume he was a rather mediocre commander. Although Gen. Courtney Hodges (US 1st Army) was never in the limelight, he was by no means mediocre.
I know that by the summer of 1944, the British were short of manpower and were combing non-essential personnel from other branches to fill the ranks of 2nd Army. Gen. Dempsey probably had to conserve manpower as much as possible. I know this is one of the factors that affected how the British conducted operations-a lot more cautious, a lot more reliant on firepower and airpower and a lot less "Hell-bent for leather".
Point well-taken Michael.

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#26

Post by Michael Kenny » 19 Sep 2007, 19:52

The best reply to all the criticism of the partial success of Goodwood would be Christopher Dunphie's comment:

" Throughout early July Bradley who, following the capture of Cherbourg
could now turn his attentions south, had sought to capture the St L6 to Periers
road as the start-line for his attack. It had been a grim, slow and unspectacular
battle in the depths of the dense bocage country. St LO was finally taken on 18
July, as GOODWOOD began, and COBRA was therefore planned for 21 July
But the rain which converted the GOODWOOD area to a mud-bath had
similarly affected Bradley's attack. Had COBRA been launched on 21 July no-
one could have dismissed the argument that GOODWOOD and COBRA were
two phases of the same Twenty-first Army Group battle. Eventually on 24
July the skies cleared and the US Air Force was able to launch its preliminary
bombing raid. Unfortunately, and expressly against Bradley's instructions,
the aircraft flew north to south, rather than west to east. Some bombers
bombed short and the leading elements of VII US Corps were hit. Many
casualties ensued, among them Lieutenant General Leslie McNair, who had
gone forward to watch the attack begin. Bradley was furious and the attack
was delayed for twenty-four hours.
With all the criticism which surrounded GOODWOOD and the eventual
speed of the American breakout, it is easy to forget that in the early stages
Bradley's COBRA proved to be even slower than Dempsey's GOODWOOD.
On 25 July COBRA was launched, and by the end of the day had achieved just
two miles. Late on 28 July, after four days of fighting. General Lawton Collins'
VII Corps captured Coutances, some eight miles south of the start line, about
the same distance as the two-day GOODWOOD advance"
.

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#27

Post by janner » 19 Sep 2007, 22:11

I understand that BLUECOAT outpaced COBRA in the early stages with Gds Armd and 52 Highland Divs achieving breakthroughs.

This showed how quickly the British responded to deficiencies identified at GOODWOOD and introduced Armour/Infantry Pairing or Battle Grouping.

I'm still waiting a comprehensive study on this one unless someone has come across anything more than the Battleground Europe Guides on it. I was tempted to do it myself but Talvisota beckoned!
:D

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#28

Post by Andreas » 19 Sep 2007, 22:25

There have been some recent books on the matter - Dunphie's, which Michael quotes above, is supposed to be good, but I have not read it.

All the best

Andreas

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#29

Post by janner » 20 Sep 2007, 07:43

Andreas, Many thanks I'll give it a look. I do think that the initiative shown by Pip Roberts (GOC 11 Armd) in reconfiguring his division based on the lessons of EPSOM and GOODWOOD, and the support given to that process by Dempsey very interesting. certainly doesn't fit with the image of the British and Commonwealth Army depicted by Ambrose et al.

BLUECOAT was, arguably, also vital in diverting 21 Pz Div and II SS Pz Korps: drawing the teeth from Operation Lüttich - the German Counter Stroke against COBRA.

Oh, and sorry that should have been 15 Scottish Division in my previous post - apologies.

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#30

Post by JonS » 20 Sep 2007, 08:13

Janner, I agree with your points about Roberts re-orging his Div based on Lessons Learned, but IIRC there wasn't enough time to do so before BLUECOAT. Roberts wanted to, and had the 2+2 bde structure figured out, but there simply wasn't time. Again IIRC, the square bdes came into force for the pursuit phase.

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