Questions about Stalingrad

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Yuri
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Re: Questions about Stalingrad

Postby Yuri » 15 Feb 2017 12:40

Stiltzkin wrote:I am familiar with the 10 days reports. You should learn how to read the casualty reporting system (Verlustwesen), before correcting other posters. There are KIA, WIA , MIA, DOW/HW, other causes (sick, later returns, frostbitten etc.). They cannot have sustained 150,000 KIA in the city. The ration strength of 6th army was 298,573 (26,000 on leave, 50,000 Hiwis), plus 152,000 allies (see M.Kehrig, Stalingrad, Anlage 14 , 1974, p. 671). 4th Panzer Army had 42,215 men plus Romanian Divisions with 104,700 men (80,700 Romanians in Div., 24,000 non specified/in non-divisional HQ units), for a total of 146,915 men. Actual strength is always lower than ration strength. Ist Stärke: 242,583
These 3 armies faced the Soviet offensive with 597,488 men opposed by 1,106,000 men.


If you take 1,100,006 for the Red Army, Axis forces it is necessary to consider all the forces of the Italian 8th army. The Soviet South-Western front, all the forces which are included in the 1,100,006, occupied the area along Don river, which the enemy held the 3rd Romanian and 8th Italian. In the reserve of the 8th Italian army was 294-nd and 62-nd German infantry divisions. Before 19 November the battle group of the 62nd infantry division was transferred to the area of Kletskaya, and the result -in ring.
simons1.jpg

There, in the ring, was all 294-nd pioneer battalion 294 infantry division. In addition to the ring came a group of Italians (about 1000 people). This group went by truck to Stalingrad for firewood (in the don steppes there are no trees, they wanted to take apart the wooden house on the outskirts of Stalingrad). Just November 19, the group crossed the river via the bridge of Don near Kalach and hit the ring. These examples (such examples can give a lot) show the difficulty in determining the actual size of the documents only the 6th army. Not enough documents of army group B, as the ring came as non-Heer units and even non-Wehrmacht units (e.g. battalions "agricultural" army Goering or RAD).
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Stiltzkin
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Re: Questions about Stalingrad

Postby Stiltzkin » 15 Feb 2017 18:06

The Soviet figure is even without reserves, most Soviet literature uses such a categorization. 3 fronts, facing the German offensive. If anything the number was even higher. Half of those were probably committed to the fighting from Kletskaya over Serafimov to Stalingrad. The Axis units were understrength anyway.

from Kursk Statistical Analysis,

https://books.google.de/books?id=lZb7AQ ... e&q&f=true

"It has also been written that Zitadelle marked a shift in the balance of forces on the eastern front. During the Stalingrad counteroffensive, the Red Army is said to have enjoyed numerical parity, while during Zitadelle the numerical superiority is purported to have been 1.5 to 1 in the Soviet favour, which should have increased further to 2 to 1 in the battles along the Dniepr.23 This is all wrong however. The Red Army enjoyed a far better numerical ratio than equality during the Stalingrad offensive. The myth of equality is fostered by Soviet literature that claims that the 1.106 million men of the Southwest, Don and Stalingrad Fronts were opposed by 1.011 million men from the Axis powers. 24 But the Axis forces on the sector covered by those three Soviet fronts, comprising 1.106 million men, did not amount to one million men. Rather the Red Army was opposed by around half a million men.25 This produces a force ratio quite consistent with the fact that the overall force ratio on the eastern front was 6.03 million Red Army soldiers26 versus 2,932,329 German27 and 648,000 satellite28 troops"

BarKokhba
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Re: Questions about Stalingrad

Postby BarKokhba » 16 Feb 2017 02:54

Thanks Yuri. Are there any valid reports of troop strength of those foreign axis units?

Art
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Re: Questions about Stalingrad

Postby Art » 16 Feb 2017 16:24

Stiltzkin wrote:The ration strength of 6th army was 298,573 (26,000 on leave, 50,000 Hiwis)

BTW about that thing:
viewtopic.php?p=1455889#p1455889
So the original report used by Kehrig reads 31 thousand Hiwis and POWs in divisions and 21 thousand (mostly Germans) in troops attached to divisions.
4th Panzer Army had 42,215 men plus Romanian Divisions with 104,700 men (80,700 Romanians in Div., 24,000 non specified/in non-divisional HQ units)

I guess that rather means 42 215 ration strength in German divisions, 80 700 in Romanian divisions and 24 000 in non-divisional units (mostly Germans):
viewtopic.php?p=493903#p493903
From Axworthy the Romanian 4 Army (basically the Romanian element in the 4 PzAOK) numbered about 75 000 at the start of "Uranus", which more or less agrees with said above.
195,000-209,529 captured in the pocket

There was never such a number of prisoners, I'm quite sure about it. The common figures are 91 000 POWs taken during the final reduction of the pocket (10.1.-2.02.43). Plus at most several thousand POWs taken before 10.1.43. If you consider this the 6-digit figure of fatal casualties doesn't seem improbable.

Stiltzkin
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Re: Questions about Stalingrad

Postby Stiltzkin » 16 Feb 2017 21:01

Overmans established such a number, whether its right or wrong, who knows, but that isn't the problem here.
91 000 POWs taken during the final reduction
Those were remnants in the city, the 300,000 figure is for the complete axis forces (the pocket did not only encompass the city), 178,000 is for the AOK 6, the calculation comes from MIA estimation via Verlustwesen for AOK6 (the majority of troops and also a good amount of german troops).

Lets just assume all of them were in the pocket , if 91,000 prisoners in the last phase are captured, with the majority being Germans, that would leave a maxium of 90,000 KIA, with the fighting from September up to November this figure would not even exceed 100,000. If you are speaking about total axis KIA, sure this figure might surpass 150,000 if you include Kletskaya, Serafimovich and the vicinity.
Fatalities aren't just KIA.
6-digit figure of fatal casualties doesn't seem improbable.

So you are saying there were 150,000 German KIA in the city? AOK 6 did not even sustain 100,000 KIA during 1 year of fighting. The number of Hiwis does not change much. Thats just nitpicking. We are trying to find out German KIA in the city here, not MIA or other figures.
You do not understand the fundamental flaw: The exchange rate in combat is expressed via KIA. Stalingrad is no difference (at least before the envelopment).

Art
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Re: Questions about Stalingrad

Postby Art » 18 Feb 2017 22:58

Stiltzkin wrote:So you are saying there were 150,000 German KIA in the city?

The original documents said "Stalingrad and the area". I don't know what was the size of the area exactly, but given that the same report read that 38 000 km^2 area was cleared of mines it could be quite considerable. And again it clear that given the difference between the number of men missing in the pocket and the number of POWs taken, casualties as killed or frozen to death in the last weeks were huge. I'm not ready to tell the number but certainly huge.

Art
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Re: Questions about Stalingrad

Postby Art » 19 Feb 2017 11:16

Henri Winkelman wrote:4. Does one have any idea about the amount of Russian POW's in and around Stalingrad?


From the war diary of the 6 AOK, 17.10.42:
Beginning from 13.9 (start of offensive in Stalingrad) to 16.10 the Army captured 17 917 prisoners, destroyed or knocked out 233 tanks, captured and destroyed 302 guns.
In heavy defense fighting on the northern front during the same period 5 625 prisoners were captured, 616 tanks - destroyed or knocked out, 87 guns of all types - destroyed or captured.
Beginning from 13.9 fighters shot down in the Stalingrad area more than 670 enemy airplanes, flak or ground troops shot down further 88.
Own losses in Stalingrad during the same period made:
Killed in action - 69 officers, 2438 other ranks
Wounded - 271 officers, 10 107 other ranks
Missing in action - 3 officers, 298 other ranks

From the day of the Don crossing 21.8 the Army in attack and defense captured 57 800 prisoners, destroyed and knocked out 1950 tanks, captured or destroyed 805 guns of all types, drowned 10 gunboats and 14 other vessels on Volga.
The air force during the same period shot down more than 1700 enemy airplanes, flak and ground troops - further 269.
Own losses of the army beginning from 21.8 were:
Killed - 239 officers, 7456 other ranks
Wounded - 821 officers, 30 360 other ranks
Missing in action - 8 officers, 1127 other ranks.

Henri Winkelman
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Re: Questions about Stalingrad

Postby Henri Winkelman » 19 Feb 2017 14:20

Art wrote:
Henri Winkelman wrote:4. Does one have any idea about the amount of Russian POW's in and around Stalingrad?


From the war diary of the 6 AOK, 17.10.42:
Beginning from 13.9 (start of offensive in Stalingrad) to 16.10 the Army captured 17 917 prisoners, destroyed or knocked out 233 tanks, captured and destroyed 302 guns.
In heavy defense fighting on the northern front during the same period 5 625 prisoners were captured, 616 tanks - destroyed or knocked out, 87 guns of all types - destroyed or captured.
Beginning from 13.9 fighters shot down in the Stalingrad area more than 670 enemy airplanes, flak or ground troops shot down further 88.
Own losses in Stalingrad during the same period made:
Killed in action - 69 officers, 2438 other ranks
Wounded - 271 officers, 10 107 other ranks
Missing in action - 3 officers, 298 other ranks

From the day of the Don crossing 21.8 the Army in attack and defense captured 57 800 prisoners, destroyed and knocked out 1950 tanks, captured or destroyed 805 guns of all types, drowned 10 gunboats and 14 other vessels on Volga.
The air force during the same period shot down more than 1700 enemy airplanes, flak and ground troops - further 269.
Own losses of the army beginning from 21.8 were:
Killed - 239 officers, 7456 other ranks
Wounded - 821 officers, 30 360 other ranks
Missing in action - 8 officers, 1127 other ranks.


Thanks Art, I was a little bit lost in the discussion but this is useful stuff. The 17.917 prisoners of the first paragraph are probably included in the 57.800 prisoners of the second paragraph, aren't they?

Anyway, it clearly shows the initial success of the German operation.

Art
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Re: Questions about Stalingrad

Postby Art » 19 Feb 2017 15:51

The 17.917 prisoners of the first paragraph are probably included in the 57.800 prisoners of the second paragraph, aren't they?

Obviously they are.

Art
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Re: Questions about Stalingrad

Postby Art » 19 Feb 2017 20:42

Ok, prisoners captured by AOK 6 in July-October 1942 (all the area, not Stalingrad only):

11-21.7 - about 11 000
22.7 - 549
23.7 - 298
24.7 - 139
25.7 - 127
27.7 - 2 512
28.7 - 704
29.7 - 3 043
30.7 - 2 357
31.7 - 3 124
1.8 - 2 256
Total 16 704 POWs taken 23.7-1.8
3.8 - 1 454
4.8 - 390
5.8 - 803
6.8 - 263
7.8 - 263
Total 1-10.8 - 15 652 POWs
12.8 - 3 908
13.8 - 965
14.8 - 606
16.8 - about 10 000
15.8-17.8 - 12 835 cumulative
15.8-18.8 - 15 030
15.8-19.8 - 16 649
15.8-20.8 - 17 087
15.8-21.8 - 22 566
21-27.8 - 14 594 total
28.8 - 539
29.8 - 1 400
30.8 - 1 152
31.8 - 614
1.9 - 823
2 and 3.9 - 918
4.9 - 2 171
5.9 - 1 433
6.9 - 1 052
7.9 - 643
8.9 - 1 132
9.9 - 1 751
10.9 - 1 186
11.9 - 1 347
12.9 - 1 292
13.9 - 464
14.9 - 867
15.9 - 1 023
16.9 - 465
17.9 - 1 566
18.9 - 1 334
19.9 - 1 878
20.9 - 2 159 (beginning from the night 18/19.9)
21.9 - 562
22.9 - 1 169
23.9 - 669
24.9 - 825
25.9 - 701
26.9 - 1 368
27.9 - 881
28.9 - 1 005
29.9 - 691
30.9 - 1 008
1.10 - 484
2.10 - 456
3.10 - 601
4.10 - 509
5.10 - 522
6.10 - 499
7.10 - 1 598
8.10 - 753
9.10 - 84
10.10 - 84
11.10 - 74
12.10 - 94
13.10 - 84
14.10 - 68
15.10 - 439
16.10 - 1 112
17.10 - 496
18.10 - 1 041
19.10 - 614
20.10 - 322

From daily intelligence summaries of the Army's staff, Russian translation posted online:
http://nordrigel.livejournal.com/tag/aok.6
We have a somewhat higher sum for 13.9-16.10 than according to the army's war diary, but an adequate match more or less.
One should also consider prisoners captured by the Pz. AOK 4. For information according to the same source 6 Army captured 203 774 prisoners in May-July 1942 (Kharkov and operation "Blau")


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