2nd and 4th Mechanzied Corps in Uman Aug 1941

[Kelvin]

I see 2nd and 4th Mechanized Corps took part in battle of Uman, But I would like to ask their role in this battle : they were victims as they were encircled and struggled for evacuation or they were acted as saving force to save 6th and 12th Armies from Uman enciclement ? Thank.

[Art]

I don't think that 4 MC was involved.

[Kelvin]

I don't think that 4 MC was involved.

Hi, Art, thank so much for your data.

That mean only 2nd Mechanized Corps were encircled with 6th and 12th Armies while 4th Mechanzied corps acted as force to rescue the trapped forces.

[Art]

I mean 4 MC wasn't involved at all. It's known that 2 MC suffered heavy losses, in particular both commanders of 16 Tank and 15 Motorized Divisions were killed in early August. As a result 16 Tank Division was disbanded, 15 Motorized - reorganized as 15 Rifle Division, 11 Tank Division for some time existed as an independent unit before converted to a tank brigade.

[Kelvin]

Hi, Art, in accordance with Robert Forczyk Tank warfare on the Eastern Front 1941-42, mentions Vlasov 's 4th Mech Corps took part in Uman combat and its subordinate unit : 44th Tank division lost its commander. Mistake in this book ? Thank

[Art]

44 Tank Division belonged to the 18 MechCorps.

[Kelvin]

44 Tank Division belonged to the 18 MechCorps.

Hi, Art, yes my mistake. I recheck it would be 8th Tank division from 4th Mechanized Corps. Its commander Colonel Fotchenkov was killed. Is it 8th Tank division transfered to other corps for battle of Uman ? Thank

[Art]

From what I see Fotchenkov commanded an ad-hoc group detached from the 8 Tank Division. He was killed at Uman indeed. The rest of 8 TD was elsewhere.

[Kelvin]

From what I see Fotchenkov commanded an ad-hoc group detached from the 8 Tank Division. He was killed at Uman indeed. The rest of 8 TD was elsewhere.

Hello, Art, thank for your help.

[Kelvin]

Hi, Art, I see the book Nigel Askey about Barbarossa, mentions during Uman battle, most of Soviet divisions only had 4,000 men, is it true for that ? Thank

[Kelvin]

Hello, Art, I would like to ask if 169.Rifle division took part in the battle of Uman. She came from 18th Army but I see some sources that this division broke out of Uman pocket in early August. But its same corps divison 130 RD was not there. So I would like to it really in Uman or in Nikolayer ? Thank

[Jeff Leach]

The positions of the Soviet forces (down to the division level) both Before and after Uman are clearly shown on the South Front maps from Pamyat-Naroda. I looked at them just last week and they are quite good.

The 18th Army was just South of the Uman Encirclement. The army was badly mauled trying to escape being encirclment itself. It retreated down the Bug River Before taking up blocking positions North and east of Nikoyaev so that the 9th Army could cross over the the east side of the Southern Bug.

[Kelvin]

The positions of the Soviet forces (down to the division level) both Before and after Uman are clearly shown on the South Front maps from Pamyat-Naroda. I looked at them just last week and they are quite good.

The 18th Army was just South of the Uman Encirclement. The army was badly mauled trying to escape being encirclment itself. It retreated down the Bug River Before taking up blocking positions North and east of Nikoyaev so that the 9th Army could cross over the the east side of the Southern Bug.

Hi, Jeff, thank so much, that mean 18th Army actually out of pocket, right ? did your map shows 169th Rifle division in or out of pocket, may you tell me on that ? Thank

[Jeff Leach]

These two maps should help you understand the situation and placement of units.

The situation 29-31 July 1941.

The situation 01 August 1941.

[Kelvin]

Hello, Jeff, thank a lot, I see 169Rd was out of pocket.