Smolensk pocket 1941 Soviet casualties

[Kelvin]

Long time ago, German claimed they took 180,000 at Smolensk pocket alone in where the pocket included Soviet 16th, 19th and 20th Armies in August 1941. and recently, many souces says that Soviet evacuated the better part of those armies, Did anyone have Soviet casualties at Smolensk from Soviet side ? What were casualties from Soviet side ?

[Art]

Well, HG Mitte reported 310 000 prisoners from early July to 6 August 1941. However, of them only 47 000 in the Smolensk pocket proper:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/85666/zooms/4

[Kelvin]

Well, HG Mitte reported 310 000 prisoners from early July to 6 August 1941. However, of them only 47 000 in the Smolensk pocket proper:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/85666/zooms/4

Hi, Art, thank so much for your document, thank

[Michate]

Hello Art,

very interesting data.
It may be helpful if you could perhaps provide a link to the document as a whole rather than the single page. Somehow I am too stupid to do get there myself.

Thanks anyway!

[Orinik]

This document starts at http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/85664/zooms/8 , don't know where ends. Choose 64, next 66, next 68, etc [pages/85664/zooms/8 <- here, the red one]
zooms/8 gives you the biggest file, zooms/4 is good for a preview.

[Art]

Here is a link to the entire folder:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/n ... rid/zoom/1
From the same folder breakdown of prisoners by command at Dnieper-Dvina:
AOK 2 - 110 352
AOK 9 - 72 970
PzGr 2 - 97 040
PzGr 3 (calculated) - 28 748
Total 309 110

[Art]

Worth to add that according to Lopukhovsky the West front reported the loss of 111 880 men including 46 827 killed and missing 20-31 July 1941 and 32 500 total 1-10 August. Not necessarily these reports accurate and complete.

[Michate]

Great! Thank you very much for this!

[Kelvin]

I am curious that German was less successful in Smolensk area in July 1941 when their LOC and troop were not so extended but obtained a remarkable victories in Oct 1941 when Soviet had more time to build up and reinforce their troop, at least 15 Soviet Armies depolyed in Moscow Area in Oct 1941.

And Guderian always failed to seal the pocket successfully like in Smolensk and in Trebchevsk.

[Art]

Worth to add that according to Lopukhovsky the West front reported the loss of 111 880 men including 46 827 killed and missing 20-31 July 1941

Isaev based on the documents of the West Front writes that reported losses 20 to 31 July 1941 were 105 723 men including 9 958 killed and 46 827 missing. This report didn't include 20 Army in the pocket. From the same author the Soviet 16 and 20 Armies after breakout from the pocket numbered about 29 000 men total. Again not necessarily accurate numbers.

[Art]

And also some primary documents. Comparative personnel strength of Soviet 20 Army's divisions on 1 July/6 August 1941:
73 Rifle Divisions - 16 328/2 593
144 Rifle Division - 13 445/1 555
153 Rifle Division - 12 655/545
229 Rifle Division - 13 099/2 026
233 Rifle Division - 12 652/1 640
18 Rifle Division - 11 083/no data
17 Tank Division - 5 925/2 780
13 Tank Division - 7 269/924
57 Tank Division - 6 409/1 651
1 Motorized Division - 9 978/2 375
From
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=111761448

[Kelvin]

Worth to add that according to Lopukhovsky the West front reported the loss of 111 880 men including 46 827 killed and missing 20-31 July 1941

Isaev based on the documents of the West Front writes that reported losses 20 to 31 July 1941 were 105 723 men including 9 958 killed and 46 827 missing. This report didn't include 20 Army in the pocket. From the same author the Soviet 16 and 20 Armies after breakout from the pocket numbered about 29 000 men total. Again not necessarily accurate numbers.

Hi, Art, your data are very useful. I think the Western Front casuslties also included her loss in Mogilev for loss of 61st Rifle Corps and 20 Mechanzied Corps, not limited to Smolensk pocket only. Perhaps also some in Nevel pocket for 22nd Army.

And do you have primary doucment for individual divisions for 16th and 19th Armies for same period just like those of 20th Army, if you have some, may you post it for reference for AHF members ? Thank

[per70]

I note that while the german documents list the prisoner counts from the battle of Minsk-Bialystok and the battle of Dnepr,Dvina and Smolensk, they do not specify an end date to the first and a start date to the latter.

I've seen dates ranging from 3.July - 10.July with regards to this,

Does anyone know which date the Germans used to seperate the two battles?

[Kelvin]

And also some primary documents. Comparative personnel strength of Soviet 20 Army's divisions on 1 July/6 August 1941:
73 Rifle Divisions - 16 328/2 593
144 Rifle Division - 13 445/1 555
153 Rifle Division - 12 655/545
229 Rifle Division - 13 099/2 026
233 Rifle Division - 12 652/1 640
18 Rifle Division - 11 083/no data
17 Tank Division - 5 925/2 780
13 Tank Division - 7 269/924
57 Tank Division - 6 409/1 651
1 Motorized Division - 9 978/2 375
From
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=111761448

Hi, Art, Soviet 20th Army manpower were from 108843 men on July 1 down to 16089 men, excluding 18 RD, but David Glantz mentions Soviet Western Front evacuated the better part of those 16, 19 and 20th Armies. and German captured only 46900 Soviet at Smolensk alone. So did those three armies had some other battles to suffer rather than Smolensk during this period ? Thank

[Art]

It's specially mentioned in the document that mustering of personnel was still in the process on 6.8.41. I expect that many men became stragglers or were broken into small groups that were collected and incorporated into e.g. Rokossovsky's group. Can't say anything more specific.