Was the Soviet Union preparing to attack Germany?

[doogal]

Andrew184 wrote - In his pre-trial testimony (Microfilm DJ-48), Göring commented that:

"A report of Stalin's speech to his generels that Russia considers the treaty with Germany only as a curtain for better manipulations was the most important reason for starting that preventive war."


Does anyone know which specific speech Göring is referring to here?

It would be interesting to know if Goring was being disingenuous, I only say this as German intelligence gathering from inside the Soviet Union pre 22nd June 1941 is considered poor.
So If you consider that the Nazi hierarchy knew what Stalin said to his Generals but lacked knowledge of the Soviets heaviest armoured vehicles and the true size of her manpower reserves. ?? It rings false to my ears (happy to be proved wrong)

As for the original post question:- No the Soviet Union was not planning to attack Germany ( in 1941) - There are many indicators of this fact -
The first strategic echelon was to far in front of the second for an offensive guided by soviet doctrine. The forward units of the first echelon had not and were not preparing jump off positions for an assault - The units were not exercising (as they would have been for such an operation) The list can go on. An army which asks what it should do when it is attacked is not one that is prepared to stage a strategic offensive of the complexity that would be required - they would learn very quickly how to do this after 22nd june 1941 -

Could Stalin have harboured intent to eventually attack Germany - Yes -

[Paul Lakowski]

German operational intelligence was considered to be excellent. Going on the 4th art of war symposium .....German GHQ knew the position of all major soviet combat units to within 1 day of its actual positions allowing them to out maneuver and cancel out all major threats in most of the front. Meanwhile the RED ARMY was days behind.

By comparison the fighting over the same ground in 1944 showed the complete opposite, with the REDARMY aware of all Nazi positions while the German GHQ was at least 3 days behind the exact position of the various REDARMY units.


https://www.amazon.com/Initial-Period-E ... 0714642983.

[Art]

As for the original post question:- No the Soviet Union was not planning to attack Germany ( in 1941)

That is an inaccurately formulated answer to an inaccurately formulated question. The Soviet Union developed and regularly updated military plans which were not tied to any specific date but could be put in action at any time.
A similar question would be "Was Soviet Union/United States planning a nuclear war in 1975". This question is formulated in such way that no simple and correct answer is possible.

[doogal]

Ok so I will re-word it .. The Soviet union had no intent to put any of its pre-prepared offensive plans into action in 1941.

[Omeganian]

Ok so I will re-word it .. The Soviet union had no intent to put any of its pre-prepared offensive plans into action in 1941.

Then why were they deploying their forces in accordance with said plans?

[ljadw]

The soviet forces were not deployed offensively ;most were deployed in the Russian hinterland, far away from the border.

[Omeganian]

The soviet forces were not deployed offensively ;most were deployed in the Russian hinterland, far away from the border.

The forces were merely not concentrated yet. Two weeks before the Germans attacked, how many of their tank divisions were at the border?

[andrew184]

It would be interesting to know if Goring was being disingenuous, I only say this as German intelligence gathering from inside the Soviet Union pre 22nd June 1941 is considered poor.
So If you consider that the Nazi hierarchy knew what Stalin said to his Generals but lacked knowledge of the Soviets heaviest armoured vehicles and the true size of her manpower reserves. ?? It rings false to my ears (happy to be proved wrong)

I actually think that it was easier for the Germans to learn of such speeches than it was to garner information on the state of Soviet industry. A case in point was Stalin's speech of May 5. Details of this were passed from an anonymous attendee to the DPA representative, who then passed the details onto the German Embassy. There was also the fact that the embassies, Axis and neutral legations alike, often shared information amongst themselves on theirs meetings and rumours doing the rounds. Goering's remark is quite specific, which makes me not dismiss it out of hand. Especially since I remember Hitler also referring to the pact as a curtain, I believe he used that very same word.

[steverodgers801]

omegian, almost half of all soviet tanks of the BT series were not functioning due to a lack of parts and repair. The T34 was starting to come in production and thus production of the BT series was halted, which included spare parts.

[Omeganian]

omegian, almost half of all soviet tanks of the BT series were not functioning due to a lack of parts and repair. The T34 was starting to come in production and thus production of the BT series was halted, which included spare parts.

All the reports - both of the equipment statistics and the percentages of the tanks that were actually driven out of the bases - are consistently in the 80-90% range, not 50. And considering these very BT tanks, with the same or even greater spare part problems, four+ years later drove 800 km against the Japanese without breaking down...

[Appleknocker27]

The soviet forces were not deployed offensively ;most were deployed in the Russian hinterland, far away from the border.

The forces were merely not concentrated yet. Two weeks before the Germans attacked, how many of their tank divisions were at the border?

"Said Plan" was an answering strike based on a German first strike. That was the defensive plan being prepared, the Germans struck before the Soviets were ready and the Red Army still tried to execute the plan because there were no other plans prepared.

"All the reports - both of the equipment statistics and the percentages of the tanks that were actually driven out of the bases - are consistently in the 80-90% range, not 50."

Quote the source then, in its original context.

" And considering these very BT tanks, with the same or even greater spare part problems, four+ years later drove 800 km against the Japanese without breaking down..."

Apples to oranges.... Those were BT tanks, but not the same tanks from the Western Military districts from 1940-41 that were worn out and required major maintenance reset.

"The forces were merely not concentrated yet. Two weeks before the Germans attacked, how many of their tank divisions were at the border?"

You presume that the Soviet ability in 1941 to stage and concentrate their (still not mobilized) forces was the same as the Germans??? seriously?
Do you know what Plan Otto was and how much the Germans increased their rail capacity to the border in order to effect their offensive concentration plan?

[Omeganian]

The soviet forces were not deployed offensively ;most were deployed in the Russian hinterland, far away from the border.

The forces were merely not concentrated yet. Two weeks before the Germans attacked, how many of their tank divisions were at the border?

"Said Plan" was an answering strike based on a German first strike. That was the defensive plan being prepared, the Germans struck before the Soviets were ready and the Red Army still tried to execute the plan because there were no other plans prepared.

Defensive? Three of the plan's variants (summer 1940 to spring 1941) contain nothing about enemy plans and admit nothing is known about them. Up until May 1941, the Soviet command didn't even bother with the possibility the Germans might disrupt the assembly of the forces on the border. What evidence do you have this plan was defensive? Pure attack through and through.

"All the reports - both of the equipment statistics and the percentages of the tanks that were actually driven out of the bases - are consistently in the 80-90% range, not 50."

Quote the source then, in its original context.

Well, there are the figures of the Statistical Compendium, then there is the 10th Tank Division, which according to the report took 147 BT tanks out of the 181 it had, there is the 1st Tank Division (Finnish border), which was forced to leave behind 20 tanks once it went to war... Where are your sources?

http://www.teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/BiChS ... _2_02.html

http://bdsa.ru/avgust-1941-arkhiv/290-b ... sta-1941-g

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/golushko/01.html

" And considering these very BT tanks, with the same or even greater spare part problems, four+ years later drove 800 km against the Japanese without breaking down..."

Apples to oranges.... Those were BT tanks, but not the same tanks from the Western Military districts from 1940-41 that were worn out and required major maintenance reset.

These were the tanks which fought actual battles against Japan throughout the 30s. And then they spent six years mothballed. And then we have the tanks which served Spain and Finland until the 60s...

"The forces were merely not concentrated yet. Two weeks before the Germans attacked, how many of their tank divisions were at the border?"

You presume that the Soviet ability in 1941 to stage and concentrate their (still not mobilized) forces was the same as the Germans??? seriously?
Do you know what Plan Otto was and how much the Germans increased their rail capacity to the border in order to effect their offensive concentration plan?

I know that the Soviet forces were scheduled to concentrate in early July. You presume that the Soviet ability in 1941 to stage and concentrate their forces was unknown to the Soviet high command??? seriously?

[ljadw]

omegian, almost half of all soviet tanks of the BT series were not functioning due to a lack of parts and repair. The T34 was starting to come in production and thus production of the BT series was halted, which included spare parts.

All the reports - both of the equipment statistics and the percentages of the tanks that were actually driven out of the bases - are consistently in the 80-90% range, not 50. And considering these very BT tanks, with the same or even greater spare part problems, four+ years later drove 800 km against the Japanese without breaking down...

In june 1941 whole tank divisions fell apart before having seen ONE German and before having fired ONE shot .

There was even a tank divison WITHOUT tanks .

[Appleknocker27]

The soviet forces were not deployed offensively ;most were deployed in the Russian hinterland, far away from the border.

The forces were merely not concentrated yet. Two weeks before the Germans attacked, how many of their tank divisions were at the border?

"Said Plan" was an answering strike based on a German first strike. That was the defensive plan being prepared, the Germans struck before the Soviets were ready and the Red Army still tried to execute the plan because there were no other plans prepared.

Defensive? Three of the plan's variants (summer 1940 to spring 1941) contain nothing about enemy plans and admit nothing is known about them. Up until May 1941, the Soviet command didn't even bother with the possibility the Germans might disrupt the assembly of the forces on the border. What evidence do you have this plan was defensive? Pure attack through and through.

DP-41 was the strategic deployment plan and it was stated as defensive, specifically stated as an answering strike to a German invasion. MP-41 was the mobilization plan to support it, the timeline of which went into 1942. The specific operational orders as published in May 1941 were stated as defensive, as presented by Glantz in Stumbling Colossus, Appendix B, quoted verbatim from Soviet archival sources.

"All the reports - both of the equipment statistics and the percentages of the tanks that were actually driven out of the bases - are consistently in the 80-90% range, not 50."

Quote the source then, in its original context.

Well, there are the figures of the Statistical Compendium, then there is the 10th Tank Division, which according to the report took 147 BT tanks out of the 181 it had, there is the 1st Tank Division (Finnish border), which was forced to leave behind 20 tanks once it went to war... Where are your sources?

http://www.teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/BiChS ... _2_02.html

http://bdsa.ru/avgust-1941-arkhiv/290-b ... sta-1941-g

http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/golushko/01.html

Your links are very general, lack detail and aren't verified. You also cherry picked the unit you used as an example. How about the BT tanks of the 12th Mechanized Corps? I can cherry pick also.

" And considering these very BT tanks, with the same or even greater spare part problems, four+ years later drove 800 km against the Japanese without breaking down..."

Apples to oranges.... Those were BT tanks, but not the same tanks from the Western Military districts from 1940-41 that were worn out and required major maintenance reset.

These were the tanks which fought actual battles against Japan throughout the 30s. And then they spent six years mothballed. And then we have the tanks which served Spain and Finland until the 60s...

In the 30's? Do you mean 1939 at Khalkhin Gol only? They sat with minimal use for several years, had trained crews, maintenance teams and had the luxury of all the spare parts being sent East since the war in the west was over and few BT tanks were in use there anyway. Its still apples to oranges.

"The forces were merely not concentrated yet. Two weeks before the Germans attacked, how many of their tank divisions were at the border?"

You presume that the Soviet ability in 1941 to stage and concentrate their (still not mobilized) forces was the same as the Germans??? seriously?
Do you know what Plan Otto was and how much the Germans increased their rail capacity to the border in order to effect their offensive concentration plan?

I know that the Soviet forces were scheduled to concentrate in early July. You presume that the Soviet ability in 1941 to stage and concentrate their forces was unknown to the Soviet high command??? seriously?

Strawman....denied. You haven't proven that the Soviets intended or even planned to concentrate let alone whether or not that they were even capable. Your arguments remain in the realm of wishful thinking and fantasy. Sovietophile stuff to be sure.

[Art]

You also cherry picked the unit you used as an example. How about the BT tanks of the 12th Mechanized Corps? I can cherry pick also.

For example, 28 Tank Division of the 12 MC had 359 T-26 tanks. Of them 344 set out after an alarm order was received on 18 June and 15 non-operational tank were left at the unit quarter in Libava:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=136823135
As said many times 'most tanks were broken' is an old myth from Soviet era books which is not confirmed by any serious sources.