Questions about Stalingrad

[Stiltzkin]

I hope this gives you an idea of what went on after the battle. This is my research and I stand by these numbers. For the full story....you must wait for my book

Based on what research? Another thing is this does not answer the KIA question and the deaths need to stand in a certain relation. The monthly average KIA for a German Army under high strain is 2,000-2,500, with an encirclement it will multiply by 3, during closure of such a pincer it might rise additionally by the same amount, which is fairly close to my estimate. The OP claimed that there were more than 100k German KIA in the city and did not state that he probably meant deaths - the classification is different and I see people mixing those up a lot. I gave an estimate of KIA for units that were potentially still able to put up a fight before getting captured. The total casualties are 100% because the units are unavailable to the Army, they will be left to their fate (and will most likely die in captivity or perish due to attrition).

t was reported that after the battle, some 140,000 dead and frozen Axis troops were picked up from the Stalingrad battlefield and buried

I have seen these numbers above they are based on very inaccurate reports, but they make sense in relation to the figure of 170,000 Overmans states, still these are dead not KIA.

But we should also remember the Axis units surrounded at Stalingrad suffered a great deal more

Suffered a whole deal more than who, the Soviet forces? They didn't. It took the Soviets 1,690,500 (with an unknown amount of replacements) taking 1,129,619 casualties (478,741 irrecoverable losses) to fight 600,000 and encircle 300,000 Axis troops.
The average casualty infliction potential of a German soldier vis a Soviet was 6.25, in the face of an encirclement fighting power dimishes by a factor of 2, which yields 3.125. The SQRT of 3,125 is 1.76. Soviet irrecoverable losses were 478,741 divided by 300,000 Axis deaths gives a value of 1.6. Now you do not have to be a genius to see a correlation.

[Dann Falk]

May I ask the name of the book - Dann?

I don't have a real name yet....Maybe "The history of the 64/7 Guards Army in WW2"

[Dann Falk]

I will try and answer some of your questions Stiltzkin.

Per my post, this is about the Soviet 64 Army, so I was taking paragraphs from my Feb 1943 chapter which was reviewing losses of the 64 Army during Operation Ring, Jan 10 to Feb 2 1943. So in this case, the Axis forces suffered/lost much more than the 64 Army did.

The 140,000 frozen dead number was taken from (Laskin, Ivan A. On the path to the Turning Point. Moscow, Voenizdat, 1977 Part 2 - Chapter 5). Whenever I see a nice round number like 140,000 dead, I immediately think this must be an estimate. I also think its a good estimate. This is why I say "The best we can do is to estimate the losses based on what hard data we have, and reach a reasonable/believable value, and then go on from there."

Many of your questions about combat losses (KIA) will never be answered. There is just no data. After the Axis forces were surrounded at Stalingrad, the normal reporting process about day to day losses wasn't maintained. HQ staffs were busy doing other things.

I would also be wary of estimation via ratios and assuming some fixed loss rate. The German/Axis forces trapped at Stalingrad were fighting and trying to stay alive under extreme conditions. This was an abnormal combat situation for them.

Good luck in finding hard KIA data for Stalingrad. Hopefully some new sources of information will be found that will help us all understand this great battle in more detail.

Cheers

[Stiltzkin]

Per my post, this is about the Soviet 64 Army, so I was taking paragraphs from my Feb 1943 chapter which was reviewing losses of the 64 Army during Operation Ring, Jan 10 to Feb 2 1943. So in this case, the Axis forces suffered/lost much more than the 64 Army did.

Citation needed, no source gives bloody casualties for Axis forces during the closure of the ring. If they were heavily worn out, wounded and out of ammo then yes, perhaps there would be a chance that the exchange rate might have favoured the soviets, however I have not found any information on this and it seems fairly unlikely, because the exchange rate during the 4th quarter of 1942 was substantially in favour of the Axis.

(Laskin, Ivan A. On the path to the Turning Point. Moscow, Voenizdat, 1977 Part 2 - Chapter 5

Remember that you cannot use enemy reports on casualties if you cannot put them into the right context. Additionally, Soviet sources are propaganda infused sources and rarely any useful.

I would also be wary of estimation via ratios and assuming some fixed loss rate. The German/Axis forces trapped at Stalingrad were fighting and trying to stay alive under extreme conditions. This was an abnormal combat situation for them.

The value is not fixed but relative and I am aware of this, I have quantified most battles and I can easily state that City fighting is not like it is presented in movies and literature. Studies like U-1 Measuring the Effects of Combat in Cities, Phase I (Jan. 11, 2002) and the USMC MOUT operations in urbanized terrain describing battles such as Aachen, Manila, Arnhem, Ortona, Ashrafiyeh, Quang Tri City, Ban Me Thuot, Beirut, Seoul, Sidon ,Berlin, Stalingrad, Cherbourg, Suez City, Hue, Tel Zaatar, Jerusalem, Tyre, Khorramshahr, etc. are useful.

Good luck in finding hard KIA data for Stalingrad. Hopefully some new sources of information will be found that will help us all understand this great battle in more detail.

You won't find any, the last information is up to the 12.1. The war diary of the 6th army shows losses for the units that went into the city, if you compare those to the losses sustained by the Don and Stalingrad fronts in the same period the exchange rate still favours the Axis. viewtopic.php?f=79&t=227772

[nota]

if the guy is in the Stalingrad pocket and dies
I would count him KIA no matter if a house collapses a truck hit him ect
add in frozen starved sick ect who would not die if not in a collapsing pocket
they were all in the action and killed by it to me

[Stiltzkin]

they were all in the action and killed by it to me

Well military history and classifications do not work according to "you" or personal beliefs, this has nothing to do with semantics, but should you truly count everyone as KIA, then lets go from the information that is known:
Reposting this: http://necrometrics.com/battles.htm

165,000 fallen Germans, for a total of 270,000 fallen Axis troops, so approx. 100,000 of Auxiliaries. 480,000 fallen Soviets.

if the guy is in the Stalingrad pocket and dies
I would count him KIA no matter if a house collapses a truck hit him ect

Only a part of KIA would be sustained in the city itself. If a truck hits him this is counted as an accident.

[FORBIN Yves]

I have do Advanced search and i don't find have we please a topic for Fall Blau especialy, ORBAT, units strength etc... and i search number of tanks for 22th Pz including Uranus Operation, thanks.

[DavidFrankenberg]

So, if i sum up : 300.000 germans in the pocket (22.11). At the end (7.2), they were 91.000 prisoners...

Mathematically, 200.000 of them has died in the pocket of Stalingrad from 22.1 to 7.2.

If i am wrong, tell me how many germans were in the pocket after 22.1. For the numbers of prisoners, that means surviving germans in the pocket the 7.2, i guess everyoen agreee around 90.000.

[Art]

So, if i sum up : 300.000 germans in the pocket (22.11).

That's a bit of an overstatement:
Regarding the difference in time and the consequent numbers off losses, these numbers are prety much the same as the one off the Oberquartiermeister of the 6th Army on 6 December. The total off rations in the Kessel was 275.000 men, including 20.300 Hiwi's and 11.000 Romanians. (sources off the Romanian Army say they had 12.600 men in the Kessel. There were also some hundreds italians) When the 15.000 losses between 21 november and 6 December "only in the Kessel" are added, this would mean that on 22 november almost 290.000 men were surrounded.

At the end (7.2), they were 91.000 prisoners...

That's a most common numbers, let's say this way. You should also remember about evacuation by air (some tens of thousands).

[DavidFrankenberg]

So, if i sum up : 300.000 germans in the pocket (22.11).

That's a bit of an overstatement:
Regarding the difference in time and the consequent numbers off losses, these numbers are prety much the same as the one off the Oberquartiermeister of the 6th Army on 6 December. The total off rations in the Kessel was 275.000 men, including 20.300 Hiwi's and 11.000 Romanians. (sources off the Romanian Army say they had 12.600 men in the Kessel. There were also some hundreds italians) When the 15.000 losses between 21 november and 6 December "only in the Kessel" are added, this would mean that on 22 november almost 290.000 men were surrounded.

At the end (7.2), they were 91.000 prisoners...

That's a most common numbers, let's say this way. You should also remember about evacuation by air (some tens of thousands).

Thank you for the correction. But, concerning the "rations", i have read that this system is not very accurate to estimate the true number of german soldiers alive since many Germans didnt declare when a comrade died in order to keep on receiving his ration during the siege.
There was a croatian unit too in the pocket. That's why croatian hymn was played on radio after the surrending.

[Stiltzkin]

That's a bit of an overstatement:
Regarding the difference in time and the consequent numbers off losses, these numbers are prety much the same as the one off the Oberquartiermeister of the 6th Army on 6 December. The total off rations in the Kessel was 275.000 men, including 20.300 Hiwi's and 11.000 Romanians. (sources off the Romanian Army say they had 12.600 men in the Kessel. There were also some hundreds italians) When the 15.000 losses between 21 november and 6 December "only in the Kessel" are added, this would mean that on 22 november almost 290.000 men were surrounded.

I know it does not matter but...that is a hilarious discussion in there

[Art]

Croatian regiment was a part of the German 100 Leichte Division and so was counted as part of the German strength.
As I understand the ration strength must be adequate as a count of heads and mouths in the pocket. Yet I don't understand if it includes Soviet POWs which were present in the pocket.

[DavidFrankenberg]

Croatian regiment was a part of the German 100 Leichte Division and so was counted as part of the German strength.

Didnt know that. Many thanks.

As I understand the ration strength must be adequate as a count of heads and mouths in the pocket. Yet I don't understand if it includes Soviet POWs which were present in the pocket.

Do you think Germans could afford feeding soviet POWS since they had huge difficulties to feed themselves ? I fear they could not. How many Soviet POWs did they get ? I have never read something about that. Looks like they did not take prisoners.

[Stiltzkin]

Well, generally speaking the ration strength (just as well as Kopfstärke) could include: non military attachments, manpower from other military organizations, sick and wounded, as well as PoWs.

Thank you for the correction. But, concerning the "rations", i have read that this system is not very accurate to estimate the true number of german soldiers alive since many Germans didnt declare when a comrade died in order to keep on receiving his ration during the siege.
There was a croatian unit too in the pocket. That's why croatian hymn was played on radio after the surrending.

Well, what you want is Tagesstärke, daily strength, with all momentarily available servicemen of the unit, which would be generally about <41% of ration strength. Then follows "Kampf-" and "Gefechtsstärke", combat and front strenghts of units.

[Art]

Do you think Germans could afford feeding soviet POWS since they had huge difficulties to feed themselves ?

Not really much. See the known story of Dulag-205. There were several thousand prisoners in POWs camps located inside the pocket who suffered severe malnutrition.