Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

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EL KAISER
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Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

Postby EL KAISER » 08 Sep 2017 02:55

I have read in many web pages that in June or July 1941 Stalin tried to surrender to Nazi Germany negotiating through the Bulgarian embassy offering Hitler the same land as the treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Also, some say that in 1942, after the horrible Soviet May offensive and the subsequent German offensive that threatened to cut off the USSR with the Caucasus region, Stalin again tried to negotiate with him. Does someone knows if this is true? A guy in Yahoo! Answers that claims to be a Military Historian says so.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 953AARk9pm

Max Payload
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

Postby Max Payload » 08 Sep 2017 10:24

I am unaware of any credible evidence of Soviet peace feelers in 1941/42.
In his paper, 'Stalin and the Prospects of a Separate Peace in World War II' the Czech/American historian Vojtech Mastny states, "... after June 1941 the Nazis proved by their behavior that so long as they retained the upper hand the only peace terms the Soviet Union could expect would be complete submission. Russia's sole alternative was to fight on, and any signs of faltering resolve would have, if anything, given further encouragement to the enemy ... "
By the spring of '43, after Stalingrad but before Citadel, the situation had changed to the Soviet's advantage, but a purely military outcome remained a distant and potentially unachievable prospect. In January 1943 an article in the party journal 'Bolshevik', which would certainly have had Stalin's stamp of approval, stated that, "... separation of politics and strategy, and the neglect of the requirements of politics for purely strategic reasons are fraught with dangerous consequences. . . . Politics and war influence each other but they are not factors of the same order; primacy always belongs to politics."
Despite a possible inclination for Stalin in the first half of '43 to explore a peace deal, evidence for an April '43 meeting in Sweden between German and Soviet representatives remains rather tenuous. Mastny cites as the source, "Swedish informants of the American Office of Strategic Services" who claimed "... a Swede with connections at the Russian legation was said to have arranged a meeting of diplomats at a country estate ..."
Mastny concludes that, "Although there is no way of checking the accuracy of its [the Swedish informants'] details, it is quite probable that informal exchanges occurred at Soviet initiative."
Evidence for a June '43 meeting in Sweden seems somewhat stronger. The American ambassador reported to Washington that at least one member of the Soviet legation seemed to have met with a low-level diplomat from the German foreign ministry on 16 June, and five days later Thomsen, the German Ambassador to Sweden, reported to Berlin that he had heard that a Soviet diplomat in Sweden had expressed a wish to "meet with a gentleman from the German foreign service with whom he was acquainted."

Art
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

Postby Art » 08 Sep 2017 11:57

Peace feelers via Bulgarian Embassy in 1941 is a known story:
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=56316
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=160502

Max Payload
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

Postby Max Payload » 08 Sep 2017 13:27

I've never been sure of how much credence could be placed on the Sudoplatov/Stamenov story or Beria's part, if any, in it. All very murky and clandestine.
As for Liddell Hart's Molotov in Kirovograd in 1943 story, that is without any foundation

Omeganian
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

Postby Omeganian » 08 Sep 2017 15:29

There is the February 1942 "document", but as Mark Solonin points out, it looks less like evidence and more like extremely idiotic trolling.

Solonin does say that Stalin might have delayed any formal meetings with the West leaders in order to keep the door open for the possibility of some truce or alliance with Hitler, but even he admits it is mere speculation.

Art
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

Postby Art » 08 Sep 2017 16:55

Max Payload wrote:I've never been sure of how much credence could be placed on the Sudoplatov/Stamenov story or Beria's part, if any, in it. All very murky and clandestine.
As for Liddell Hart's Molotov in Kirovograd in 1943 story, that is without any foundation

Beria after his arrest in 1953 supported Sudoplatov's version as far as I remember. At least that's a known testimony.
Alleged meetings at Mtsensk, Kirovograd etc are most certainly urban legends.

Knouterer
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

Postby Knouterer » 08 Sep 2017 18:26

Before the start of Operation Barbarossa, Hitler stated very clearly that this would be a war of destruction (Vernichtungskrieg). The Third Reich could not coexist with Bolshevism; it was us or them, in his view.

Given that mindset, I can't imagine that he would have approved any peace negotiations, at least not about anything short of unconditional surrender.

I also don't see how Stalin could expect to survive, politically and physically, a humiliating peace involving a massive loss of territory.
"The true spirit of conversation consists in building on another man's observation, not overturning it." Edward George Bulwer-Lytton

Max Payload
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

Postby Max Payload » 09 Sep 2017 00:58

Knouterer wrote:Given that mindset, I can't imagine that he would have approved any peace negotiations, ...

Stalin's great blunder was his failure to understand that mindset for far too long. We know that Hitler would not have settled anything short of a humiliating peace involving a massive loss of Soviet territory but in the initial phase of the conflict Stalin may have been unaware of that and he might have felt he could sell and survive a return to the August 1939 borders. The question is, given the disasters unfolding on the battlefield, did he make any attempt to explore that possibility or something close to it? There does not appear to be any documentary evidence that he did, and if he did, the effort may have been known to just a few individuals. So then you are in to a world of speculation and rumour.
- Stalin and Molotov ordered Beria to arrange a meeting between Sudoplatov and Stamenov.
- Beria arranged a meeting between Sudoplatov and Stamenov in late June without Stalin's knowledge.
-The meeting took place in late July but Stamenov never reported it to the Bulgarian government.
- Sudoplatov hinted to Stamenov that Stalin was willing to surrender the Ukraine to German occupation.

Here is John Lukacs' take on it (June 1941: Hitler and Stalin - page 123), "The documentary evidence of this episode is there in a long memorandum written by Sudoplatov in August 1953 - after Stalin's death, and after Beria had been arrested by Khrushchev and Co. ... This document has been printed ... with the endnote that in other Russian archives, papers or documents of such a meeting between Sudoplatov and Stamenov were not found. ... Allegedly in 1953 two men were sent to Sofia from Moscow to interrogate Stamenov, who did not tell them anything. We also ought to consider Sudoplatov's purposes in writing this memorandum in July or August 1953. He had every reason to save his skin, to disassociate himself from Beria, indeed, to accuse Beria of 'treason' (these are his words at the end of the memorandum) at a time when Beria's closest henchmen (Dekanozov, for example) were about to share Beria's fate, execution. According to Sudoplatov, Beria acted without letting anyone else in the Soviet government know. According to Volkogonov, Stalin and Molotov knew - indeed, he reports that they met with Stamenov, which I consider highly implausible. ..."

randwick
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

Postby randwick » 09 Sep 2017 07:50

.
It's typical Stalin way of doing things to have half a dozen irons into the fire at the same time
the peace feelers were not meant to be pursued as such , simply to guage what Hitler thinking was, the terms proposed should ,there be any ,would tell him what to expect .
a bit like calling the contract at bridge ,

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

Postby DavidFrankenberg » 09 Sep 2017 14:59

Max Payload wrote:Here is John Lukacs' take on it (June 1941: Hitler and Stalin - page 123), "The documentary evidence of this episode is there in a long memorandum written by Sudoplatov in August 1953 - after Stalin's death, and after Beria had been arrested by Khrushchev and Co. ... This document has been printed ... with the endnote that in other Russian archives, papers or documents of such a meeting between Sudoplatov and Stamenov were not found. ... Allegedly in 1953 two men were sent to Sofia from Moscow to interrogate Stamenov, who did not tell them anything. We also ought to consider Sudoplatov's purposes in writing this memorandum in July or August 1953. He had every reason to save his skin, to disassociate himself from Beria, indeed, to accuse Beria of 'treason' (these are his words at the end of the memorandum) at a time when Beria's closest henchmen (Dekanozov, for example) were about to share Beria's fate, execution. According to Sudoplatov, Beria acted without letting anyone else in the Soviet government know. According to Volkogonov, Stalin and Molotov knew - indeed, he reports that they met with Stamenov, which I consider highly implausible. ..."


Lukacs seems to content himself of the post-Beria version of the story. The absence of russian archive can not be surprising since they may have been cleaned up. The 1941 file can be a forgery.

Sudoplatov has written his memories after the collapse of USSR : Special Tasks. https://www.amazon.com/Special-Tasks-An ... 0316821152 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Tasks
I add these nterviews of Sudoplatov : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfTTX570abM ; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBowdp6nEG8, its in russian.

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

Postby DavidFrankenberg » 12 Sep 2017 02:55

I was writing the whole passage of Lukacs' book upon Stalin's first reactions to Barbarossa, but it has disappeared...
So sorry, but i would just give the page : Lukacs Hitler Stalin, p.121. Following Lukacs, Stalin has called the german embassy on monday 23 to ask for a possible agreement... As surpising as it may seem, Stalin thought possible an agreement with Hitler. Lukacs does not say much.
But in an other book, Erickson Hitler vs Stalin (2002) p.10, i found that :
In May 1941, evidence of war intensified. Soviet agents in Germany
confirmed German military preparations but added a fatal qualification
that war would be preceded by a German ultimatum. This only
encouraged Stalin's policy of appeasement,
Was Stalin phoning in the quest for the ultimatum ? The terms of the ultimatum could have been the terms of a peace agreements.
Then Lukcas goes on the Beria's Tale about Stamenov and Sudoplatov. In his 53 report, Sudoplatov states that this intrigue was stopped by Stamenov's refusal to propose HItler a peace in exchange of Ukraine and Baltic States. But is this serious ? Stamnov saying "no" to Beria/Stalin ?
Sudoplatov said that Stamenov refused it to cut all gossips about that, just to incriminize Beria. He didnot mention Stalin nor Molotov, because the aime was just to incriminize Beria... Molotov was still powerful at the time.
So, i guess its reasonable to assume that Stalin and Molotov discussed about peace agreements to send to Hitler for days between 22 and 27; on 27 june they decided to do it ; so, they asked Beria to proceed, and Beria sent his man Sudoplatov who met Stamenov somewhen in july.

Jukov in 1966 said that Stalin made such a peace offer in october 41, after Ukraine had fallen. So it seems that Stalin renewed it in october.

Max Payload
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

Postby Max Payload » 13 Sep 2017 00:48

DavidFrankenberg wrote:So, i guess its reasonable to assume that Stalin and Molotov discussed about peace agreements to send to Hitler for days between 22 and 27; on 27 june they decided to do it ; so, they asked Beria to proceed, and Beria sent his man Sudoplatov who met Stamenov somewhen in july.

I'm not sure that it is a reasonable assumption. If, indeed, that was their decision, if only to ascertain the scope of Germany's war aims, they went about it in a remarkably half-hearted, inefficient and ineffective manner.
Stalin's initial reaction to to the German invasion was clearly one of incredulity. The note delivered by the German ambassador on 22 June and Hitler's radio address that morning talked of Soviet provocations and of a British/Soviet conspiracy. Stalin may initially have hoped that it was all a ghastly misunderstanding, or that Hitler had fallen under the influence of war-mongering generals, and on day-1 he seems to have been ready to approach the Japanese government to arbitrate over the conflict. Whatever approach was made to the German ambassador on day-2, it must have been immediately before he was interned.

DavidFrankenberg wrote:Jukov in 1966 said that Stalin made such a peace offer in october 41, after Ukraine had fallen.

When in 1966? During his television interview?

DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

Postby DavidFrankenberg » 13 Sep 2017 03:05

Max Payload wrote:
DavidFrankenberg wrote:So, i guess its reasonable to assume that Stalin and Molotov discussed about peace agreements to send to Hitler for days between 22 and 27; on 27 june they decided to do it ; so, they asked Beria to proceed, and Beria sent his man Sudoplatov who met Stamenov somewhen in july.

I'm not sure that it is a reasonable assumption. If, indeed, that was their decision, if only to ascertain the scope of Germany's war aims, they went about it in a remarkably half-hearted, inefficient and ineffective manner.
Stalin's initial reaction to to the German invasion was clearly one of incredulity. The note delivered by the German ambassador on 22 June and Hitler's radio address that morning talked of Soviet provocations and of a British/Soviet conspiracy. Stalin may initially have hoped that it was all a ghastly misunderstanding, or that Hitler had fallen under the influence of war-mongering generals, and on day-1 he seems to have been ready to approach the Japanese government to arbitrate over the conflict. Whatever approach was made to the German ambassador on day-2, it must have been immediately before he was interned.

Let me quote Lukacs :
On monday 23 june he instructed his own interpreter and appointed a special officer in charge to call on Schulenburg and ascertain wether the ambassador had any particular requests. When 2 weeks later Schulenburg on his way home to Germany via Turkey met Franz von Papen the german ambassador there, he said that he thought that even then Stalin might still have hoped for "some kind of a tacit agreement with Hitler'

Too bad, Lukacs here cites nothing... from what does he quote him ? what is his source ?
DavidFrankenberg wrote:Jukov in 1966 said that Stalin made such a peace offer in october 41, after Ukraine had fallen.

When in 1966? During his television interview?
Maybe, i just know it was released publicly in 1990.

Max Payload
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

Postby Max Payload » 13 Sep 2017 10:39

DavidFrankenberg wrote:Jukov in 1966 said that Stalin made such a peace offer in october 41, after Ukraine had fallen. ...it was released publicly in 1990.

Perhaps you are referring to the Moskovskye Novosti article of 7 May 1989 which referenced Zhukov (long dead by then) and a meeting with Stalin and Beria on 7 October 1941. (Basically a retelling of the Stalin/Beria/Stamenov story but set in October). I think that Khrushchev, ultimately no fan of Stalin or Beria, may have relayed a similar story but this time set in 1942.

ljadw
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Re: Stalin tried to surrender in 1942

Postby ljadw » 13 Sep 2017 15:29

People who on Yahoo are claiming to be military experts are mostly impostors .

What happened is that after Stalingrad there were from German side unauthorised peace-feelings on a very low level, who were refused by the Sovjets .

The whole story has been discussed on this forum a few years ago .


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