German and Soviet manpower

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5GTA
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German and Soviet manpower

Postby 5GTA » 22 Sep 2017 18:53

I'm looking for the total manpower of the German forces in the East at various points in the war, such as January 1943. The same for Axis Allied and Soviet forces on the Eastern Front. What would be the most reliable sources?

Art
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Re: German and Soviet manpower

Postby Art » 23 Sep 2017 09:49

5GTA wrote:I'm looking for the total manpower of the German forces in the East at various points in the war, such as January 1943.

Take a look at this topic:
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=219452

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Re: German and Soviet manpower

Postby Art » 23 Sep 2017 19:59

From the link above we have 2 945 thous. men (in rounded numbers) between Leningrad and Caucasus in the German Army and SS as of 1 January 1943. Probably including Luftwaffe field divisions. One should also add:
20 Mountain Army in Lapland/Arctic - some 150-170 thous. men
Luftwaffe - ? About 400 thous. ration strength on the Eastern Front in January 43
Kriegsmarine - ?
Hiwis and collaborationist formations not included in Army numbers - ?
Personnel in civil organizations -?
There are many missing pieces as you can see.

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Re: German and Soviet manpower

Postby Stiltzkin » 23 Sep 2017 23:06

Do note that it is difficult to compare Soviet and German manpower. What you generally want is Verbände & Fechtende Heerestruppen, comparing Tagesstärke with Soviet figures. Those are from my experience at least in the range between daily and actual strengths.
A good place to look is /viewtopic.php?f=48&t=223939 the NARA T78 Rolls around 400-420, they are unfortunately not all included in the series. Or here http://wwii-microfilm.blogspot.de/
It is actually of little relevance, it is far more important to know how much more men can be fed into battle.
Hiwis and collaborationist formations not included in Army numbers - ?

They are, usually in Verpflegungsstärke (ration). What is often missing are non GHQ units and those directly under command of the GHQ.

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Re: German and Soviet manpower

Postby Art » 24 Sep 2017 09:01

German Allies on EF:

Romania - some 300 000 men in the operational area (Stalingrad, Caucasus) in November 1942. By 1.1.43 huge losses were suffered at Stalingrad. Remaining strength - ? Also
Romanian occupational forces in Crimea (2 divisions) - ?
Romanian occupational forces in Transnistria (4 divisions) - ?
Romanian Navy in the Black Sea - ?
According to Axworthy Romanian operational strength deployed outside Romania between 1.11.42 and 31.12.42 was 490 000 men

Italia - 230 000 men in the 8 Army in the summer 1942. By 1.1.43 huge losses suffered at the Don River. Remaining strength - ?

Hungary - about 210 000 men in the 2 Army (Don) by January 1942.
Also Hungarian security forces in the occupied area (3 divisions) - ?

Finland - 400 000 men in the Armed forces as of 1.12.42. Of them operational strength:
Field Army - 270 000
Navy - 25 000
Air Force - 10 000
The rest in the home area, hospitals, construction units etc.

Slovakia - one mobile division in Caucasus, probably some 10 000 men. Also one security division in Ukraine/Belorussia.

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Re: German and Soviet manpower

Postby Art » 24 Sep 2017 09:17

Soviet Armed Forces:
Red Army (including army air force) in the operational area on 1.1.43 - 6 191 000 military personnel (as reported by E.Tschadenko on 14.2.42). Which must include forces in Caucasus on the Turkish border and in Iran.
Red Army's civil personnel - 158 000 men in the operational area as of 1.1.43 (Krivosheev)
Operational Navy - 255 000 as of 15.1.43
NKVD troops in the operational area - ?
NKPS railroad engineers - 113 000 men in the operational area
Other civil organizations - ? (must be a small number)
Irregular forces in the frontline zone (militia etc) - ?

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losna
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Re: German and Soviet manpower

Postby losna » 02 Oct 2017 08:15

Art wrote:Soviet Armed Forces:
Red Army (including army air force) in the operational area on 1.1.43 - 6 191 000 military personnel (as reported by E.Tschadenko on 14.2.42). Which must include forces in Caucasus on the Turkish border and in Iran.
Red Army's civil personnel - 158 000 men in the operational area as of 1.1.43 (Krivosheev)
Operational Navy - 255 000 as of 15.1.43
NKVD troops in the operational area - ?
NKPS railroad engineers - 113 000 men in the operational area
Other civil organizations - ? (must be a small number)
Irregular forces in the frontline zone (militia etc) - ?


Good day Art, do you have figures for the total manpower pool available to the Soviets in 1942 - thus excluding people living under German occupation?

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Re: German and Soviet manpower

Postby Art » 02 Oct 2017 17:32

What exactly? Total civil population, military-age men, number of active military?

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losna
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Re: German and Soviet manpower

Postby losna » 03 Oct 2017 08:35

Art wrote:What exactly? Total civil population, military-age men, number of active military?


Military-age men, I think, maybe with numbers on exemptions and troops that could't be used against the Germans. Thanks in advance.

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Re: German and Soviet manpower

Postby Art » 04 Oct 2017 21:08

There is a couple of known documents. Namely a report from general Shchadenko to Stalin from 10.9.42 with a review of situation by September 1942:
A number of men liable to military service (classes of 1890-1925) estimated as 31 500 000, of them:
- 18 069 000 taken to the military (*)
- 5 631 000 lost on occupied territory
- 250 000 ethnic German, Finns etc exempt from military service
- 880 000 called up in August-September (mostly a class of 1924)
- a remainder: 6 623 000 (or 6 563 000 if you do the math correctly - reserved in economy, transferred to labor columns, older ages, limited fitness, Central Asia natives etc.
Also not included in the numbers above 1 156 000 men in GULAG and prisons.

(*) including:
11 055 700 men in Army, Navy, NKVD troops as of 1.9.42
766 000 men in hospitals
1 150 000 - discharged or on leave for medical reasons
5 097 300 - irrevocable casualties (killed, missing, prisoners, died of wounds).

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Re: German and Soviet manpower

Postby Art » 04 Oct 2017 21:26

The second report from Tschadenko submitted on 14 February 1943, situation as of 1.1.43:

In Army, Navy, NKVD troops - 10 947 000 (*) men plus 851 000 in hospitals
class of 1925 in process of call-up - 817 000
recruits transferred to industry work - 2 541 000
discharged or on leave for medical reasons - 982 000
nationalities exempt from military service - 250 000
irrevocable causalities - 5 950 000
lost on occupied territory - 5 631 000 + 965 000 (classes of 1924-1925)
A remainder (not called up yet) - 3 724 576 (of them about 2.5 million reserved in economy)

GULAG, NKPS troops and other minor military seem to be forgotten

(*) Breakdown of military:
On the front - 6 191 350 men
Far East - 1 131 696
internal military districts - 1 932 995 (including 1 422 659 in replacement, training units, and military schools)
others - 744 901 (reserves, units in transfer, airborne forces, separate air force and air defense elements)
Total Red Army - 10 000 942
About 946 000 in Navy and NKVD (calculated from the difference)

Those data were not necessary accurate and must contain some guesstimates and double counting, still they provide the general idea.

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losna
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Re: German and Soviet manpower

Postby losna » 12 Oct 2017 09:51

Art wrote:The second report from Tschadenko submitted on 14 February 1943, situation as of 1.1.43:

In Army, Navy, NKVD troops - 10 947 000 (*) men plus 851 000 in hospitals
class of 1925 in process of call-up - 817 000
recruits transferred to industry work - 2 541 000
discharged or on leave for medical reasons - 982 000
nationalities exempt from military service - 250 000
irrevocable causalities - 5 950 000
lost on occupied territory - 5 631 000 + 965 000 (classes of 1924-1925)
A remainder (not called up yet) - 3 724 576 (of them about 2.5 million reserved in economy)

GULAG, NKPS troops and other minor military seem to be forgotten

(*) Breakdown of military:
On the front - 6 191 350 men
Far East - 1 131 696
internal military districts - 1 932 995 (including 1 422 659 in replacement, training units, and military schools)
others - 744 901 (reserves, units in transfer, airborne forces, separate air force and air defense elements)
Total Red Army - 10 000 942
About 946 000 in Navy and NKVD (calculated from the difference)

Those data were not necessary accurate and must contain some guesstimates and double counting, still they provide the general idea.

Thanks a lot Art.


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