Jassy–Kishinev Offensive

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joro
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Re: Jassy–Kishinev Offensive

Post by joro » 09 Feb 2018 13:51

Forces that were met further on at Iassi included elements of the Romanian 5 Cavalry Division (dismounted) and some German troops (identified as belonging to the 258 Infantry Division).
It's "strange" somehow...because the german 258th Infantry Division fought the 3rd Ukrainian Front, so...how...it fought in the city of Jassy, against the 2nd Ukrainian Front ? :?

What "happened" to the romanian the 7th Infantry Division ?

Art
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Re: Jassy–Kishinev Offensive

Post by Art » 10 Feb 2018 16:09

joro wrote: It's "strange" somehow...because the german 258th Infantry Division fought the 3rd Ukrainian Front, so...how...it fought in the city of Jassy, against the 2nd Ukrainian Front ? :?
So they reported. It doesn't mean that this information was correct.
What "happened" to the romanian the 7th Infantry Division ?
I suppose those troops subject to the initial attack on 20 August were overran and lost cohesion to a large degree. That is confirmed by Axworthy who says that "remnants of the 7th Division were collected in the rear at Mogosesti"

BTW a map from Axworthy (Third Axis, Fourth Ally):

Image

joro
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Re: Jassy–Kishinev Offensive

Post by joro » 10 Feb 2018 18:43

Thank you .
I suppose those troops subject to the initial attack on 20 August were overran and lost cohesion to a large degree.
Yes...THIS was a "general" situation for the most of Axis troops in that region in those dramatic times...

What "happened" to the german the 76th and 79th Infantry Divisions ? I thought those units fought into the city of Jassy (somehow...it could be logical, at least the 79th ID... :? )
"remnants of the 7th Division were collected in the rear at Mogosesti"
It was...awful :o (so far behind the initial positions... :( )

So, the Soviet Army attacked on three directions: left (Carlig), center (right 'through' the city...) and right (maybe towards the Bahlui river... :? ) ?

And tanks...have there been tanks that have "climbed" the hill from Breazu to Copou, towards the city itself...? The slope is high enough... :?

Art
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Re: Jassy–Kishinev Offensive

Post by Art » 12 Feb 2018 14:06

From war diary of the 50 Rifle Division.

Situation on 1 August 1944:

Image

Situation on 19 August:

Image

Battle plane:

Image

Operation on 20 August:

Image

Operations on 21-22 August:

Image

According to the first map opposite to the 50 RD is 5 Romanian Cavalry Division (8, 11, 6 Cavalry Regiments)

50 Rifle Division is on the right wing of the 48 Rifle Corps between 294 Rifle Division (right) and 111 Rifle Division (left). On 19 after noon a probing attack against Romanian positions south-west of Rediu is made by 1st Battalion/359 Rifle Regiment. 4 Romanian prisoners from 16 Infantry Regiment/7 Division are captured. Own losses (19.8 and night 19/20.8) - 16 killed, 49 wounded.
In the morning of 20 August attack by small elements after an artillery preparation, a first Romanian trench line is captured. After 294 Rifle Division make a successful advance on the right an attack is continued with division's main forces. After noon Vulturi is taken. Axis counterattacks with a small number of tanks are repulsed in the second half of the day. About 200 prisoners and many weapons are captured, own losses - 35 killed and 146 wounded.
On 21 August the division pursues retreating Axis forces to the Bahlui River. In the evening a divisional vanguard (recon company, training company and anti-tank battery) enters the north-east suburbs of Iasi where it meets elements of the German 226 Infantry Regiment/79 Infantry Division (2 prisoners from this regiment are captured at Iasi). On 21.8 270 POWs anc considerable trophies are taken, own losses - 30 killed and 110 wounded.

Art
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Re: Jassy–Kishinev Offensive

Post by Art » 12 Feb 2018 14:15

Assessment of Axis forces by the staff of the 48 Rifle Corps:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=112591160

From Moimesti to the area west of Stanca - Romanian 5 Cavalry Division
From Stance to hill 197 (east of Stanca) - German 79 Infantry Division
Hill 185 (south of Icuseni) and further to the east - Romanian 11 Infantry Division
(assessments of personnel and equipment strength are of doubtful accuracy)

That coincides with situation maps posted above.

Art
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Re: Jassy–Kishinev Offensive

Post by Art » 12 Feb 2018 19:19

111 Rifle Division - to the left of the 50 RD. The plan is to roll up axis defenses from right to left using a breakthrough made by the 50 Division. On the morning of 20 August the divisions takes part in artillery preparation. At about 11.00 am the right wing regiment (468 Rifle Regiment) joins the attack taking use of progress achieved by the 50 RD. By the end of the day 468 RR takes Hill 158 and outflanks the Stanca monastery. The other two regiments stay on the same positions as before. 50 prisoners belonging to 7 and 11 Cavalry Regiments/7 Cavalry Division are captured. According to the divisional war diary the Stanca monastery is defended by elements of 212 and 208 Regiments/79 German Infantry Division. Own losses - 30 killed, 75 wounded. On the morning of 21 august the division captures Stanca and monastery and then pursuits Axis to Holboca. 193 prisoners captured in two days (20-21.8.44)

joro
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Re: Jassy–Kishinev Offensive

Post by joro » 13 Feb 2018 09:20

Again ... WOW! 8O Thank you ... so much information ... I have to "process" them ... :) :wink:

I read somewhere that the Soviet tanks (3rd Battalion/233 Tank Brigade ?) have entered the city by Copou (towards the downtown...)...so...Did the soviet tanks enter Copou (towards the downtown...) through Cîrlig, Breazu/Munteni or ...? :?
Did the tanks play an important / decisive role in conquering the city of Iasi ?

Art
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Re: Jassy–Kishinev Offensive

Post by Art » 14 Feb 2018 11:36

Unfortunately war diaries of other documents of the 233 TBr are not accessible, at least right now they aren't. Other docs don't provide many details.

joro
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Re: Jassy–Kishinev Offensive

Post by joro » 14 Feb 2018 12:41

Art wrote:Unfortunately war diaries of other documents of the 233 TBr are not accessible, at least right now they aren't. Other docs don't provide many details.
Ok ... I understand ... BUT ... it's just about tanks ... not a particular tank unit ...: did the Soviet tanks enter the city of Iasi through Copou via Breazu or the left / right "wing" ? :?

Thank you .

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Re: Jassy–Kishinev Offensive

Post by Art » 15 Feb 2018 19:29

War diary of the 859 Rifle Regiment says that its 3rd Battalion with tanks "crossed the railroad and entered the southern part of Iasi". I guess, that is supposed to mean that they entered the city from the west (or from their right). So it appears from the map, at least.

joro
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Re: Jassy–Kishinev Offensive

Post by joro » 16 Feb 2018 10:56

Art wrote:War diary of the 859 Rifle Regiment says that its 3rd Battalion with tanks "crossed the railroad and entered the southern part of Iasi". I guess, that is supposed to mean that they entered the city from the west (or from their right). So it appears from the map, at least.
Yes, I think ... in this case, it is the west "wave / wing" (the one in Podu Iloaiei / Letcani / Pacurari, "the railway ..."); this "wave" of tanks (and infantry, of course) has entered the city much easier (at least apparently...) than the north "wave", due to the predominantly flat, campy relief.
BUT ... the north "wave" (from Rediu / Breazu / Copou ...)...I do not know ... :?

joro
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Re: Jassy–Kishinev Offensive

Post by joro » 19 Feb 2018 10:50

joro wrote:
Art wrote:War diary of the 859 Rifle Regiment says that its 3rd Battalion with tanks "crossed the railroad and entered the southern part of Iasi". I guess, that is supposed to mean that they entered the city from the west (or from their right). So it appears from the map, at least.
Yes, I think ... in this case, it is the west "wave / wing" (the one in Podu Iloaiei / Letcani / Pacurari, "the railway ..."); this "wave" of tanks (and infantry, of course) has entered the city much easier (at least apparently...) than the north "wave", due to the predominantly flat, campy relief.
BUT ... the north "wave" (from Rediu / Breazu / Copou ...)...I do not know ... :?

As I "predicted" ... :wink: the Soviet tanks (north 'wave' : 233 t.br.) approached the "area" with the easiest slope ... (the fastest advance possible): wink: so they entered the city of Jassy from N-NE ... 'following' the valley between Hill 170 and the Copou Hill (73CK map ...); from that "point" (Copou...) they rolled downhill at the maximum speed towards the downtown... Is it right...? :?

joro
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Re: Jassy–Kishinev Offensive

Post by joro » 26 Jun 2018 13:10

Art wrote:
joro wrote: It's "strange" somehow...because the german 258th Infantry Division fought the 3rd Ukrainian Front, so...how...it fought in the city of Jassy, against the 2nd Ukrainian Front ? :?
So they reported. It doesn't mean that this information was correct.
What "happened" to the romanian the 7th Infantry Division ?
I suppose those troops subject to the initial attack on 20 August were overran and lost cohesion to a large degree. That is confirmed by Axworthy who says that "remnants of the 7th Division were collected in the rear at Mogosesti"

BTW a map from Axworthy (Third Axis, Fourth Ally):

Image

HI again Art ! :wink:

About the attack on the city of Jassy: any information about a radio/communications vehicle of romanian forces (received' as help from germans): maybe a Sd.Kfz.223 - German Radio Communication Vehicle or a Steyr Type 1500A/01...?!? Have the Soviet forces found and/or destroyed such a vehicle in the fight on north / north-west of the city ?

So ... which Romanian unit defended (...) the city "itself" from the north / north-west ? 5 KD or 7 ID? :?


Thank you.
Last edited by joro on 27 Jun 2018 09:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Jeff Leach
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Re: Jassy–Kishinev Offensive

Post by Jeff Leach » 27 Jun 2018 06:24

joro wrote:Sorry, but the map is almost...unreadable... ;-( (the map is big...; maybe some details by focusing on the area/zone we talk about...?).

Thank you .
You can download the map and zoom in. The maps from the site are of real high-quality and I have never had any trouble with zooming in close enough to read them.

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