East Prussia january 1945

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
FORBIN Yves
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 23 Aug 2017 10:57
Location: FRANCE

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 13 Jun 2018 13:43

Thanks !
And on this map in attachement i think German defensive lines ? and we can trust their locations on the map ?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 4723
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 13 Jun 2018 16:30

There was a combination of pre-war German permanent fortifications, pre-war Polish permanent fortifications and positions built in 1944-45. Here is, for example, a photoalbum of the 5 Guards Tank Army with pics of fortifications/obstacles (Mlawa, Osterode, Deutsch Eylau, Elbing):
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=153719995

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 2291
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Kelvin » 14 Jun 2018 09:24

FORBIN Yves wrote:4 Army :
1 HG Pz Div : 42 Pz V + 35 Pz IV + 4 Stug : total 81
2 HG PzG Div : 32 Stug

With Corps :
259 Stug Bde : 43 Stug

2 Army :
7 Pz Div : 32 Pz V + 28 Pz IV : total 60
505 Heavy Panzer Bn : 52 Tiger I

With Corps :
209 Stug Bde : 29 Stug
909 Stug Bde : 30 Stug
185 Stug Bde : 28 Stug
249 Stug Bde : 28 Stug
279 Stug Bde : 18 Stug
190 Stug Bde : 29 Stug
904 Stug Bde : 31 Stug
909 Stug Bde : 30 Stug

7.Panzer division is much more powerful than you data above, She received 10 x Jagdpanzer IV L70(A) and 21 x Jagdpanzer IV L70(V) after Jan 1 1945, on the eve of Soviet offensive, she had 31 x Jagdpanzer IV L70, 13 x Marder II, 37 x Panther tanks and 28 x Pz IV tanks, 2 x Mobelwagen AA tanks.

And HG Korpstruppen : Pz.Jg.Abt. HG with 18 x Jagdpanzer IV L48 were attached to Fallschirm-PanzerGrenadier Division HG 2.

And I think it is sPz.Abt. 507 had 52 x Tiger I.

GregSingh
Member
Posts: 2495
Joined: 21 Jun 2012 01:11
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by GregSingh » 14 Jun 2018 10:27

505 Heavy Panzer Bn : 52 Tiger I
And I think it is sPz.Abt. 507 had 52 x Tiger I.
Both units were in East Prussia.

505 Heavy Panzer Bn
1 January 1945: 34 Tigers operational. Attachment to the XXXI.Armee-Korps.
12 January 1945: Assembly area in the Angerapp area

507 Heavy Panzer Bn
1 January 1945: 51 Tigers reported operational.
14 January 1945: Start of the main offensive of the 2nd Byelorussian Front. The battalion was alerted and moved to the area of Karniewo (the 1./ and 2./schwere PanzerAbteilung 507 moved in the direction of Czarnostów; the 3./schwere Panzer-Abteilung 507 went to Szlasy-Złotki).
I’m reading a book about anti-gravity. It’s impossible to put down.

FORBIN Yves
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 23 Aug 2017 10:57
Location: FRANCE

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 15 Jun 2018 22:43

Art wrote:There was a combination of pre-war German permanent fortifications, pre-war Polish permanent fortifications and positions built in 1944-45. Here is, for example, a photoalbum of the 5 Guards Tank Army with pics of fortifications/obstacles (Mlawa, Osterode, Deutsch Eylau, Elbing):
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=153719995
Great thanks
Kelvin wrote:

7.Panzer division is much more powerful than you data above, She received 10 x Jagdpanzer IV L70(A) and 21 x Jagdpanzer IV L70(V) after Jan 1 1945, on the eve of Soviet offensive, she had 31 x Jagdpanzer IV L70, 13 x Marder II, 37 x Panther tanks and 28 x Pz IV tanks, 2 x Mobelwagen AA tanks.

And HG Korpstruppen : Pz.Jg.Abt. HG with 18 x Jagdpanzer IV L48 were attached to Fallschirm-PanzerGrenadier Division HG 2.

And I think it is sPz.Abt. 507 had 52 x Tiger I.
I did not know but even with it do 90 to 95 Tanks/Jpz and 5th Pz was clearly more powerful with 118 whose especialy with 47 Pz V the Jagdpanzer IV L70 have a good gun low height but less capable than a Panther with a turet which fire to ennemy much more faster.

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 2291
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Kelvin » 16 Jun 2018 06:45

Hello, what I say is 7.Panzer division is much more powerful than your data on 7.Pz division. Not mean in comparsion with 5.Pz division. In term of other war material, in fact, 5.Pz division had more Wespe, Hummel, Grille, sd.kfz251/9 and sdkfz 251/16 Flammpanzerwagen than 7.Pz. division.
And remember that All Jagdpanzer possessed by 5. Pz division is Jagdpanzer IV L48, is firepower is less effective than 7.Pz divison 's L70. And only 25 x Jadpanzer IV L48 of 5.Pz division were operational on Dec 30 1944.And 7. Pz Jagdpanzer IV L70 (A) and (V) were almost all operational.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 4723
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 16 Jun 2018 17:54

Detailed situation map AOK 2 early January 1945:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/633771/map

Armor status of AOK 2 as of 31.12.1944:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/573838/zooms/8
Operational: 50 Tigers, 33 Panthers, 28 Pz-III/IV, 229 StuGs/StuHs, 18 misc. Total 358 operational tanks/assault guns plus 35 in repair. Weakening of the army throughout the month of December (I presume as a result of transfers of units to Hungary) is more than obvious.

Status of motor vehicles of AOK 2 in December 44:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/573830/zooms/8

User avatar
donwhite
Member
Posts: 143
Joined: 17 Dec 2004 00:38
Location: Australia

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by donwhite » 17 Jun 2018 09:33

Art, great post and Links. Very informative.

Cheers

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 4723
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 18 Jun 2018 18:52

You are welcome.
Detailed situation map AOK 2 early January 1945:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/633771/map
For comparison a Soviet intelligence map from the same area circa 15 January 1945:
https://vnr.github.io/wwii-maps/index.h ... 000002.jpg
All divisions were correctly identified, but certain difference in location of individual regiments or battalions.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 4723
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 18 Jun 2018 19:28

Number of weapons in AOK 2 (ten infantry and one tank division plus separate units) as of 31.12.1944:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/ru/n ... oepripasov

German rifles - 107 680
Rifles, 7-62mm (Soviet) - 720
German machine guns - 6952
Machine guns, 7.62mm (Soviet) - 215
Rifle grenade launchers - 3791
Pistols, 7.63mm (Soviet) - 73
Machine-pistols, 7.63-mm (Soviet) - 139
Pistols, 7.65mm - 6930
Pistols, 8mm - 17 633
Machine-pistols, 8mm - 7063
M22 pistols (Czech) - 137
MP44 assault rifles - 4142
7.5-mm machine guns (french) - 62
50-mm mortars (German) - 12
50-mm mortars (Soviet) - 5
81-mm mortars - 576
120-mm mortars - 258
75-mm light infantry guns - 218
76.2-mm infantry guns (Soviet) - 48
150-mm heavy infantry guns - 74
37-mm AT guns - 14
45-mm AT guns (Soviet) - 36
57-mm AT gun (US) - 1
50-mm AT guns - 5
75-mm AT guns (Pak 40) - 199
75-mm AT guns (Pak 97/38) - 8
76-mm AT guns (Soviet) - 5
Panzerfausts - 34 433
Panzerschrecks - 1679
50-mm tank guns (L42) - 1
50-mm tank guns (L60) - 9
75-mm tank guns (L24) - 29
75-mm tank guns (L43 and L48) - 29+195
75-mm tank guns (L70) - 39
88-mm tank guns - 55
105-mm assault howitzers - 46
20-mm Flaks - 130
20-mm quad Flaks - 13
20-mm tank guns - 18
37-mm Flaks - 33
88-mm Flaks - 12
75-mm mountain guns (Geb 36) - 25
105-mm howitzers mod.16 - 12
105-mm howitzers mod. 18 - 393
105-mm guns - 31
150-mm howitzers - 125
155-mm howitzers (French or Polish) - 4
210-mm howitzers (Mrs 18) - 5
150-mm rocket launchers - 80
210-mm rocket launchers - 18
300-mm rocket launchers - 36
280/320 rocket launchers - 30
73-mm rocket launchers - 21

FORBIN Yves
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 23 Aug 2017 10:57
Location: FRANCE

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 20 Jun 2018 12:17

Art wrote:Detailed situation map AOK 2 early January 1945:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/633771/map

Armor status of AOK 2 as of 31.12.1944:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/573838/zooms/8
Operational: 50 Tigers, 33 Panthers, 28 Pz-III/IV, 229 StuGs/StuHs, 18 misc. Total 358 operational tanks/assault guns plus 35 in repair. Weakening of the army throughout the month of December (I presume as a result of transfers of units to Hungary) is more than obvious.

Status of motor vehicles of AOK 2 in December 44:
http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/pages/573830/zooms/8
Nice files !

Appear Stug Brigades on Russian maps ofc infos can be less accurate than on a German map … by ex this 209 Stug Bde i have with 14 ID / XX AK and there between 129 and 299 ID/ XXIII AK, just a detail.
Stug Bde.JPG
(I presume as a result of transfers of units to Hungary)
Yes,

In AG Mitte and 2A Reserves : 3rd and 6 Pz Div transfered in Hungary ( arrive 8 and 20/12/44 to front ) BTW the 3rd was excellent with 168 tanks/assault guns/Jpz !!!

And with 9 Army AG Mitte/A Reserves change the 26/12... the 25/12 IV PZK SS to Modlin area also transfered in Hungary with 180 in 3 and 5th Pz SS reinforced by 2 Inf Bns of the 11 PZG SS.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... 9Armee.htm
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by FORBIN Yves on 20 Jun 2018 13:35, edited 1 time in total.

FORBIN Yves
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 23 Aug 2017 10:57
Location: FRANCE

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 20 Jun 2018 13:25

Kelvin wrote:
FORBIN Yves wrote:4 Army :
7.Panzer division is much more powerful than you data above, She received 10 x Jagdpanzer IV L70(A) and 21 x Jagdpanzer IV L70(V) after Jan 1 1945, on the eve of Soviet offensive, she had 31 x Jagdpanzer IV L70, 13 x Marder II, 37 x Panther tanks and 28 x Pz IV tanks, 2 x Mobelwagen AA tanks.

And HG Korpstruppen : Pz.Jg.Abt. HG with 18 x Jagdpanzer IV L48 were attached to Fallschirm-PanzerGrenadier Division HG 2.

And I think it is sPz.Abt. 507 had 52 x Tiger I.
Kelvin wrote:Hello, what I say is 7.Panzer division is much more powerful than your data on 7.Pz division. Not mean in comparsion with 5.Pz division. In term of other war material, in fact, 5.Pz division had more Wespe, Hummel, Grille, sd.kfz251/9 and sdkfz 251/16 Flammpanzerwagen than 7.Pz. division.
And remember that All Jagdpanzer possessed by 5. Pz division is Jagdpanzer IV L48, is firepower is less effective than 7.Pz divison 's L70. And only 25 x Jadpanzer IV L48 of 5.Pz division were operational on Dec 30 1944.And 7. Pz Jagdpanzer IV L70 (A) and (V) were almost all operational.
I have mentionned number in the Div the 01/01 and these Jpz arrive just after...

Jpz Bn 42 in Fire brigades and the stuff is excelent ... have the 8 january 21 Pz IV/70 in fact Jagdpanzer to Mielau surely with 7.Panzer Division the 13 when Russian attack.
In more 10 join the Div the 03/01 i think with Pz Rgt which have also received 17 Pz IV in december.

But in this amazing book i see often Mielau/Mlawa a center as Paderborn by examble where Armored units receive vehicles entrained there also maybe especialy Jagdpanzer ?

So according the book :

7 Pz
31 Pz IV/70
32 Panther ( 01/01 in the chart for each month )
28 Pz IV ( " " )
91

5 Pz
47 Panther
33 Pz IV
6 Stug
32 Jpz IV/Pz IV/70
118

But after never receive tanks/assault guns/Jpz replacements then 7th Pz used near Elbing providing a strong resistance get 17 Pz IV/70 and 17 Stug in 02/45 and 10 Pz IV/70 in 03/45.

At this time Germans produced a lot of armored vehicle without turets more easy to build and Panzer Divisions received it to replace tanks less numerous and the % of Stug/Jpz increasing in Pz Rgts up to april 45.

User avatar
donwhite
Member
Posts: 143
Joined: 17 Dec 2004 00:38
Location: Australia

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by donwhite » 21 Jun 2018 02:36

Courtesy of Art for reminding me of the existence the 'German Docs in Russia' website (an absolute treasure trove and I should check it out more often!) . Detailed Order of Battle for 4th Armee as at 4th January 1945- I've previously only seen this level of detail in a 'Heerestruppen der Unbersicht Armee Gruppe Mitte' document, but only up to the 7th December 1944.

http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... ect/zoom/9

Cheers

FORBIN Yves
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 23 Aug 2017 10:57
Location: FRANCE

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 21 Jun 2018 11:41

donwhite wrote:Courtesy of Art for reminding me of the existence the 'German Docs in Russia' website (an absolute treasure trove and I should check it out more often!) . Detailed Order of Battle for 4th Armee as at 4th January 1945- I've previously only seen this level of detail in a 'Heerestruppen der Unbersicht Armee Gruppe Mitte' document, but only up to the 7th December 1944.

http://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/n ... ect/zoom/9

Cheers
8-)
Also in German archives MOD maybe or other ? possible to find these Gliederung ?

Also i would like upload the nice last maps posted with links but i can' t save in one full piece if one can say me how i can ?

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 4723
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 23 Jun 2018 08:36

From the article discussed here previously: strength of German Army Groups on the Eastern Front by the end of 1944 (the post says that the table stands for early 1944 but that's a mistake):
Image
HG Sud and A should be switched over actually. I guess about 43 000 SS soldiers in the Army Group Center mostly belonged to the 4 SS Panzerkorps which was transferred to Hungary in the last days of 1944.
For comparison, according to Ziemke the strength of the Army Group Center on 1 October 44 was about 700 000 soldiers (not quite clear what was included here exactly). It seems natural that it increased somewhat after 3 months of relative lull.
Curiously enough, Soviet official sources (e.g. 12-volume history of WW2) estimated the strength of Army Group Center in Prussia in January 1945 as 580 000 regular soldiers and 200 000 men in Volkssturm. A rare case when they underestimated German strength instead of inflating it.

Return to “WW2 in Eastern Europe”