Any captured Finnish in Vyborg Operation 1944

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Kelvin
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Any captured Finnish in Vyborg Operation 1944

Post by Kelvin » 09 Jun 2019 13:25

I see book saying Finnish army suffered 32,000 casualties, I would like to ask if any Finnish POW were taken by Soviet ? Thank

Art
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Re: Any captured Finnish in Vyborg Operation 1944

Post by Art » 10 Jun 2019 08:10

Yep, several hundred. And where does the question come from?

Kelvin
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Re: Any captured Finnish in Vyborg Operation 1944

Post by Kelvin » 10 Jun 2019 13:30

Hi, Art, Finnish casaulties is from David Glantz book battle for Leningrad. It seemed this Operation make Finnish sue for Peace. I just want to have more casualties breakdown as Sovietalways had figures on casualties breakdown like on Bagration, Jassy-Kishinev.
Just several hundred ? Finnish soldiers was better than German in 1944. 158,000 German captured in Bagration, 98,000 captured in Kishinev Operation.

Art
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Re: Any captured Finnish in Vyborg Operation 1944

Post by Art » 10 Jun 2019 14:03

About 2000 Finnish soldiers were taken prisoners in 1944, the bulk of them during the summer months. You should remember about an absence of any large pockets or encirclement on this front.

Mikko H.
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Re: Any captured Finnish in Vyborg Operation 1944

Post by Mikko H. » 11 Jun 2019 16:21

Finnish dead by month in June-July 1944. Majority of these losses were incurred in battles in the Karelian Isthmus, but a significant proportion also in Olonets Isthmus.

June
Killed, body buried: 3052
Wounded, died of wounds: 1181
Killed, body left on field or destroyed: 2083
Missing, declared dead: 1816
Proven to have died in captivity: 20
Cause of death other than directly war-related (diseases, accidents, suicides): 313
Unknown causes: 77
Total: 8542

July
Killed, body buried: 3430
Wounded, died of wounds: 1442
Killed, body left on field or destroyed: 889
Missing, declared dead: 1015
Proven to have died in captivity: 13
Cause of death other than directly war-related (diseases, accidents, suicides): 311
Unknown causes: 43
Total: 7143

Stiltzkin
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Re: Any captured Finnish in Vyborg Operation 1944

Post by Stiltzkin » 13 Jun 2019 00:15

Finnish soldiers was better than German in 1944
All possible Soviet casualties sustained (in major operations) against Finnish forces in 1944: 249,997. Overall in the operational vicinity of the Finnish armed forces: 691,972. Soldiers committed to major operations (cummulated, initial): 869,100.
All possible Soviet casualties sustained (in major operations, ongoing operations from 43 excluded) against German forces in 1944: 1,750,708. Potentially exposed to the German armed forces: 6,053,169. Soldiers committed against the Wehrmacht in major operations in 1944: 7,624,300.
I did not clean them for overlapping, as German soldiers served in the Finnish districts, the Lapland incidents are also ignored.
This is just a rough (and very generous) estimate, but mean SEV for 1944 (adjusted for posture and mission accomplishment) in combat, Ger: 3.5 , Fin: 2.01, overall for 1944 (including captured): 2.11, 1.94, but to be fair, I do not have exact Finnish strengths and casualty figures for 1944 to make a better estimate.

Art
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Re: Any captured Finnish in Vyborg Operation 1944

Post by Art » 13 Jun 2019 11:09

Stiltzkin wrote:
13 Jun 2019 00:15
All possible Soviet casualties sustained (in major operations) against Finnish forces in 1944: 249,997.
I don't think so.

mars
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Re: Any captured Finnish in Vyborg Operation 1944

Post by mars » 13 Jun 2019 14:45

Art wrote:
13 Jun 2019 11:09
Stiltzkin wrote:
13 Jun 2019 00:15
All possible Soviet casualties sustained (in major operations) against Finnish forces in 1944: 249,997.
I don't think so.
could you provide a breakdown of the Soviet causalities at Finnish front in 1944 ?

Stiltzkin
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Re: Any captured Finnish in Vyborg Operation 1944

Post by Stiltzkin » 13 Jun 2019 14:48

I don't think so.
Do you have accurate figures on Soviet losses against Finnish units? I am quite curious here. This is just a rough boundary for the main operations and any Soviet unit that may have had contact with a Finnish formation (so Karelian and Leningrad fronts but not all armies are included). I just wanted to give a perspective here. The fronts had different intensity, commitment and mission factors.

Art
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Re: Any captured Finnish in Vyborg Operation 1944

Post by Art » 14 Jun 2019 08:27

Combat casualties of the 7 and 32 Armies/Karelian Front (map1, map2) - killed in action, wounded, missing, captured:
Jan44 - 407
Feb44 - 495
Mar44 - 783
Apr44 - 479
May44 - 599
Jun44 - 13765
Jul44 - 38086
Aug44 - 9765
Sept44 - 293
Total about 65 000 men. There were also casualties which are difficult to divide between Finnish and German sectors (air force, NKVD troops, elements under Front HQ) but they were not very large and add up to several hundred men probably

Art
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Re: Any captured Finnish in Vyborg Operation 1944

Post by Art » 14 Jun 2019 08:55

Combat casualties of the Leningrad Front in the Karelian Isthmus:
Jan44 (23 Army) - 379
Feb44 (23 Army) - 297
Mar44 (23 Army) - 409
Apr44 (23 Army) - 321
May44 (21&23 Army) - 1304
Jun44 (21&23Army) - 70443
Jul44 (21,23, 59 Armies) - 31657
Aug44 (21,23, 59 Armies) - 2809
1-20 Sept44 (21,23, 59 Armies) - 428
Total about 108 000 men. Also elements under Front HQ add some 8000 casualties in June-July, and some other corrections I counted several years ago but don't have with me right now. The fact that units were regularly shifted from one command to another makes precise counting a little problematic. And also casualties of air and naval force, which were not very large proportionally.

Stiltzkin
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Re: Any captured Finnish in Vyborg Operation 1944

Post by Stiltzkin » 14 Jun 2019 10:39

Total about 108 000 men. Also elements under Front HQ add some 8000 casualties in June-July, and some other corrections I counted several years ago but don't have with me right now. The fact that units were regularly shifted from one command to another makes precise counting a little problematic. And also casualties of air and naval force, which were very large proportionally.
They are actually lower? ...

Art
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Re: Any captured Finnish in Vyborg Operation 1944

Post by Art » 14 Jun 2019 14:59

109 Rifle Corps was assigned to the 2 Shock Army by the end of July, hence casualties incurred in the first half of July were included in the numbers for the 2 SA. I don't remember the exact figure - probably about 1000 or 2000 men. Also smaller but similar corrections.

Art
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Re: Any captured Finnish in Vyborg Operation 1944

Post by Art » 14 Jun 2019 16:57

Also from an earlier discussion:
viewtopic.php?p=1502064#p1502064
Count by names from an incomplete data set gives 22143 Soviet killed and missing in the Karelian Isthums in June-July 44. According to my estimate based on Leningrad Front's records there were at least 25000.

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Any captured Finnish in Vyborg Operation 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 14 Jun 2019 19:30

Art wrote:
10 Jun 2019 14:03
About 2000 Finnish soldiers were taken prisoners in 1944, the bulk of them during the summer months.
Finnish historian Timo Malmi has studied the case, and he has reached the number as "over 2300".
You should remember about an absence of any large pockets or encirclement on this front.
Yes. The troop withdrawal was done in a quite orderly way.

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