11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

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Kelvin
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11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 19 Jun 2019 13:25

In accordance with Manstein memoir, he said his 11. Armee resembled Army of Italy of Napoleon in 1796 and almost captured the whole of Crimea during Oct-Nov 1941 with the exception of Sevastopol. And also claimed he captured over 200,000 POW. I cannot find Details About that Operation in Oct/Nov 41 and his book failed to give Details About that. If he can take that numbers of POW, must be very fierce Fighting, anyone have some data on that period or any key battles in Crimea in that period, thank

Max Payload
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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Max Payload » 20 Jun 2019 12:56

This period is covered in some detail in Robert Forczyk’s book – Where the Iron Crosses Grow.

By 18 October LIV Corps had pushed Kuznetsov’s 51 Army back some 15km down the Perokop Isthmus and Manstein was ready to launch an offensive to break into the peninsula. Manstein had six German divisions in LIV Corps and XXX Corps. LIV Corps, well supported by artillery and with effective air support led the attack and by 19 October its three divisions were breaking through the Soviet defences.
Unsuccessful Soviet counter-attacks continued for six days but on 26 October, against renewed German attacks, the Soviet positions began to crumble. Forczyk put German casualties at this point at 7,286 including 1,514 dead or missing. Soviet losses in prisoners alone were 16,000.
On 22 October Kuznetsov was relieved of command of 51 Army and replaced initially by Admiral Levchenko who had never previously commanded ground combat troops, and then by his former deputy Lt-Gen Batov. Around twenty thousand Soviet troops retreated to the defences of Sevastopol, but most Soviet forces retreated east in considerable disorder to the Kerch peninsula. On 4 November Batov attempted to make a stand along the narrow neck of the Kerch peninsula but after three days Eleventh Army, by then reinforced with an additional infantry division, an additional corps headquarters and some Romanian mobile formations had broken through to push 51 Army back to the Kerch Strait and evacuation to the Taman peninsula. The evacuation was complete by 17 November.
Forczyk does not give loss figures but quotes Soviet claims that 50,000 personnel were evacuated across the strait. (Soviet forces in Crimea had included 11 rifle divisions, four cavalry divisions and, as reinforcement in November, a mountain division. So Manstein's claim of over 200,000 prisoners seems excessive, particularly since there were other evacuations from places such as Feodosia and Yalta.)

Kelvin
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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 21 Jun 2019 02:47

Max Payload wrote:
20 Jun 2019 12:56
This period is covered in some detail in Robert Forczyk’s book – Where the Iron Crosses Grow.

By 18 October LIV Corps had pushed Kuznetsov’s 51 Army back some 15km down the Perokop Isthmus and Manstein was ready to launch an offensive to break into the peninsula. Manstein had six German divisions in LIV Corps and XXX Corps. LIV Corps, well supported by artillery and with effective air support led the attack and by 19 October its three divisions were breaking through the Soviet defences.
Unsuccessful Soviet counter-attacks continued for six days but on 26 October, against renewed German attacks, the Soviet positions began to crumble. Forczyk put German casualties at this point at 7,286 including 1,514 dead or missing. Soviet losses in prisoners alone were 16,000.
On 22 October Kuznetsov was relieved of command of 51 Army and replaced initially by Admiral Levchenko who had never previously commanded ground combat troops, and then by his former deputy Lt-Gen Batov. Around twenty thousand Soviet troops retreated to the defences of Sevastopol, but most Soviet forces retreated east in considerable disorder to the Kerch peninsula. On 4 November Batov attempted to make a stand along the narrow neck of the Kerch peninsula but after three days Eleventh Army, by then reinforced with an additional infantry division, an additional corps headquarters and some Romanian mobile formations had broken through to push 51 Army back to the Kerch Strait and evacuation to the Taman peninsula. The evacuation was complete by 17 November.
Forczyk does not give loss figures but quotes Soviet claims that 50,000 personnel were evacuated across the strait. (Soviet forces in Crimea had included 11 rifle divisions, four cavalry divisions and, as reinforcement in November, a mountain division. So Manstein's claim of over 200,000 prisoners seems excessive, particularly since there were other evacuations from places such as Feodosia and Yalta.)
Hi, Max, thank for your data, your description of Combat Action during late October was the result of fall of Simferopol on 01st Nov 1941 ?

And did German also take Yalta and Fesodosia later ? Thank

Max Payload
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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Max Payload » 21 Jun 2019 06:59

Simferopol was taken late on 31 October by 72 Infantry Division of XXX Corps. The same division went on to take Yalta on the morning of 8 November. Feodosia was taken late on 3 November by 170 Infantry Division of XLII Corps.

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 21 Jun 2019 07:51

Hi, Max, Thank so much for your details, I would like to ask if any individual Soviet casualties in battles of Feodosia, Yalta and Simferopol, either killed or captured are OK, thank

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Max Payload » 21 Jun 2019 10:33

I don’t have anything on figures. I don’t think there was much fighting for Simferopol itself. The 3 Naval Infantry Brigade fought 72 Infantry Div north of the town on the 31st, but then retreated south. When 72 Infantry Div reached Yalta it seems to have been involved in heavy but relatively brief fighting for the town. I don’t know about Feodosia, but Forczyk describes the Crimean towns at this time as falling like nine pins.

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 23 Jun 2019 09:56

Max Payload wrote:
21 Jun 2019 10:33
I don’t have anything on figures. I don’t think there was much fighting for Simferopol itself. The 3 Naval Infantry Brigade fought 72 Infantry Div north of the town on the 31st, but then retreated south. When 72 Infantry Div reached Yalta it seems to have been involved in heavy but relatively brief fighting for the town. I don’t know about Feodosia, but Forczyk describes the Crimean towns at this time as falling like nine pins.
Hello, Max, thank for your Information, very helpful. By the way, did you know any fierce Fighting in Kherson in Ukrainian Littoral in Aug 1941 ? Thank

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Max Payload » 25 Jun 2019 00:55

My understanding is that there was very little fighting for Kherson. Southern Front didn’t handle the retreat to the Dnepr very effectively and such was the rate of advance of Eleventh Army in mid-August that Kherson appears to have been taken with little effort on the 19th.

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 25 Jun 2019 04:32

Hi, Max, thank for your reply, why I ask that because in accordance with Liddell Hart book strategy of indirect approach mentions Kleist panzer group thrust southward and trapped Soviet between two important ports Nikolayev and Kherson but he also says large part of Soviet troop escaped from trap. Forzcyz book also mentions most of troop escaped but Anders books German defeat in Russia mentions German succeeded in closing the trap. German mentions capturing 60,000 POW but I suspect it contains the whole area combat activity in Nikolayev, and also Kherson area.

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Jeff Leach » 25 Jun 2019 09:13

Max Payload wrote:
25 Jun 2019 00:55
My understanding is that there was very little fighting for Kherson. Southern Front didn’t handle the retreat to the Dnepr very effectively and such was the rate of advance of Eleventh Army in mid-August that Kherson appears to have been taken with little effort on the 19th.
Kelvin wrote:
25 Jun 2019 04:32
Hi, Max, thank for your reply, why I ask that because in accordance with Liddell Hart book strategy of indirect approach mentions Kleist panzer group thrust southward and trapped Soviet between two important ports Nikolayev and Kherson but he also says large part of Soviet troop escaped from trap. Forzcyz book also mentions most of troop escaped but Anders books German defeat in Russia mentions German succeeded in closing the trap. German mentions capturing 60,000 POW but I suspect it contains the whole area combat activity in Nikolayev, and also Kherson area.

Not sure if South Front's problems should be blamed on them. The Soviet 9th and 18th Armies were conducting an orderly withdraw when the three armies on their north flank disappeared in the Uman Pocket. The withdraw of the 9th and especially the 18th Army became more and more of a rout, as they raced to cross the Lower Bug River as German motorized forces raced south along the east side of the river. The Soviet forces had to abandon large amounts of equipment on the west side of the Lower Bug.


If Kherson was taken on the 19th August it must have been by reconnaissance forces of the 1st Panzer Group because the 11th Army only started crossing the Lower Bug River on the 18th August. The drive to the Lower Bug hadn't been kind to the 11th Army and the army stopped upon reaching the river and spent a few days resting and reorganizing. The German infantry complained bitterly about the absence of the Luftwaffe and the heavy harassment they suffered by the VVS during the final stages of the push towards the river.


I haven't looked at the primary source material covering the withdraw from the Lower Bug to the Dnepr River but the 9th and 18th Armies withdrew behind the Dnepr relatively intact. When it comes to losses, I have seen strength reports for the 9th Army and they are surprisingly light. There is a big problem with the reports because they don't take into account the number of replacements the army had received. There is a Soviet report that states that the 30th Mountain Rifle Division was to receive 2000 replacement in mid-July. The matter is further complicated because the 9th Army had lost half of its forces (the 2nd Mechanized Corps was at Uman and the 14th Rifle Corps was surrounded at Odessa) before crossing the river. If you are going to quote losses you need to be careful to explain your method of counting.


The German claim of 60,000 POWs is probably on the high-side but Soviet forces did suffer heavily Nikolayev.

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 25 Jun 2019 10:54

Hello, Jeff, thank for your Reply. I think 60000 figure perhaps are found in many Locations. e.g. so call battle of Gomel, German made a lump sum of 78,000 POW but it actually two battles one at Gomel and another at Krichev plus some mop up Action by rear Units.
apart from Kiev and Vizama or Minsk, 60000 POW in one battle is remarkable. Maruipol-Melitopol pocket contains 65000 POW are Always mentioned in history books but Nikolayev battle is less mentioned apart from books I quoted,

I suppose Maybe two or three battles combined as Nikolayev battle.

Also, Generally the battle of Azov, German claimed they took 107,000 POW. So main battle around Maruipol-Melitopol which took 65000 POW was only one of and most important encirclement in so called battle of the Azov. Would be additonal one or two battles in this area to Combine to call battle of Azov. Just my two cents

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Max Payload » 25 Jun 2019 23:54

Jeff Leach wrote:
25 Jun 2019 09:13
If Kherson was taken on the 19th August it must have been by reconnaissance forces of the 1st Panzer Group because the 11th Army only started crossing the Lower Bug River on the 18th August.
From the lower Bug to Kherson is 50km.
An eyewitness A. Gusakov wrote after the war: “On ordersfromthe CityCommitteeofthe Communist Partyandthesecretaryof industry, le. Haiovy, I and a group of fighters were assigned the task of disassembling the remaining equipment [ofthePetrovskyPlant] and destroying it. There wasnot much of it. In one section oftheplant wefound a numberof fully builtelectrical engines ready forshipment.
We did the job alright. Asfortheremaininghandgrenades, we loadedthem onto a platform and dumpedthem intothe Dnieper toprevent themfrom fallinginto enemyhands. On19August, at 3-4pm, we again crossedthe river into Tsiurupynsk [Oleshky] and a few hours later we learned that the Germans had occupied Kherson.”
(DAKhO,fondr-3562,list2,file47,fol.4).

Some sources cite 20 August.

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 27 Jun 2019 05:52

Hi, Max, thank for your infomation, I would like to ask if any fierce fighting in city of Stalino ? I don't know if any relation with Stalin, If it had, heavy fighting should be occured there. Thank

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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Max Payload » 27 Jun 2019 10:06

As with Kherson a couple of months earlier, Stalino seems to have been taken with little fighting. Southern Front’s defences had been shattered with the surrender of the surrounded forces of 9 Army and 18 Army northwest of Osepenko on 10 October. Stalino was taken by forces of First Panzer Group (XLIX Mtn Corps and the Italian Expeditionary Corps) on 20/21 October.
See
https://feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 15#p219915
(posted by tigre)

Kelvin
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Re: 11. Armee operatoin in Crimea in late 1941

Post by Kelvin » 01 Jul 2019 13:42

Max Payload wrote:
27 Jun 2019 10:06
As with Kherson a couple of months earlier, Stalino seems to have been taken with little fighting. Southern Front’s defences had been shattered with the surrender of the surrounded forces of 9 Army and 18 Army northwest of Osepenko on 10 October. Stalino was taken by forces of First Panzer Group (XLIX Mtn Corps and the Italian Expeditionary Corps) on 20/21 October.
See
https://feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 15#p219915
(posted by tigre)
Hi, Max, thank for your help. I would like to ask if Fighting for another important cities with rich natural resouces : Nikopol with Manganese ore and Krivig Rog with Iron ore is included in battle of Dnepropetrovsk in August 1941 ? Thank

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