Casualties at Sebastopol

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Imad
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Casualties at Sebastopol

Post by Imad » 11 Feb 2020 22:51

Hello

Gerhard Weinberg in his one volume opus mentions the Germans suffered 150,000 casualties at Sebastopol during Manstein’s investment of the city in 1941. He bases these figures on Ziemke and Erickson - I checked the footnotes.

These figures seem excessively high and suspiciously close to the Soviet claim of 150,000 casualties inflicted. The Germans’ admitting to only 24,000 seems rather low

Does anyone have more realistic figures?

Thanks in advance.

Art
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Re: Casualties at Sebastopol

Post by Art » 12 Feb 2020 09:01

Imad wrote:
11 Feb 2020 22:51
Gerhard Weinberg in his one volume opus mentions the Germans suffered 150,000 casualties at Sebastopol during Manstein’s investment of the city in 1941.
1942 may be?

Max Payload
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Re: Casualties at Sebastopol

Post by Max Payload » 12 Feb 2020 15:07

Imad wrote:
11 Feb 2020 22:51
Gerhard Weinberg in his one volume opus mentions the Germans suffered 150,000 casualties at Sebastopol during Manstein’s investment of the city in 1941. He bases these figures on Ziemke and Erickson - I checked the footnotes.

These figures seem excessively high and suspiciously close to the Soviet claim of 150,000 casualties inflicted. The Germans’ admitting to only 24,000 seems rather low

Does anyone have more realistic figures?
Forczyk in Where the Iron Crosses Grow (last para Ch6) states that from the attack at Perekop to the fall of Sevastopol AOK 11 suffered more than 96,000 casualties including 21,600 dead. Additionally the Romanian Army's casualties were 19,000. In the final 33 days of the fighting from 2 June Forczyk earlier cites for AOK 11, "a total of 35,866 German casualties, including 5,786 dead or missing, or about 18% of its starting strength". (Sources not given)

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Imad
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Re: Casualties at Sebastopol

Post by Imad » 13 Feb 2020 21:26

Art wrote:
12 Feb 2020 09:01
Imad wrote:
11 Feb 2020 22:51
Gerhard Weinberg in his one volume opus mentions the Germans suffered 150,000 casualties at Sebastopol during Manstein’s investment of the city in 1941.
1942 may be?

My error. '41 and '42

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Bob Forczyk
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Re: Casualties at Sebastopol

Post by Bob Forczyk » 02 Apr 2020 16:44

The 11. Armee had very detailed casualty reports in the archives, which I used to develop these figures. Weinberg didn't base his number on German sources. Erickson used Soviet numbers, which were grossly inflated.

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Imad
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Re: Casualties at Sebastopol

Post by Imad » 09 Apr 2020 19:53

Bob Forczyk wrote:
02 Apr 2020 16:44
The 11. Armee had very detailed casualty reports in the archives, which I used to develop these figures. Weinberg didn't base his number on German sources. Erickson used Soviet numbers, which were grossly inflated.
Weinberg thinks the German figures are improbably low.

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Bob Forczyk
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Re: Casualties at Sebastopol

Post by Bob Forczyk » 10 Apr 2020 18:49

I used original documents from 11. Armee. My experience has been that during the period when the Germans were winning the war, their casualty numbers were pretty accurate. When there were discrepancies, it was usually due to late reporting - which is a common event in all armies. Later in the war, German figures get less accurate, such as during Bagration, because entire units were disappearing. The German army often did not correct MIA numbers in 1944-45, so it's tough to know if these losses were later judged dead, captured or unaccounted for (incl. desertions).

My observation has been that Weinberg substitutes opinion for fact, on some occasions. The German losses are Sevastopol were heavy enough to cripple several of these divisions for the rest of summer 1942.

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Hikari
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Re: Casualties at Sebastopol

Post by Hikari » 09 May 2020 02:57

It’s impossible to suffer that much casualties, in that case half the army may destroyed,

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Casualties at Sebastopol

Post by Sid Guttridge » 09 May 2020 12:03

Romanian losses are given as 2,070 dead, 4,518 wounded and 399 missing over 18 October 1941 to 31 January 1942, most of which were suffered in the Crimea or its approaches. (6,987).

Over 1 February to 7 May 1942 Romania lost 2,371 dead, 10,798 wounded and 717 missing at Kerch and Sebastopol. (13,886).

The Romanian Mountain Corps lost another 8,454 men in the final assault on Sebastopol, to which it committed two mountain brigades and an infantry division.

This is a total of 29,327 casualties.

3rd Army began the 1941 campaign with three mountain brigades and three cavalry brigades totalling 74,700 men. It lost 2,355 dead, 5,924 wounded and 1,913 missing by 1 November, before entering the Crimea. (10,192). The Mountain Corps was then down to 63% strength and the Cavalry Corps to 68%. It therefore probably entered the Crimea with at most 65,000 men, and perhaps as few as 50,000

3rd Army received two more infantry divisions during the Crimean campaign, which would have added about 30,000 more men. So the Romanians probably committed about 100,000 men to the Crimea in 1941-42, about 30% of whom were lost.

The Romanians committed two mountain brigades and an infantry division to the final assault on Sebastopol - a total of around 35,000 men, if near full strength. Of these, 8,454 became casualties. This is about 23%.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Hikari
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Re: Casualties at Sebastopol

Post by Hikari » 07 Jun 2020 21:40

Bob Forczyk wrote:
02 Apr 2020 16:44
The 11. Armee had very detailed casualty reports in the archives, which I used to develop these figures. Weinberg didn't base his number on German sources. Erickson used Soviet numbers, which were grossly inflated.
Do you have the original strength figures of the 11th Army (before battle of kerch)? I have seen the number of vacancies in the 11th Army.


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Hikari
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Re: Casualties at Sebastopol

Post by Hikari » 09 Jun 2020 07:01

Thank you, but I have few questions about this figure.
First of all, may I ask its source?
and, at may 11, AOK11 have five corps, including eight infantry divisions(22 24 132 170 50 28le 46 72) and one panzer division(22), and Gr. Schroeder Gr. Ritter and brigade Groddeck and 1/3 73ID (Sounds like a regiment)
So I doubt that AOK11 will really have more than 230 000 man in service, especially after the winter campign, these troops have not been fully replenished.

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Yuri
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Re: Casualties at Sebastopol

Post by Yuri » 09 Jun 2020 22:57

Hikari wrote:
09 May 2020 02:57
It’s impossible to suffer that much casualties, in that case half the army may destroyed,
This is an incorrect judgment. See here page 6 and 7 of Report of II./Inf.Reg.18
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=247378&start=105

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Yuri
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Re: Casualties at Sebastopol

Post by Yuri » 09 Jun 2020 23:01

FligFuhrerSud_FlakRgt18_27_16-06-42.jpg
FligFuhrerSud_FlakRgt18_27_16-06-42(2).jpg
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Yuri
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Re: Casualties at Sebastopol

Post by Yuri » 09 Jun 2020 23:02

FlakKorp1_Gliederung_26-06-42.jpg
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