Soviet vs. Polska. Sep.1939.

[Rian]

Supplementing data on the losses of Soviet troops in Grodno (KIA, MIA without a trace, WIA):

27th Tank Brigade - 20 KIA, 18 MIA, 26 WIA (64)
20th Motorized Brigade - 7 KIA, 22 WIA (29)
Mechanized Group of 6th Cavalry Corps - 25 KIA, 110 WIA (135)
Mechanized Group of 16th Rifle Corps:
- 59th independent reconnaissance battalion from 2nd Rifle Div. - 6 KIA, 5 WIA (11)
- 69 reconnaisance battalion from 100th Rifle Div. - according list of killed soviet soldiers in 1939 - 2 KIA at 21 IX
5th Rifle Corps:
119th Rifle Regiment from 13th Rifle Div. - according list of killed soviet soldiers in 1939 - regiment lost in september 1939 30 KIA (all in Grodno?), ??WIA
14th Recon battalion from 13th Rifle Div. - according list of killed soviet soldiers in 1939 - 1 KIA in Grodno
42nd Artillery Regiment from 13th Rifle Div. - according list of killed soviet soldiers in 1939 - 1 KIA in Grodno
101st Rifle Regiment from 4th Rifle Div. - according regiment report - minimum 2 WIA at 21 IX, and 7 WIA at 22 IX


So... If all soldiers from 119 Rifle regiment were killed in Grodno - Soviet losses in Grodno was 92+ KIA, 18 MIA, minimum 172+ WIA = 282+ casualties

- changed number of wounded from 101 Rifle Regiment

[Rian]

119th Rifle Regiment - according official data lost 84 WIA (incl. 10 officers) in Grodno (incl. commander of 2/119 battalion). According official list - 27 soldiers from this regiment was killed in Grodno, but rusian page patriot center forum give names of more than 30 KIA from this regiment.

[Rian]

"Grif siekrietnosti snjat" (author Krivosheev) gave number of soviet casualties in Poland in 1939 until 30 sept. But... The losses given by him are higher than those resulting from the original Soviet documents. For example. According Krivosheev Ukrainian Front until 30 sept lost 972 KIA and 1360 WIA.

But the original document of the Ukrainian Front showing the losses of the Front until October 2 gives the following losses: 491 (incl. 48 officers) KIA, 141 (4) MIA 1360 (133) WIA. Next document (from 8th Oct) give SMALLER number (some more killed, but much more smaller number missing).

So, from what documents did Krivosheev take his data??

[Art]

Different edition provide different numbers actually. 972 from the edition of 2001 includes:
570 killed in ation
58 deaths of wounds
42 non-battle casualties
289 missing
13 deaths of diseases.

[Rian]

Yes - I know these number also. But... I also know original Ukrainian Front document from 2nd Oct. In this document losses of the Ukrainian Front are: 491 (incl. 48 officers) KIA, 141 (4) MIA and1360 (133) WIA.

And I know - was some casualties on the territory of Ukrainian Front in October. There were Battle of Wytyczno on 1st October (I think casualties from this battle was't in casualty table from October 2 - probably full report can't come to the Front Staff until 2nd Oct.) but also were some smaller fights and accidents - for example 15 Oct crashed two SB bombers from 48th fast bomber regiment. Both crews were killed - 8 soldiers together, 17 Oct was killed two soldiers from 61th regt - they found artillery shell etc. But - it was only some casualties. Not hundreds.

So - could be casualty table from 2nd (and next from 8th) October falsed?? If not... I don't know what documents did Krivosheev use.

[Art]

"Grif siekrietnosti snjat" (author Krivosheev) gave number of soviet casualties in Poland in 1939 until 30 sept.

Up to 25 September 1939 actually (original edition of 1993). The edition of 2001 (which you might call a different book) provides losses up to 30 September indeed.

So, from what documents did Krivosheev take his data??

There are references in both books:
1993:

References2.png

2001:

References.png

So it is a compilation from several different documents, and these documents are different in the two editions. Of those references I can check RGVA (aka TsGASA), f.35084, op.1, d.22, ll.22,23 leads to a report on casualties of the Cavalry Group/Ukrainian Front by 10 October, f.35084, op.1, d.25, l.45,46 to a report on casualties of the 6 Army/Ukrainian Front by 6 October.

I also know original Ukrainian Front document from 2nd Oct. In this document losses of the Ukrainian Front are: 491 (incl. 48 officers) KIA, 141 (4) MIA and1360 (133) WIA.

What is the document exactly? Actually these are virtually the same figures as quoted in "Grif sekretnosti snyat" (1993).

[Rian]

So it is a compilation from several different documents, and these documents are different in the two editions

Hmmm... My information are from from the tables under title:

"Сведения о потерях Украинского фронта за период военных c 17 cиентьябра по 29 cиентьябра" (at night 28/29 September was battle of Szack - 52 Division agains polish border Corps with many casualties)
"Сведения о потерях Украинского фронта за период 17 cиентьябра по 2 октября" (1st September was Battle of Wytyczno - 45 Division against polish Border Corps - next tens of casualties)
And reports about casualties from Armies 5, 6, 12, 13 Korps, Mechanized Group. Scans of all documents - in polish Military Archive.
But how were the losses in these units calculated? there were a lot of changes in the composition of these units.

And - as I show - were some casualties in small fights and accidents (incl planes) in October.

[Art]

But how were the losses in these units calculated? there were a lot of changes in the composition of these units.

Reporting procedure in wartime (type and timing of reports) was established by the RKKA General Staff on 24 June 1941. What was the procedure before that date and how it was regulated - I don't now right now. From a common sense each command submitted a report on casualties for a given period to the HQ to which it was subordinated at the end of this period.

[Rian]

But 24th June 1941 is not September 1939. I know some of reports from September 1939 eastern Poland with different number of losses.

For example: battle in Vilnius 18-19 Sept. 1939. According to 3rd Cavalary Corps both divisions of the Corps lost in this battle 13 (3) KIA and 24 (5) WIA:
- 7th Cav Div - 8 (3) KIA and 18 (5) WIA
- 36th Cav Div - 5 KIA and 4 (1) WIA + tanks destroyed and 10 horses killed

but... According to 36th Cav Div - Division in Vilnius lost only 2 KIA and (1) WIA from 2nd tank regiment (so any horses killed - only destroyed tanks). So - Corps or Division data?? In 3rd Cav Corps report are only numbers of killed and wounded. In 36th Cav Division report are names of all killed and wounded of this division from full campaign.

but... It is next one report - from 42nd Cav Rgt. of the 36th Cav Div - In this report we can read, that regiment lost in Vilnius 1 WIA when attacked railway station. So - not only 2nd Tank Rgt. had losses in Vilnius...

[Art]

But 24th June 1941 is not September 1939.

Sure, so I say that I don't know what regulated the way reporting was made in 1939. Some sources indicate a lack of specific regulations:
"It is needed to establish in peacetime standard forms of reports on battle strength, casualties, prisoners and wars and trophies. All those forms should be stored with the plans of mobilization" (Staff of the 4 Army in October 1939).
That implies that such standard forms of reports were absent in September 1939.

[Rian]

But still don't knows wchich after campaign report is OK - 3rd Cav Corps report, or 36th Cav Div report.

I don't believe, that commander of 36th Cav Div don't know nothing about commander of his own 42nd Cav Rgt report. If He know his report - why division commander wrote, that losses in Vilnius were only in tank regiment??

[Rian]

Next one - 6th Army of Ukrainian Front:

Summary of 29 IX: 103 (13) KIA, 575 (47) WIA

2 X: 108 (14) KIA, 457 (56) WIA - ok - some more killed, but much (more than hudred) smaller number of wounded (why??)

8 X: 99 (14) KIA, 408 (43) WIA - this is difficult for understanding for me - smaller number killed and wounded

I don't know what thinking about these data.