The AOK.4 during the Suvorov operation

[DanTGN]

Hi to All,

I am conducting research on the operations of the Heeresgruppe Mitte during the Suvorov operation in August 1943, I am looking for data on the AOK.4 Order of Battle, I am trying to immerse myself in the sources that I have available, such as the NARA archives or the scarce existing bibliography of this interesting Soviet operation that culminated in the liberation of Smolesnk and the German withdrawal behind the Dnepr
I know the composition of the AOK.4, I look for an OoB in depth like the units that made up their Korpstruppen or Heeresgruppen of the AOK.4

I am also looking for data on the Koruck.559 units, more than their composition what I am looking for is information on the disposition of their battalions behind the lines of the AOK.4 and PzAOK.3

I am also looking for information about the 18.Flak.Division, more specifically the disposition of its units in the rear of the two German armies involved in the Suvorov operation.

All this is part of a larger study that I am carrying out on the operations in the summer of 1943, Rumyantsev and Kutuzov I have studied them in depth but I am still compiling information on Suvorov and the operations in the Donbas or the Kuban

thanks in advance for your help

[2KILFA]

Plenty of useful info about the A.O.K. 4 can be found in the Smolensk 1943: The Red Army's Relentless Advance Osprey book by Forczyk.

[DanTGN]

Hi,

I do have this book by Osprey as a secondary source and also the one by Istormin V.P and his Offensive Operation of smolesnk 1943 which Forczyk is based on for his book, but I was looking for something deeper, I have been looking in the NARA archives but I have not found it. been able to find references to Koruck.559 or the 18.Flak Division

I will keep looking and if someone knows more information, it would make my job easier

Thank you very much for the reply

Daniel

[DanTGN]

Hi to All,

Part of the requested information, more specifically about the Koruch.559, I have already obtained it through a very kind member of the forum, now all that remains is to fill in the information about the 18.Flak division for the start of the Suvorov operation

I share the info about the Koruch.559 so you can get the type of info I'm looking for

Thanks for your help

[Bob Forczyk]

My book was based upon original research at NARA in AOK 4 records. Istomin was just a Soviet era secondary source I consulted for some viewpoints from their side. As I remember, the AOK 4 records were fairly decent for this period, particularly in regard to OB, casualties, supplies, etc.

[Larry D.]

A few citations for 18. Flakdivision for summer and early fall 1943:


T-312 roll 218 frame 674
--ditto-- roll 1243 frame 452
T-313 roll 282 frame 059
--ditto-- roll 175

TsAMO 500/12476 Akte 40 and 42.

I can't say if there is anything at BA-MA Freiburg, but you might get lucky.

L. deZ.

[DanTGN]

My book was based upon original research at NARA in AOK 4 records. Istomin was just a Soviet era secondary source I consulted for some viewpoints from their side. As I remember, the AOK 4 records were fairly decent for this period, particularly in regard to OB, casualties, supplies, etc.

Thank you very much Bob, I really enjoyed your book, very well written and researched. I will take another look at the AOK.4 NARA archives to see if I can find more useful material for my research.

Don't you happen to keep notes on the OoB of AOK.4 from when you did the research for the book? I mean a deeper OoB than the one you offer in your book

That said, thank you very much for the information

Daniel

[DanTGN]

A few citations for 18. Flakdivision for summer and early fall 1943:


T-312 roll 218 frame 674
--ditto-- roll 1243 frame 452
T-313 roll 282 frame 059
--ditto-- roll 175

TsAMO 500/12476 Akte 40 and 42.

I can't say if there is anything at BA-MA Freiburg, but you might get lucky.

L. deZ.

Hi Larry,

Thank you very much for the information, I will look to see if I can find these particular files, you saved me a lot of time sifting through the sources sir!

I'm getting to work on this

Daniel

[Bob Forczyk]

Hi Dan
The records for AOK 4 were decent, not great. Don't forget the subordinate corps, which often have OB charts, too. I might have the original AOK 4 OB around somewhere, in boxes or on file, but I have no real ability to find research materials from five years ago. Yes, the OB charts mention a lot of minor support units, some security and Flak truppen, that I did not list in the OB in my book for the simple reason of word count. Four pages is usually the max for OBs in an Osprey campaign title, which means focus is on combat units. I would like to show division breakdowns with subordinate regiments, but that is difficult to do in a short work.

The advantage of the Campaign series is that it allows authors to research and write about operations that often get short shrift in major works. Notice any other books in English about Operation Suvorov? Nope. Even David Glantz has barely touched it. The disadvantage of the Campaign series is the tight page limit. Most readers have no clue how difficult it is to get new topics past a publisher's marketing team; usually, if they have not heard about it, they don't want to greenlight it. Even as an established author, I had to fight for years to get topics like Demyansk 1942 and Velikiye Luki 1942-43 approved.

[DanTGN]

Hi Dan
The records for AOK 4 were decent, not great. Don't forget the subordinate corps, which often have OB charts, too. I might have the original AOK 4 OB around somewhere, in boxes or on file, but I have no real ability to find research materials from five years ago. Yes, the OB charts mention a lot of minor support units, some security and Flak truppen, that I did not list in the OB in my book for the simple reason of word count. Four pages is usually the max for OBs in an Osprey campaign title, which means focus is on combat units. I would like to show division breakdowns with subordinate regiments, but that is difficult to do in a short work.

The advantage of the Campaign series is that it allows authors to research and write about operations that often get short shrift in major works. Notice any other books in English about Operation Suvorov? Nope. Even David Glantz has barely touched it. The disadvantage of the Campaign series is the tight page limit. Most readers have no clue how difficult it is to get new topics past a publisher's marketing team; usually, if they have not heard about it, they don't want to greenlight it. Even as an established author, I had to fight for years to get topics like Demyansk 1942 and Velikiye Luki 1942-43 approved.

Hi Bob,

I will follow your advice with the AOK.4 files

I am glad that you won the battle against the Osprey marketing teams, your books about Demyansk and Velikiye Luki, besides being a rarity, seem excellent to me, thank you for giving us these two unknown campaigns

Daniel

[Bob Forczyk]

I am just finishing Kamenets-Podolsky 1944 (Hube's Pocket), which will be published late next year.

I'd like to do Odessa 1941, but anything East Front that does not involve the Wehrmacht is a hard sell.

[DanTGN]

I am just finishing Kamenets-Podolsky 1944 (Hube's Pocket), which will be published late next year.

I'd like to do Odessa 1941, but anything East Front that does not involve the Wehrmacht is a hard sell.

How nice to hear that, a very interesting campaign, it will be good to read it

The Odessa thing also sounds very good but I understand that sometimes you have to maintain a balance with the commercial possibilities of the book

By the way, reading yours about Crimea now and enjoying it

thank you very much for all this

Daniel