Displaced family January 1945 from Gotenhafen? to Denmark

[Heimatschuss]

Hello everyone,

found another tidbit of Gotenhafen lore on the weekend. (Source: Cajus Bekker, Flucht über's Meer, Ullstein Verlag, 1979, p.16)

Um 18 Uhr an diesem 4. April wird der Flotillenchef der 3. U-Jagdflotille, Kapitänleutnant d. R. Dr. Teichmann, in den Bunker "Löwe" auf Hela gerufen. Zu einer Chefbesprechung bei der 9 Sicherungsdivision. Die Würfel sind gefallen. Kapitän von Blanc teilt den versammelten Flotillenchefs ihre Gruppen zu. Teichmann ist für die Einschiffung an der Pier "Emil" zuständig, dem südlichsten Landungssteg in unmittelbarer Nähe von Oxhöft. Die Chefs der 3. Artillierieträger-Flotille, der 31. Minensuch- und der 3. Sicherungsflotille erhalten gleiche Aufgaben an den weiter nördlich gelegenen Landestegen.

Translation:
On April 4th, at 6PM the commander of the 3rd sub hunter flotilla, Lieutenant-Commander (Res.) Dr. Teichmann is called to the "Löwe" bunker on Hela peninsula for a commander's conference of the 9th security division. A decision has finally been made. Commodore von Blanc allocates the groups to their commanders. Teichmann is responsible for the embarkation on jetty "Emil" the southernmost jetty in the immediate vicinity of Oxhöft. The commanders of 3rd artillery carrier flotilla, 31st mine hunter flotilla and 3rd security flotilla receive identical tasks for the jetties further north.

So now we know that there were at least four jetties on the seaside of Oxhöfter Kämpe that were available for embarkation. (It's a bit odd that the southernmost has a code name starting with E, the 5th letter of the alphabet. Perhaps one of the officers commanded two jetties very close to each other.) If we deduct the Hexengrund pier that can be ruled out according to Nora's sister this leaves us with at least two other jetties to be checked. The hunt continues.

Best regards
Torsten

[Heimatschuss]

Hello Jef,

During WWII my father ALFONS SOENENS ( ° in Ingelmunster, Belgium and living in LENDELEDE, Belgium )
was working in 1942-1943 in a work-camp in Nussdorf, Grabau, Gotenhafen.
He was working in a ship-yard.
Is there anybody who can give me more information, documents and pictures about this camp?

During august 2006 I will visit this places with my brothers and sisters.

Thanks for all help.

Jef

a good site to start with would be http://www.gotenhafen.one.pl They have interesting german town maps of Gotenhafen and lots of old postcards. Perhaps your father will recognize some of the buildings there. The buildings that we currently suspect of being Nussdorf camp are to be found in section H8 of the german town plan at the end of the dead end railroad line.

Best regards
Torsten

[Hexengrund]

Hi all, its Nora. So much information! I feel guilty at times that I am sitting here doing nothing whilst you are all working so hard!

Torsten you mention that it is a bit odd that one has a code name starting with E, what does that mean?

Also this would mean that my family would not have left Oxhofter area until after 4 April, interesting. This could very well have been the case, because we arrived in Sonderborg sometime in April and the jouney across the water was very slow, they could only travel during the day because of mines.

With regards to the jetty, "the big ship could not come in so everyone was taken to the big ship by small vessel, (and there was no other transer eg from small vessel to another one), straight on to big ship".

Again many thanks, Nora

[Heimatschuss]

Hello Nora,

normally the military likes to name things systematically. The northernmost jetty would get a code name starting in A, then proceeding southward one starting with B and so on. From the latest source we know there were four jetty commanders so the last name should begin with a D which is apparently not the case.

April 4th and Oxhöft are unlikely guesses in my opinion. Getting to the Oxhöft jetty would have required your family to travel through Oxhöft village and the Oxhöft harbour region in almost any case. There were lots of buildings along the routes to that jetty so this does not fit to the recollections of you sister. Hexengrund pier had to be dropped because there is no memory of the building in the sea and the size of the pier does not fit also. So there are two other jetties left that we don't know by now.

The most probable date for your embarkation on the Hexengrund beaches is still March 28th in my view. April 4th would have required your family to stay on the beaches for almost 10 days. Did the Danes already find your family on some passenger list? The date of arrival in Denmark would give us the chance of a backwards computation.
There might be the possibility that your transfer from one ship to another in midsea had something to do with the (last) evacuation wave on April 4th. If you boarded the first big ship on March 28th and travelled almost a fortnight, the date would be right. Perhaps the first ocean going ship you were on had some quality that made it particularly suitable to return to Hela berth and pick up new passengers. This may have been supplies of food, drinking water or fuel still sufficient for another voyage or the ship was fast enough to take part in one of the fast convoys.

Best regards
Torsten

[history1]

Hello Nora,

(..)
April 4th and Oxhöft are unlikely guesses in my opinion. Getting to the Oxhöft jetty would have required your family to travel through Oxhöft village and the Oxhöft harbour region in almost any case. There were lots of buildings along the routes to that jetty so this does not fit to the recollections of you sister. Hexengrund pier had to be dropped because there is no memory of the building in the sea and the size of the pier does not fit also. So there are two other jetties left that we don't know by now.
(..)
Best regards
Torsten

That´s your opinion Torsten, nothing else.

But now I presumably found the place where Nora with family where going on the deck of the vessel!
Open this link
http://www.mapywig.org/m/wig100k/P29,30_S27_Gdynia.jpg
follow the coast from OKSYWIE north and you will find the quarantine (in polish KWARANTANNA), and nearby you can find on the beach something what I call jetty.

And that somebody came to this place it is not necesssary that they are crossing the city of Oksywie. There are a lot of other roads. The track went, in my opinion, from Gdynia (Gotenhafen) using a train, as I remember, to Chilonja (now Gdynia - Chilonia), then about Pogórze and Obuze to Fw. Nowe Obuze: from there to the quarantine.

Best regards, Roman

[Heimatschuss]

Hello Roman,

I think we start to go in circles. I had already presented the W.I.G. polish military map from 1931 on page 2 of this thread including the hint to the pier of the quarantine station. I've also sent Nora via PM a route on this map to the quarantine station similar to the one you worked out. It all looked very nice.

But in the meantime a few problems have arisen. In 1945 the quarantine station was no longer the only buildung in Hexengrund. The Luftwaffe had built its torpedo center there that comprised a number of buildings on the beach and the off-shore torpedo building. Nora's sister only remembers one big building near (or on) the beach and no building in the sea at all. Nora's family was housed there for several days so it would be really hard not to notice a curiosity like the building in the sea. What is more: In the building there were a number of cars parking. That does not sound like a quarantine station at all.

From the oblique aerial photo that Arek_79 posted you can see too that the old quarantine jetty no longer existed. At least not in its 1931 form. Behind the pier to the torpedo island there are a short jetty and an angular platform in the sea. These are in my opinion the remains of the 1931 quarantine jetty. The general form of these structures fits to the 1931 W.I.G. map.

Best regards
Torsten

[Hexengrund]

Hello to all, its Nora.

Thanks Torsten for clarifying the D thing.

I have written to Kurt, kstdk, he was going to search the Danish records etc, but so far, no news, (he was waiting on information to come through). I will send him another email today.

I have been waiting on some documentation from the Australian Archives which can now be released to family/s etc. A copy of one document (leaving Denmark 14 September 1949) reads:

Evacuation: Russian advance, to Gotenhafen January 1945
Evacuated by Germans ISy (or 15y) ship to Denmark, April 1945

That is the only formal record that I have about arriving in Denmark April 1945 (other than my sister saying so). I have sent out various emails trying to locate somewhere in Sonderborg for ship's records, but so far no result.

We only waited on the beach for about 3 days. When we were on the ship my sister said that it took a long time to get to Denmark, not only because of no night travel, but even during the day there were times when the ship did not move at all.

[history1]

Hello Roman,

I think we start to go in circles.

Sorry I didn´t remember that you already posted this possibility (the thread is quite long with lot of dates and statements).

But in the meantime a few problems have arisen. Nora's family was housed there for several days so it would be really hard not to notice a curiosity like the building in the sea.

The biggest "problem" we has is that Nora was to young that she can give exactly details and that, sadly, her sister had problems to remember exactly. And they are the only source which we have here.
Can we be sure that there was no building in the water? The answer is "no". In these times they had problems to organise some food and other things which are important to survive. Nora also told that there were fightings around this area, that is what polish sites testify.

What is more: In the building there were a number of cars parking. That does not sound like a quarantine station at all.

So far as I know I translated from the polish wiki on page 6 "Zajezdnia kolejki" as "garage for trains". I didn´t know the professional word for this building. Then shorlty after my statement Nora is telling us about a "dead end for cars/trucks". And that they couldn´t go nowhere from there. That is exactly the same what I translated before: Zajezdnia kolejki (pl) = dead end station (eng.) = Kopfbahnhof (dt).

I suggest that Nora´s sister is telling about this and that she only distermed the train/wagon as cars/trucks.
There is nothing to be said against it. And "Car" is so far as I know the amer. - engl. synonym for wagon.

From the oblique aerial photo that Arek_79 posted you can see too that the old quarantine jetty no longer existed. At least not in its 1931 form. Behind the pier to the torpedo island there are a short jetty and an angular platform in the sea. These are in my opinion the remains of the 1931 quarantine jetty. The general form of these structures fits to the 1931 W.I.G. map.
Best regards
Torsten

I compeletly agree with you Torsten, I didn´t say that they went on board of the vessel from the jetty in it´s 1931 version.

Best regards, Roman

[Hexengrund]

Hello Roman, I think it best if I reply to your above post by PM. Nora

[clavo]

Hello,

I like to let you know, just as an information, that I have the following book:

PORT OF GDYNIA 1922 - 1972
written by CZESLAW KLEBAN
WYDAWNICTWO MORSKIE GDANSK 1974
Issued under the auspices and on order from THE PORT OF GDYNIA AUTHORITY

Regards,

Jef

[Hexengrund]

Hello Jef, is this book written in Polish?

Best regards, Nora

[Hexengrund]

Hello, its Nora

Would anyone out there know what is meant by an ISy or 15y ship?

I am not sure which one it relates to because the handwriting is bad. But it comes from a document that was given to us when we were leaving Denmark 1949.

It reads: "evacuated by German ISy (or 15y) ship to Denmark, April 1945"???

Many thanks, Nora

ps I might be able to get someone to draw the Hexengrund Evacuation site and the small vessel with the jetty, (how my sister recalls it) if I can I will post it.

[clavo]

Hello Nora,

Yes, this book is written in English.

Regards,

Jef

[clavo]

Hello,

During our trip to Gdynia in order to visit the place where my father was working in WWII ( 42-43) ( Grabau-Nussdorf),
we like to visit a concentrationcamp.
Who knows someone on this road or nearby Gdynia?

Best regards,

Jef

[henryk]

There is the Stutthof Concentration Camp Museum in Sztutowo, about 50 km east of Gdansk. There is frequent bus service on the highway past the camp, with a bus stop at the Museum. The camp was set up before the start of WWII, to be ready for prisoners at the start of the war.
http://www.stutthof.pl/en/zwiedzanie.htm
http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps ... ofEng.html