Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Art
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Art » 03 Nov 2016 10:17

Personnel casualties of 2 Tank Army, 1-5 May 1944:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=133020924
262 men killed, 812 wounded, 46 missing, 28 sick, total 1148. Of them 521 in 3 Tank corps, 513 in 16 Tank Corps, 114 in 11 Guards Tank Brigade.
Certain battle casualties were suffered in the defensive phase after 5 May. Total count of 2 TA's losses in May 1944 was 313 men killed, 1110 wounded, 45 missing, 228 sick, 15 non-battle, total 1711 men.

Art
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Art » 03 Nov 2016 10:37

Report of armor strength and losses of 2 Tank Army (10 May 1944):
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=136513506
Operational armor on 1 May:

3 Tank Coprs - 27 T-34
8 Guards Tank Regiment - 5 IS-85
375 SP Regiment - 18 ISU-152
Total 50 tanks and SP guns

16 Tank Corps:
32 T-34
2 Mk-IX
6 Guards Tank Corps - 16 IS-122
1140 SP Regiment - 5 SU-85
Total 55

11 Guards Tank Brigade - 16 T-34

Operational on 9 May 44:
3 Tank Corps: 16 T-34, 5 ISU-152
16 Tank Corps - 9 T-34, 8 IS-122, 5 SU-85, 2 Mk-IX
11 GTBr - no tanks operational
Army HQ - 3 T-34, 2 M4A2
Total 50 tanks and SP guns

Losses 1-8 May:
3 Tank Corps: write-offs - 21 T-34, 3/9 in medium/major repair
8 Guards Tank Regiment: 1 in medium repair, 4 - technical losses

16 Tank Corps: 23 T-34 write-offs, 2/6 in medium/major repair
6 Guards Tank Regiment: 10 IS-122 write-offs, 1/5/3 in short-term/medium/major repair

11 GTBr: 9 T-34 write-offs
375 SP Regiment - 11 ISU-152 write-offs, 2/6 in short-term/medium repair
1440 SP Regiment - 3 SU-85 in medium repair.

That indicates a loss of 74 tanks and SP guns as write-offs.

mars
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by mars » 03 Nov 2016 14:03

were the 4 "technical losses" of 8 Guards Tank Regiment non combat losses? And should we also count "major repair" as write-offs? Then the total losses for all causes should be 96

And I always wonder why, comparing to Germans, Soviet always suffered such a higher total losses rate

Art
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Art » 03 Nov 2016 14:11

mars wrote:were the 4 "technical losses" of 8 Guards Tank Regiment non combat losses?
Yep.
And should we also count "major repair" as write-offs?
No, why should we?
In any case the report above should be considered as somewhat preliminary ans subject to changes. One should also keep in mind that some of damaged tanks were repaired by 9 May, so the real number of damaged vehicles could be higher than given in the report.

Michate
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Michate » 03 Nov 2016 16:29

Very useful data that clear up so much.

The loss figure for 2TA of 74 write-offs vs. a drop in runners of only 71 (from 121 to 50) suggests some of the 468 tanks reported in repair by 2UKF for the date 1 May 1944 must have become operational during the period.
Are there any comparable loss data for 5 GTA?

Another question: I have seen it suggested that the tank/AFV loss figures in Krivosheev's book include heavy, but repairable damage ("factory repairs") in addition to write-offs. is there anything to this in your opinion?

Just for comparison, AOK 8's report of 6 May 1944 reports the following claims figures:
period 2-3 May 1944: knocked out by ground forces: 189 tanks, destroyed from the air: 96 tanks, an additional 60 have to be assumed damaged
period 4-5 May 1944: knocked out by army/W-SS: 15 tanks, destroyed from the air: 21 tanks, an additional 15 have to be assumed damaged
sum of 4 days: 321 tanks KOed + an additional 75 temporary losses.

These figures actually make up for the better part of the whole figures for Soviet AFV losses claimed by the Germans in May 1944 (by ground forces: 399, by air force: 176, see document: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3#p2044593, also referenced by Zaloga in "Armored Champion"). The air force claims are probably very highly exaggerated. The ground forces' claims are probbaly also somewhat inflated, but considerably less highly.

Art
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Art » 03 Nov 2016 17:22

Michate wrote: The loss figure for 2TA of 74 write-offs vs. a drop in runners of only 71 (from 121 to 50) suggests some of the 468 tanks reported in repair by 2UKF for the date 1 May 1944 must have become operational during the period.
Probably that is because the starting number is underestimated. According to the 2 TA war diary operational on the evening of 1.05.44 were:
82 T-34, 19 IS-122, 5 IS-85, 3 Mk-IX, 19 SU-152, 5 SU-85 or total 133 tanks and SP guns. The same data as in the 2 UF report here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p2045768
I couldn't locate any similar record of losses for the 5 GTA. There is relevant information in situation reports and war diaries of the army and sub-units but it needs processing. What is certain is that 5 GTA was complaining about armor heavy losses inflicted by German aircraft. I can't say how many exactly but they were definitely appreciable. Most Soviet armor losses seem to happen on first two days which corresponds to German claims.

Michate
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Michate » 03 Nov 2016 18:18

Probably that is because the starting number is underestimated. According to the 2 TA war diary operational on the evening of 1.05.44 were:
82 T-34, 19 IS-122, 5 IS-85, 3 Mk-IX, 19 SU-152, 5 SU-85 or total 133 tanks and SP guns. The same data as in the 2 UF report here:
viewtopic.php?p=2045768#p2045768
Ah, that makes sense. Still, the proportion of write-offs to repairable losses is very high. Must have something to do with the Germans remaining in control of most of the battlefield, I assume.
I couldn't locate any similar record of losses for the 5 GTA. There is relevant information in situation reports and war diaries of the army and sub-units but it needs processing. What is certain is that 5 GTA was complaining about armor heavy losses inflicted by German aircraft. I can't say how many exactly but they were definitely appreciable. Most Soviet armor losses seem to happen on first two days which corresponds to German claims.
Interesting. It is clear from divisional or corps reports that in instances when the Germans had plenty of air support (Kursk) they routinely called in close air support (Stukas) once they identified a Soviet tank assembly or impending attack and considered these air attacks very helpful and effective. I generally interpret this in terms of sacttering the tank formations, forcing them to change positions and making their life miserable in general, but perhaps they also managed to cause actual losses. Hilly terrain may have contributed in this case by restricting the tanks' freedom of movement.

Art
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Art » 03 Nov 2016 20:23

Michate wrote: Another question: I have seen it suggested that the tank/AFV loss figures in Krivosheev's book include heavy, but repairable damage ("factory repairs") in addition to write-offs. is there anything to this in your opinion?
I'm definitely sure that when documents spoke about "burnt" or destroyed tanks or written off tanks they didn't mean tanks sent for factory repair. I don't know what exactly documents were used by Krivosheev (I suppose some GABTU records) or even how do they look like. However, at the lower level a definite distinction was made between destroyed (or "burnt down" in typical Soviet terms) AFVs and vehicles shipped for capital repair. Also only those vehicles were written off that were deemed to be impossible to repair.

Art
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Art » 04 Nov 2016 10:39

As an interesting addition: according to a message on a Russian forum 5 GTA lost 139 tanks destroyed and damaged on 2-3 May 1944, of them about 40% to German airplanes. Tanks were knocked out both by bombs and cannon fire. In some cases tanks damaged by aircraft were finished by ground weapons then.
https://www.vif2ne.org/nvk/forum/0/arch ... 469429.htm
It appears that German ground attack sorties were more concentrated against 5 GTA.

Michate
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Michate » 04 Nov 2016 13:57

Art, thank you very much for all this first rate information. Handily beats what can be found in a lot of expensive books I have to say.

mars
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by mars » 04 Nov 2016 14:25

Art wrote:As an interesting addition: according to a message on a Russian forum 5 GTA lost 139 tanks destroyed and damaged on 2-3 May 1944, of them about 40% to German airplanes. Tanks were knocked out both by bombs and cannon fire. In some cases tanks damaged by aircraft were finished by ground weapons then.
https://www.vif2ne.org/nvk/forum/0/arch ... 469429.htm
It appears that German ground attack sorties were more concentrated against 5 GTA.
It is interesting, in WWII air force were rarely be able to inflict such large damage to armor vehicles on the ground

Jan-Hendrik
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 04 Nov 2016 17:59

Art, thank you for this input!!

Excellent!

Jan-Hendrik

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Life Standarda
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Life Standarda » 23 Nov 2016 10:54

Hi,guys,some information I found about the 5 Gds TA's loss during 2 May,1944:

The wardairy of Army is available on this awesome website,
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/jbd/?q=5+%D0%B ... 0%A2%D0%90
According the war dairy,5 Gds TA lost totally about 59 tanks during 2 May, which consisted of:
18TK:2 T-34 (can not be sure)
29Tk:6 T-34 and 1 JS-122(all damaged)
3 Gds Tk: 30 T-34& MK-9 burnt out, another 20 damaged

Another resource also from the same website, seems to be some battle report of 3 Gds Tk:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?operation ... 1%82%D0%B8
According to this report (seems finished by 24.00 2 May), the 3 Gds Tk lost total 98 armoured fighting vehicles during the day,which consisted of:
3 Gds tank Brigade: burnt and damaged 44 T-34
18 Gds tank Brigade: burnt 21 T-34( of which 6 T34-85) and damaged 25(8 T34-85)
1436&1496 SPG regiment lost 2 SU-85 and 2 SU-76 burnt, another 4 SU-85 damaged.
19 Gds TB seems suffered no loss during the day.
I am still try to clarify the strength and losses of this unit in following days.

I should show my grateful appretiation to Art, who introduce the great website to me and also share information of it in many aspects.

Please forgive my mistake or typo above if you guys find them, both English and Russian are not my native language. Regards from China.

Sean Oliver
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Sean Oliver » 22 Feb 2018 19:27

Regarding the success of air attacks against armored vehicles, the Wallies poor results were probably due to their rocket firing planes compared to Germans more accurate antitank cannon.

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