Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Mark V.
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Post by Mark V. » 30 Jun 2004 09:00

Thanks for the additional info, Kamen, very helpful :) .

cheers

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 03 May 2007 01:11

From the standpoint of establishing a complete and accurate history of the Eastern Front, very few histories of the war written by German historians or other Western historians relying primarly on German sources even mention this Red Army offensive, the Battle of Targul Frumos. Following the Soviet, these historians relegate this offensive and instead focusing on the heavy fighting that took place in the Ukraine from January through April 1944. The few exceptions to this rule are General Von Senger und Etterlin's perceptive book ''Der Gegenslag'' and the lecture of General Manteuffel, which, altough tactical in focus correctly concludes that the Germans successful defenses along the Tirgu Frumos axis actually halted the Soviet thrust toward the Ploesti oilfields.

The Red Army 2nd and 3rd Ukrainian Front's indeed intended to capture the cities of Iasi and Kishinev during the spring og 1944 and, if possible, extend their offensive operations into the depths of Romania, if not the Balkan region as a whole.

The defense of the region by the Grossdeutschland Division in that Battle was totally outstanding.

Source: Red Storm Over the Balkans by David Glantz.

Regards

Art
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Post by Art » 07 May 2007 08:27

Benoit Douville wrote: The Red Army 2nd and 3rd Ukrainian Front's indeed intended to capture the cities of Iasi and Kishinev during the spring og 1944 and, if possible, extend their offensive operations into the depths of Romania, if not the Balkan region as a whole.
I don't read the book, however I'm intersted in this moment. What sources did Glantz use concerning the operational objectives and what is the information in this sources?

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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 22 Nov 2008 10:43


Jan-Hendrik
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 28 Nov 2008 09:04


Jan-Hendrik
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 03 Dec 2008 13:16


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tigre
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by tigre » 11 Dec 2008 22:16

Hello Jan-Hendrik :D;
Some documents at PA
Thanks for sharing those documents pal. Cheers. Raúl M 8-).

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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Kelvin » 12 Nov 2009 13:15

Hi, Don't forget GD had I/26 Pz regiment attached and the latter had 50 operational Panther on June 1 1944.

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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 12 Nov 2009 17:14

Hi, Don't forget GD had I/26 Pz regiment attached and the latter had 50 operational Panther on June 1 1944.
You have already heard somewhere that the Battle took place in the first days of May 1944? :roll:

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Victor
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Victor » 08 Jan 2010 12:42

I noticed that the maps I have posted in the first pages of this topic years ago have disappeared.
Here is an improved version:
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3294/tgfrumos.jpg
Because the maximum width on AHF is 800 pixels, it is better to open the image in a separate browser window/tab.
hope it helps get a better picture of the terrain and of the roads.

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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Wingate » 12 Oct 2011 19:15

Gentlemen,

Does anyone know what a Russian mark 9 tank is? 2 of which are listed in the 16th Tank Corps list of tanks. I haven't been able to find reference to them anywhere else. Thanks

Art
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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Art » 12 Oct 2011 20:04

Wingate wrote: Does anyone know what a Russian mark 9 tank is?
It's Valentine IX.

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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Wingate » 14 Oct 2011 09:38

Thanks Art.

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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Cult Icon » 21 Dec 2014 03:37

I would like to know the statistics (strengths, losses) regarding the Soviet participants of these battles (most importantly 1st, 2nd Targul Frumos) from the beginning of April to mid-June 1944.

For the 1st battle of Targul Frumos, the main effort was made by 35 GRC

For the 2nd battle of Targul Frumos, the main effort was made by 7GA, supported by 5GTA and 27A, supported by 2TA.

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Re: Let's Build The Battle of Targul Frumos

Post by Cult Icon » 22 Dec 2014 15:10

I've read "Red Storm over the Balkans" which gives a great account of this battle. Here are my notes while reading, including both soviet and german statistics. Sources: I used Jung, History of PR-GD to get some German armor statistics. I used this thread to get SS-T statistics.

Theses stats are incomplete, as I focused on GD/24.Pz/SS-T and the soviet units facing them & not the Romanians and the more extensive situation on the flanks of the main effort. If anybody needs more stats, ask and I'll post them when I get a chance.
The Red Storm........

Konev's (2UKF) concentric order for breakthrough, April 23rd 1944:

7GA attack with 6 divisions (first echelon) with 5GTA. Other forces to come.

27 A attack with 4 divisions (first echelon) with 2TA. Other forces to come.

Total forces: 14 rifle divisions, 1 fortified region, 5 tank corps, 1 calvary corps, 2 tank brigades, 6 independent tank regiments.

***Rifle divisions mostly between 6,500-5,000 men strong.

7GA is fresh and undamaged. 5GTA medium strength (358 armor). 2TA low strength. (121 armor) 27A.

491 Tanks (of note: 2TA and 5GTA reinforced with 2 x Is-2 regiments each)

150 guns and mortars per KM for support. 2,250 guns and mortars.

Artillery penetration: 18 miles wide x 6 miles deep.

2 UK front air support: 515 aircraft. Luftwaffe: 600 aircraft.

*** 5GTA: 271 Tanks, 87 SPG.

Including: 40 x IS-2, 183 x T-34, 13 x IS-122

*** 2TA: 121 armor

3TC: 50 armor.

Including: 27 x T-34, 5 x IS-85, 18 x ISU-152

16TC: 55 armor.

Including: 32 x T-34, 2x MK-9, 16 x IS-122, 5 x SU-85

11GTB: 16 x T-34



Directly facing them:

GD Holding the front (less than half front line combat strength (@ 40% TOE) but support weapons are strong. 2,400 infantry in 2 regiments ), armor strength fluctuates: maximum 72 runners out of 200 tanks and AG in inventory.)

46th Infantry Division Holding the front.

24. Pz Situated behind the Rumanians. (Brigade size total in various combined arms battle groups. 24 runners (tanks and AG) maximum.)

SS-Totenkopf in reserve (weak, brigade size, missing lots of equipment, armor non-operational)

Panzers and stugs: Maximum 96 operational.

1st Guards Armor Division (Rumanian) 80, mostly light rumanian tanks.

6th Infantry Division (Rumanian)

Germans in the center, Rumanians on the flanks....:devil:

==============

Edit the prior post: GD's biggest claim is 250 tank kills (credited to PR-GD) on May 2nd, 1944.

6-7 rifle divisions assault GD's 2 infantry regiments.

2TA (3TC, 16TC) and 5GTA [2 out of 3](3GTC, 29TC) armor's main effort is GD. 29TC is also putting pressure on the tank-less SS-T.

24 Pz.'s brigade sized force was divided into KG "W" and "E". "W" (25 tanks and AG) was composed of armored/mech forces while "E" was a combined arms infantry force. This force was a fire brigade. "E" was to fix the enemy, while "W" was to attack its flanks and rear.
1st Battle of Targos Frumos April 9-12:

35 Guards rifle corps (2 rifle, 1 airborne) take Targos Frumos. GD (Manteuffel) moves up from reserve, quickly envelops them, and cuts their rear off with its 2 infantry regiments. A panzer battlegroup is on the other side. 24. Pz moves up on its right wing as flank protection and defends against attacks by 33rd GRC.

With the lines of communication cut, the 35 Guards rifle corps retreat out of the area though the openings of the pocket, taking losses with one division badly mauled. 35 GRC and 33 GRC revert to defense.

Until April 23, GD makes short ranged attacks aimed at increasing and improving its defensive perimeter. The Germans know that the 2nd Ukrainian Front is preparing for a new offensive.

April 24-March 1st. GD performs many spoiling attacks aimed at damaging the assembly areas of the offensive and expanding their positions. Another reason for this activity is to harass 7GA and reduce the moral of their forward units.

Manteuffel personally leads several panzer raids (up to 30 tanks and AG) supported by infantry and inflicts equipment losses (trains, support weapons, tanks). He follows the armor groups in his radio SPW, with an forward-observer SPW in front of him. Of interest is how he joins the panzer-regiment during the 2nd battle of targos frumos whenever they make armor counterattacks.

Meanwhile, GD digs in for the offensive, which starts on May 2nd.

24 Pz. routs 3 GAD and 16 TC on May 2nd and forces them to withdraw.

LVII PzK, Status report 8 AOK:

+claims: The main attack beaten off with 350-300 tanks destroyed.
+GD estimates 400 wounded, 6 tanks destroyed, 8 tanks damaged.

2nd Ukrainian Front, May 2nd:

7GA: 123 dead, 573 wounded.
27A: 184 dead, 402 wounded.

Tank write off estimates:

May 2nd-5th 1944, real soviet losses: 227 tanks and AG written off. Most of the remaining armor is damaged.

May 3rd attack. Konev has 300 tanks and AG combat ready.

2TA: 70 armor (2 tank corps)
5GTA: 180 armor (2 tank corps)

Konev regroups his forces; the Germans also regroup directly in front of them.

5GTA loses ~90 armor destroyed and damaged. 2TA, unknown.

7GA: 135 dead, 575 wounded
27A: 173 killed, 352 wounded

May 4th Attack: ~200 tanks and AG combat ready.

7GA:90 dead, 623 wounded
27A:119 dead, 443 wounded

GD disbanded one out of 6 infantry battalions (starting strength: ~400).

Counterattacks by GD and 24.Pz are being planned.

May 5th: Offensive canceled. 5GTA and 2TA removed to reserve. Soviets revert to defense.

2TA has 49 armor left. 5GTA has 215 armor left (148 tanks, 67 SPG).

227 tanks were written off in 3 days. 3,792 men dead and wounded fighting against GD front. Most the pressure was on GD, and intended on destroying it.

GD claims less than ten write-offs. Their armor runners are roughly the same as it was before the offensive started. Personnel losses are 400+ casualties on the first day and were lower in the next days.

May 7th: German counterstroke. 24 Pz and GD attack and retake the soviet gains for the past couple of days. Konev arrests the commander of 35th Guards Rifle corps for losing an important hill.

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