Battle of Debrecen

[Art]

Just came across sever schemes from "Die Panzerschlachten in der Pussta im October 1944" by Kissel:
https://paul-atrydes.livejournal.com/112949.html

[FORBIN Yves]

Just came across sever schemes from "Die Panzerschlachten in der Pussta im October 1944" by Kissel:
https://paul-atrydes.livejournal.com/112949.html

Nice maps thanks !

[Cult Icon]

I read two :

https://www.amazon.com/PANZERSCHLACHT-A ... ian+plains

https://www.amazon.com/Days-Battle-Armo ... es+hungary

These battles involved very weak armored formations.
-

[Sean Oliver]

The first is written amateurishly and needs some major editing. It's more confusing than the Debrecen Operation itself.
The second covers different fighting a few months after Debrecen.
Kissel is probably the best source, but it's old, and based on German sources only due to the complete lack of Soviet material available in 1960.

[albgrigoriev]

6 Gards Tank Army was delayed near Komadi in the period of 06.10 - 12.10.1944

9 Gards Mech. Corp. 14.10 - 15.10.1944

[albgrigoriev]

9 Gards Mech Corp 15-17.10.1944 and 6 Gards Tank Army, map 17.10 - 19.10.1944

[albgrigoriev]

6 Gards Tank Army, map 21.10 - 24.10.1944

[FORBIN Yves]

The first is written amateurishly and needs some major editing. It's more confusing than the Debrecen Operation itself.
The second covers different fighting a few months after Debrecen.
Kissel is probably the best source, but it's old, and based on German sources only due to the complete lack of Soviet material available in 1960.

Please
Die Panzerschlachten in der Pussta im October 1944" by Kissel
i see only in German exist in English ?

[FORBIN Yves]

The first is written amateurishly and needs some major editing. It's more confusing than the Debrecen Operation itself.
The second covers different fighting a few months after Debrecen.
Kissel is probably the best source, but it's old, and based on German sources only due to the complete lack of Soviet material available in 1960.

Please
Die Panzerschlachten in der Pussta im October 1944" by Kissel
i see only in German exist in English ?

A preview about 23th Panzer Division during this battle start page 402
https://books.google.fr/books?id=8_2qI- ... th&f=false

[Sean Oliver]

BTW, those who read English and are interested in the Debrecen/Puszta campaign should get a copy of Rolf Hinze's 'With the Courage of Desperation'. It contains a fairly detailed account of the October battles in Hungary with many excellent maps, but it is based only on German records. The narrative continues into 1945, Budapest, Konrad, etc.

Indeed seems very good and looking to buy but i don't see a prewiew and OB, strength, vehicles number etc... inside also ?

Hinze gives some good strength info on the Panzer divisions which fought around Debrecen in early Oct 44, but it is not exhausrive for other German formations. Very little info on Red Army OB.
Szamveber's book can be downloaded free from a Hungarian history publication site, but it's in Hungarian of course. It has a good appendix with more OB and strength data for both sides and despite the language issue it's simple to understand. It's the best source available in one book but it hasn't been translated yet as far as I know.
We now have primary Red Army sources, but most German and Hungarian military records are thought to be lost.

[Sean Oliver]

P. S. I say "thought to be lost". Szamveber himself recently discovered the KTB of 12 SS Pz. Rgt for Normandy (!) which was thought to be lost forever. He founuud it in a Czech archive, (!?) which didn't know they had it, or misfiled it or something. Who knows what lost docs might yet be discovered?
.

[FORBIN Yves]

6 Guards Tank Army at the start of October 44:
5 Guards Tank Corps - 122 T-34 and 7 SU-85 operational
9 Guards Mechanized Corps - 27 M4A2, 7 Mk-IX Valentine, 3 SU-76
49 Guards Tank Regiment - 8 IS-122
Total 166
42 M4A2 received as replacements 1-20.10.44
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=154015847

Please for the total of Tanks and Su in the whole 6 Guards Tank Army i think about 200 Tanks and Su operationnals ?

Considering your infos 166 in 5 GTC + 9 GMC BTW he have only 37 very low ! even the 23 TC in bad condition have 57...
But 6 Guards Tank Army have also as you say 49 Guards Heavy Tank Regiment but he have JS-2 not JS-122 which are for Heavy Su Rgts
and justely this Army have 364 Heavy Guards Su Rgts and IS-122 are not for him ?

In more a 6 Su Bde with Su-76 so for me with these 2 Su Rgts 6 Guards Tank Army have surely 200 Tanks and Su operationnals for surely a total of 300 - 350.

[FORBIN Yves]

2 UF OOB 01-10-1944

[Cult Icon]

P. S. I say "thought to be lost". Szamveber himself recently discovered the KTB of 12 SS Pz. Rgt for Normandy (!) which was thought to be lost forever. He founuud it in a Czech archive, (!?) which didn't know they had it, or misfiled it or something. Who knows what lost docs might yet be discovered?
.

Are you referring to his book about SS PR-12/PZJ ?

[Sean Oliver]

It does give a good description of the Panzer divisions strength on Oct 1 1944, but very little on everything else such as Hungarian forces.
It describes the fighting, which can be confusing, but it has good maps. Those Red Army maps above will help tremendously!