Raid of Soviet 8th Cavalry Corps at Debalzevo Feb. 1943

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Andreas
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#16

Post by Andreas » 08 Aug 2006, 14:27

Since this thread is now moving more in a general battle discussion, I am moving it to WW2 in the East.

Great contributions, all.

All the best

Andreas

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Gerst
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#17

Post by Gerst » 08 Aug 2006, 16:43

I wonder if one of you gentlemen can help me with a question. My dad was with the XXX AK HQ. On 10 Feb. he was in Debalzevo and moved west for two days to return on the 12th of February. On the 13th he was in "Luganskoje." Is this on the outskirts of Voroshilovgrad? The city was captured the next day. Why would a staff officer be moving forward that way - to aid in the evacuation? Is there another Luganskoye in the area, a small village perhaps, west of Voroshilvgrad?

Arnim


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#18

Post by Mark V. » 08 Aug 2006, 16:48

My father's staff was there until the 10th. The corps "hit town" the very next day and tore the place apart. The weather was terrible. By the account written by General Fretter-Pico, he and his staff barely avoided capture while they were on the move to the west on the 8th of February.
Yes, all sources on these battles confirm Fretter-Pico's account. In late Jan/early Feb the temperature in that part fell to minus 30-40 degrees (Celsius), this was then followed up by very heavy snowing - up to a couple of metres of snow - so indeed very difficult conditions for fighting and as you read different accounts, especially from the counterattacking forces you realize that their spearheads were formed not by panzers but by Schneeräumer. The situation was the same by XXXX.Pz.Korps's forces further to the W, as they were counterattacking Popov's group. These conditions and also very rough terrain were obviously more favourable for the cavalry formations, unrestricted by clear roads or fuel supplies.
I am a bit sleptical about the 12,000 casualties inflicted by the corps but they did a lot of damage and had a lot of guts, that's for sure. They held out for over two weeks behind the German lines and very few managed to escape. They did their duty, and died doing it - that's a soldier's job in every army.
Well said, Gerst, I completely agree with you. As for the casualty figures. Couldn't find anything specific. The one I did (62.Inf.Div.) show these were relatively light with 75 KIA + 154 WIA and 62.ID was the most heavily involved unit (in the final destruction of 7GCC) with 2 regiments (GR 179 & GR354) supported by an artillery battalion. It would seem the fighting was much more intense, when 3rd GA attacked the newly occupied positions as it tried to relieve 7thGCC. The sources show that the Germans were forced to throw their last reserve into action and were also extensively supported by Stukas.
The map is in the 3rd Mt. Division book by Paul Klatt? I must try to find it. How detailed is it about the Fretter-Pico period? Does is name names?
Not really, this is a typical unit history, restricted to the description of 3.Geb.Div.'s actions (which was nevertheless a part of F-P force). The other aren't much better. I think the best way to learn more about battles your father experienced would be to go to NARA and acquire the appropriate microfilms.

Thanks Abel, your constructive comments are always much appreciated. I'll see if I can add something.

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#19

Post by Mark V. » 08 Aug 2006, 16:57

Gerst wrote:I wonder if one of you gentlemen can help me with a question. My dad was with the XXX AK HQ. On 10 Feb. he was in Debalzevo and moved west for two days to return on the 12th of February. On the 13th he was in "Luganskoje." Is this on the outskirts of Voroshilovgrad? The city was captured the next day. Why would a staff officer be moving forward that way - to aid in the evacuation? Is there another Luganskoye in the area, a small village perhaps, west of Voroshilvgrad?

Arnim
Hi Arnim,

Luganskoje is about 10km NW of Debalzewo on the road Debalzewo-Artemowsk. There's another town with a similar name - Luganskaja but this is about 10km E of Woroschilowgrad.

Best Regards
Marko

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#20

Post by ATH » 08 Aug 2006, 18:34

In this 500,000 modern soviet map of the area, you can see where is Luganskoe compared to Debalstsevo. It's also on... the Lugan river. This river runs parallel to the Donetsk until Pervomajsk when it turns towards Gorlovka from which you can only see the eastern suburbs in the map.
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Debaltsevo.gif
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Gerst
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#21

Post by Gerst » 08 Aug 2006, 20:14

Please tell me more about the armored train? Do you have a photo of such a train?

Also, Kampfgruppe Mattheas - were they one of the Fretter-Pico groups? What happened to Kampfgruppe Baer at the Kamensk bridgehead?

Gerst

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#22

Post by Mark V. » 08 Aug 2006, 21:26

Also, Kampfgruppe Mattheas - were they one of the Fretter-Pico groups?
This was Luftwaffen-Feld-Bataillon z.b.V. 100. I incorrectly referred to it as Fhr.Flak.Abt.100 :oops:. It was a battalion sized KG attached to other groups (like Gruppe Schuldt) or directly to AA Fretter-Pico. Don't have much more info on it. Abel?
22/1/43
German forces (KG Schuldt?) counterattack at Kruscilovka, reestablishing Ravenna's Donez positions.
The counterattacking force was from Gr.Kreysing - II. and III./GJR144. It reduced (but not eliminated) the bridgeheads and these didn't pose immediate threat to the AA F-P front as the breakthrough later occured more to the S at Dawydo-Nikolskij. I'm not sure about Gr.Schuldt. According to Lehmann it was engaged from 13.1. E of Kamensk, then nothing till 23.1. when it again reapears as AA F-P reserve in Woroschilowgrad.

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#23

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 08 Aug 2006, 21:39

Again KGr.Schuldt appears :D

Just kidding , good work , Marko 8-)

Jan-Hendrik

Mark V.
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#24

Post by Mark V. » 08 Aug 2006, 22:48

Jan-Hendrik wrote:Again KGr.Schuldt appears :D
You couldn't resist, could you? :wink:

It's kind of interesting both Gr.Schuldt and its original component - KG Dietrich, fought in these battles till the final unification, almost shoulder to shoulder yet both were subordinated to a different higher formation. Schuldt to 6.Pz.Div. and Dietrich to 22.Pz.Div.

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#25

Post by Abel Ravasz » 09 Aug 2006, 03:05

KG Mattheas - basically Luftwaffen-Feld-Bataillon zbV 100 (also dubbed Fallschirmjäger-Bataillon Mattheas), reinforced by some 2-3 artillery batteries, and (at least earlier) an Alarm battalion made up mostly of railway personnel. Not sure about the composition of this unit for 2/43, though. And even more unsure about the unit's structure of subordination - possibly subordinated to Gr. Kreysing at the time.

Thanks for the correction, Marko.

Abel

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Gerst
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#26

Post by Gerst » 09 Aug 2006, 06:55

I am truly grateful for all the information all of you have contributed. I only wish my father had spoken more about his experiences at Debalzevo. I always wondered why a staff officer would be firing a machinegun in combat and now I know! He was a machinegunner before he left the enlisted ranks in 1936. I guess his training finally paid off.

Gerst

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#27

Post by Gerst » 09 Aug 2006, 19:14

What is the present name of the following towns and where are they located in relation to Voroshilovgrad?

Dawydo-Nikolskij; Nowa Svetlowka (on the Kreysing map); Gorodischtsche; Olchowka valley; Kruscilovka; Shterovka.

Also, does anyone have a map of the area showing the rivers - Donets, Mius, Aidar, Kalitva -- in the same general area as the towns?

It is difficult to "follow the action" without being able to see the locations on a map. The maps have seen often have different spellings, some in German, some in English and the present names of towns are often not the same as they were in 1943. Of course the Russian maps are even more difficult for me because I am limited to English, German and French!

Thanks for your help!

Arnim

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#28

Post by Mark V. » 10 Aug 2006, 14:33

Hi Gerst!
It is difficult to "follow the action" without being able to see the locations on a map.
I know the feeling. Here's the modified map, based on the original Wehrmacht map. I know it'd be best to post the latter but it's just so difficult scanning it.

Image

I've also checked for present day names:

Woroschilowgrad - Luhans'k
Dawydo-Nikolskij - Davydo-Mykil's'ke
Nowa Svetlowka - Novosvitlivka
Kruscilovka - Kruzylivka
Gorodischtsche - Horodysce
Shterovka - Sterivka

Try to help yourself with mapquest.com:
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?fo ... luhans%27k

Marko

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Gerst
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#29

Post by Gerst » 10 Aug 2006, 16:34

Thanks, Marko. I am in your debt!

Arnim

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Gerst
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#30

Post by Gerst » 10 Aug 2006, 17:04

Marko,

Do you by chance have a map covering this same period which shows the XXX Armeekorps / Armeeabteilung Fretter-Pico headquarters locations? Also, do you have a map covering the period from the end of December 1942 through January 1943 which shows the front between Millerovo and Kamensk and the actions of the Kampfgruppen and the 304 I.D. along that front? Finally, in the book Last Victory and Fretter-Pico's Missbrauchte Infanterie there is mention of the bridgehead held by Gruppe Baer. I have never seen this on a map. Can you help me with that also?

I am sorry to be such a bother. My father's records included no maps at all, just an accunt of where he was. I am lucky to have this because it begins the day he joined the XXX Armeekorps on the Westwall in August 1939.

Thank you my friend,

Arnim

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