Tank Battle at Studzianki

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critical mass
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Re: Tank Battle at Studzianki

Post by critical mass » 12 Apr 2019 13:48

How many german tanks did the involved polish units claim destroyed in the first place? How does that number then relate to the Chuikov's commissions findings? Apparently, 36th Guard Heavy Tank Regiment also claims 19 enemy AFV during 9-10 August and 35 Gurad Rifle division also claim 8 AFV burnt and 2 damaged. That´s a lot: 28 AFV, sans polish claims.

Art
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Re: Tank Battle at Studzianki

Post by Art » 12 Apr 2019 16:21

Life Standarda wrote:
12 Apr 2019 08:17
Besides, I found it is interesting about status record of irrecoverable loss Soviet tanks. As I see in some cases, a tank suffered damaged beyond repair(such as burnt out) will first be recorded as "burnt" and later "irrecoverable loss'', and it still appears on the status list for several days before the finally "write-offs". That means there is a time difference between the fatal damage occurrence and the "write-offs" action for Soviet tanks.
Normally an act with signatures and stamps had to be prepared by a unit for every tank to be written off, which was to be approved then by higher headquarters. Naturally that took time, which was not always available in battle situation. I found that this time lag varied a lot between different commands, probably depending on how much attention was given by a particular officer to this paperwork.

GregSingh
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Re: Tank Battle at Studzianki

Post by GregSingh » 13 Apr 2019 11:21

I am curious is the daily loss by 1st Polish Armoured Brigade available
Some Polish daily and summary reports are available in Nr.299 "Studzianki 1944". Numbers of damaged tanks don't add up as much as I can see.
Total number of destroyed ones was 18, the same as in Art's earlier post.
If we become increasingly humble about how little we know, we may be more eager to search.

BartekPL
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Re: Tank Battle at Studzianki

Post by BartekPL » 13 Apr 2019 15:28

GregSingh wrote:
13 Apr 2019 11:21
I am curious is the daily loss by 1st Polish Armoured Brigade available
Some Polish daily and summary reports are available in Nr.299 "Studzianki 1944". Numbers of damaged tanks don't add up as much as I can see.
Total number of destroyed ones was 18, the same as in Art's earlier post.
I mentioned Polish losses in the 4th post of this thread.
BartekPL wrote:
08 Apr 2019 16:38
On the other hand Polish unit lost 68 tankers and fusiliers KIA, 207 tankers and fusiliers WIA. In case of tank losses - 18 tanks ended up classified as destroyed and 10 as damaged, brigade was using T-34-76s and T-70Ms. This was actually the Brigade's first battle, which makes this victory look even better.

Art wrote:
12 Apr 2019 07:08
BartekPL wrote:
11 Apr 2019 17:58
D) 40th Heavy Tanks Regiment with 50% of its tanks being serviceable,
It wasn't present there. You probably mean 36 Guards Heavy Tank Regiment (12 IS-122 operational on 8 August 44)
1087 SP Regiment had 17 SU-76 operational on 8.8.44
That's correct, it appears in many Polish books for unknown reason, even though that other Soviet units are identified correctly, even better, Polish books often mention when the Soviets fighting alongside Poles claimed/destroyed something. However, I don't know why 40th Heavy Tank Regiment is mentioned instead of 36th Guards Heavy Tank Regiment.
Art wrote:
12 Apr 2019 07:11
Cumulative losses (write-offs) as reported by 8 Guards Army HQ's armor section:
11 August - 1 T-34
12 August - 8 T-34
14 August - 14 T-34
16 August - 18 T-34.
I'm not sure that those reported figures were fully synchronized with actual losses.
Tank losses of Polish regiments of 1 BPanc. mentioned in "Warszawska pancerna" by Kazimierz Przytocki:

1) 10th August: 12 T-34-76, 10 T-34-76s in 1 pcz -(1st Tank Regiment, which crossed the Vistula as the first (first tanks before the midnight on 9th August already) and with every company being thrown immediately into the battle, sadly without time for reconnaissance which resulted in heavy losses of the 3rd Tank Company, ordered to attack immediately after making to the other side of the Vistula, without even a word where the German defense line is), 2 of them suffered an ammunition explosion, 1 burned out, 2 more set on fire, in 2 pcz (2nd Tank Regiment) 2 T-34-76s - 1 burned out (unrepairable) and 1 damaged,

2) 11th August: 6 T-34-76: 2 burned out, 4 damaged,

3) 12th August: 6 T-34-76: 1 burned out, 5 damaged,

4) 13th August: 3 T-34-76: 1 burned out, 2 damaged,

5) 14th August: 1 T-34-76: 1 damaged,

Thanks to a great job done by one of Polish historians who spent a lot of time analyzing this battle (recent versions of his book on this battle have some 1100+ pages) it is possible to tell which T-34-76 (turret number) was damaged/lost on each day.

Life Standarda wrote:
12 Apr 2019 08:40
It seems this JS unit inflicted heavy losses on the attack HG troops on 9th August. It engaged near Studzianki-Dabrowki-Grabnowola that day, block the advance route of left group of HG (reinforced 1st PGR) division, claiming 12 enemy AFV knocked. Besides, 35 Gurad Rifle division engaged in similar area also claim 8 AFV burnt and 2 damaged on 19.30.

Engagment between 8-9th August seems to be bloody for HG panzer units. It suffered 4 PzIV and 2 PzJgIV as total-loss;further more, the reinforced group "Baier" from 19pzd also sufferd 1 PzIV loss on 9th August. Such high cost confirms 36GTR and 35 GRD's claims more or less.

Regards.

Remember that AFV is a "wide term", AFV might be, for example Sd Kfz 250/251 or Pz Kpfw VI Ausf B. That's a great difference after all.

critical mass wrote:
12 Apr 2019 13:48
How many german tanks did the involved polish units claim destroyed in the first place? How does that number then relate to the Chuikov's commissions findings? Apparently, 36th Guard Heavy Tank Regiment also claims 19 enemy AFV during 9-10 August and 35 Gurad Rifle division also claim 8 AFV burnt and 2 damaged. That´s a lot: 28 AFV, sans polish claims.
"Polish", not "polish". You can "polish" your car, but the unit is "Polish".



In case of claims of Polish 1 BPanc. and Chuikov's commission:

A) ppłk Malutin (chief of brigade's staff) mentioned in report on casualties inflicted on the enemy (in case of AFVs):
czołgów "Tygrys" - 7,
czołgów T -IV - 17,
czołgów T - III - 1,
dział samochodowych "Ferdynand" - 11,
transporterów opancerzonych - 9,
dział samochodowych "Pantera" - 1,
dział samochodowych "Jungsturm" -2,
1) 7 Tiger tanks,

2) 17 T-IV tanks,

3) 1 T-III tank,

4) 11 Ferdinand SPGs,

5) 9 APCs,

6) 1 Panther SPG,

7) 2 "Jungsturm" SPGs,

B) Chuikov's commission:

1) 2 Tiger tanks,

2) 12 T-IV tanks,

3) 1 T-III tank,

4) 6 Ferdinand SPGs,

5) 2 "Jungsturm" SPGs,

6) 1 Panther tank,

7) 9 APCs,


For those who don't know a lot about the Eastern Front claims:

1) Tiger - if reported in the area where tigers didn't fight - from my experience often Pz Kpfw IV without hull's schürzens or sometimes Panther tank (I don't really have a clue why though),

2) T-IV - Pz Kpfw IV,

3) T-III - Pz Kpfw III or sometimes Pz Kpfw IV,

4) Ferdinand - often any German SPG, from Marder to actual Ferdinand/Elephant,

5) "Jungsturm" - only in documents of this battle - Jagdpanzer IV,

Best regards
Bartłomiej

critical mass
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Re: Tank Battle at Studzianki

Post by critical mass » 13 Apr 2019 20:01

To sum up, the original claims were:

Polish units filed 39 german tanks or SPG, later revised to 24.
36th Guard Heavy Tank Regiment filed 19 german tanks or SPG
35 Gurad Rifle division filed 8 german tanks or SPG

= 66 kill claims originally, later revised down to 51 tanks or SPG.

Actual german total write offs were:
HG: 4 Pz-IV + 2 PzJg-IV
19th PD: 1 Pz-IV
what am I missing?

BartekPL
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Re: Tank Battle at Studzianki

Post by BartekPL » 13 Apr 2019 20:25

critical mass wrote:
13 Apr 2019 20:01
To sum up, the original claims were:

Polish units filed 39 german tanks or SPG, later revised to 24.
36th Guard Heavy Tank Regiment filed 19 german tanks or SPG
35 Gurad Rifle division filed 8 german tanks or SPG

= 66 kill claims originally, later revised down to 51 tanks or SPG.

Actual german total write offs were:
HG: 4 Pz-IV + 2 PzJg-IV
19th PD: 1 Pz-IV
what am I missing?
Hmm... what are you missing? 🤔 Let me think, um... ah yes! Everything.

BartekPL wrote:
11 Apr 2019 17:58
1) Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1 "Hermann Göring" losses suffered between 28th July and 15th August:

A) 18 Pz Kpfw IV (destroyed or damaged and captured by Soviet-Polish troops),

B) 11 Jagdpanzer IV (destroyed or damaged and captured by Soviet-Polish troops),

C) 3.397 soldiers KIA, WIA and MIA,


From the moment Polish Brigade entered fights, the Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1 "Hermann Göring" lost 5 Pz Kpfw IV, 2 Jagdpanzer IV and 2 Marders of attached Panzer-Grenadier-Lehr-Bataillon "Krampnitz'''.

It should be noted that losses presented above include wide time span, so in case of the Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1 "Hermann Göring" they also include losses suffered during fights within Warsaw against Polish resistance and outside of this city against Soviet troops.

2) 19. Panzer-Division losses suffered between 5th and 20th August,

A) 11 Pz Kpfw IV (destroyed or damaged and captured by Soviet-Polish troops),

B) 9 Pz Kpfw V (destroyed or damaged and captured by Soviet-Polish troops),

C) 12 officers, 34 NCOs i 150 privates KIA,

D) 53 officers, 246 NCOs i 826 privates WIA,

E) 26 NCOs i 300 privates MIA,
Did you even read what I wrote earlier? Surely Poles claimed also damaged/set on fire tanks and SPGs, there is no doubt about, they could even add 5 tanks/SPGs to their account. Yet you forget that Soviets also claimed plenty of AFVs, as I explained just in case - AFV not always, equals tank/SPG, it might be just an APC Sd Kfz 250/251, Germans had plenty of them during fights there. Life Standarda provided Soviet claims of only two units for 9th and 10th August, I provided data for Polish 1 BPanc. for 10-17.08.1944.

Best regards
Bartłomiej

critical mass
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Re: Tank Battle at Studzianki

Post by critical mass » 13 Apr 2019 22:53

The timeframe doesnt fit (3weeks instead of 3, or7 days), a day by day breakdown might help. It’s unfortunate that You rely German losses to soviet and PL sources of unsubstantiated captures and destroyed files.
If You attempt to undertake serious research, the first step is to cross verify with loss Records from the other side, not what the PL or RA thought they managed to destroy. This is a basic research technique which provides You an independent source argument against hypothesis testing. And then, one might look into late reporting in that regard, too.
What You suggest here instead is a fairly classic example of what I figure, will lead You in circle by confirmation bias.

Stephan
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Re: Tank Battle at Studzianki

Post by Stephan » 17 Apr 2019 22:29

I want to mention one especial aspect to the german losses. Germans were very good at salvaging and repairing damaged wagons.
Thus, it is fully possible, and I know happened elsewhere, a fighting force reports say 20 damaged german tanks, hurra hurra!
But the counting group arriving next day finds only 7 wrecks.

False reports, or at least, coloring up?? The germans salvaged 13 not hopelessly destroyed wagons during the night... And left only these beyong any reparation and or burned out....

This my example was from north Africa deserts, where once a battery of 6 pounders /57mm made pinced meat off a group of italian and german tanks. The battery got later support of some american Shermans... Splendid victory, no?? But next day were less than half of the wrecks still in there to get a sure count of... Still nicely done, by just 6 and 2 pounders, but not longer much to loudly boast about...


To summarize. It WAS recorded 20 wagons as destroyed. But there is a big possibility quite a few more were hit, and become useless in the fight this day. But germans didnt wrote off these they were able to repair... I mean, the polish claims could be more reasonable than there are documented for.

BartekPL
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Re: Tank Battle at Studzianki

Post by BartekPL » 19 Apr 2019 13:00

critical mass wrote:
13 Apr 2019 22:53
The timeframe doesnt fit (3weeks instead of 3, or7 days), a day by day breakdown might help. It’s unfortunate that You rely German losses to soviet and PL sources of unsubstantiated captures and destroyed files.
If You attempt to undertake serious research, the first step is to cross verify with loss Records from the other side, not what the PL or RA thought they managed to destroy. This is a basic research technique which provides You an independent source argument against hypothesis testing. And then, one might look into late reporting in that regard, too.
What You suggest here instead is a fairly classic example of what I figure, will lead You in circle by confirmation bias.

Eh... I hope you will read my posts in this thread, because seemingly you didn't. I provided German losses documented from the German side for two Panzer-Divisions (Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1 "Hermann Göring" and 19. Panzer-Division), sadly I couldn't fight accurate data on 45. Grenadier-Division, all I know for sure is that it suffered serious personal losses, no data on 17. Infanterie-Division:
BartekPL wrote:
11 Apr 2019 17:58
Yes, mentioned tanks and SPGs were destroyed or heavily damaged and eventually captured by Soviet-Polish troops.

1) Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1 "Hermann Göring" losses suffered between 28th July and 15th August:

A) 18 Pz Kpfw IV (destroyed or damaged and captured by Soviet-Polish troops),

B) 11 Jagdpanzer IV (destroyed or damaged and captured by Soviet-Polish troops),

C) 3.397 soldiers KIA, WIA and MIA,


From the moment Polish Brigade entered fights, the Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1 "Hermann Göring" lost 5 Pz Kpfw IV, 2 Jagdpanzer IV and 2 Marders of attached Panzer-Grenadier-Lehr-Bataillon "Krampnitz'''.

It should be noted that losses presented above include wide time span, so in case of the Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1 "Hermann Göring" they also include losses suffered during fights within Warsaw against Polish resistance and outside of this city against Soviet troops.

2) 19. Panzer-Division losses suffered between 5th and 20th August,

A) 11 Pz Kpfw IV (destroyed or damaged and captured by Soviet-Polish troops),

B) 9 Pz Kpfw V (destroyed or damaged and captured by Soviet-Polish troops),

C) 12 officers, 34 NCOs i 150 privates KIA,

D) 53 officers, 246 NCOs i 826 privates WIA,

E) 26 NCOs i 300 privates MIA,
Therefore suggesting that this is a Soviet-Polish bias is literally an absurd.

Again about losses of the Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1 "Hermann Göring":

On 28th July 1944 one Jagdpanzer IV was lost, on the next dat - 7 Jagdpanzer IV and one Pz Kpfw IV.

Day by day losses verification in August of 1944 won't help that much, since both Polish 1 BPanc. and Soviet troops were claiming destroying bunch of the same vehicle types.

Best regards
Bartłomiej

critical mass
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Re: Tank Battle at Studzianki

Post by critical mass » 28 Apr 2019 15:48

I noted what You wrote and rejected it as unsound. You take claims for a specific timeframe and rely them first and foremost to claims. It´s not about soviet-PL bias- it´s about, what is regarded among researchers a fairly basic research method, and which I find lacking here. Claims are constructions by nature. You never cross verify claims with records from the claimant side, if You are interested in what happend in real events (rather than Your constructivist view on what You believe to have happend).
Referring to the loss data, they related to a wider time domain than the time domain of the claims and as such are incoherent with the claims and of limited utility here. Perhaps You can offer a consistent(!) confrontation in relation to similar time domains for both sides? If You think that day by day losses aren´t helping because the soviets also claimed a lot than You are in error. Sometimes understanding that we can´t answer a specific question in the light of aviable evidence already constitutes for an advance in knowledge. At least, one will be able to quantify the range of possible variances involved in this question.

FORBIN Yves
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Re: Tank Battle at Studzianki

Post by FORBIN Yves » 08 May 2019 14:06

I don't see a topic and a question for 1st Polish Army the 18 july when start Lublin–Brest Offensive where she is behind 1st Bielorussian front left wing in reserve or arrive in Rft ?

And she have 1st armored and cavalry Brigades but how many IDs she have 5 in 1945 and armored Rgts ?

Art
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Re: Tank Battle at Studzianki

Post by Art » 08 May 2019 16:57

The Polish Army had 3 Infantry Divisions (1st to 3rd) and was only committed to action in beginning from 1 August. In addition to the tank brigade they had SU-76 battalions in infantry divisions (13 SU-76 each) and also some minor armor units.

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henryk
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Re: Tank Battle at Studzianki

Post by henryk » 08 May 2019 21:57

http://www.unithistories.com/units_inde ... /units.asp
1st Army (1. Armia Wojska Polskiego)
History
1st Army - 1.AWP (1. Armia Wojska Polskiego) - assigned to the 1st Belarussian Front.
It was first fighting at the Vistula bridgeheads (Studzianki, 9-14 August 1944). On 14 September 1944 the 1.AWP units captured the right-bank Warsaw (since 1 August 1944 there was the Uprising in left-bank Warsaw), and in the following days only the elements of the Polish infantry managed to cross Vistula, and then shared the fate of the insurgents, who surrendered on 2 October 1944. In January 1945 the 1.AWP took the remains of Warsaw. Then, the 1.AWP fought at Pommern-Stellung wall, Kolobrzeg (Kolberg), Gdansk (Danzig), the Oder crossing. Finally, in April-May 1945 it fought in Berlin Operation at Hohenzollern Kanal and Havellendisher Grosser Haupt Kanal crossing, reaching the Elbe and linking with the US units. The 1st Tadeusz Kosciuszko Infantry Division and some artillery and engineer units took part in a street-fighting in Berlin (ZOO, Tiergarten).

Army troops
Infantry
1st Infantry Division 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
2nd Infantry Division 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
3rd Infantry Division 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
4th Infantry Division 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
6th Infantry Division 00.00.0000-00.00.0000

Artillery
1st AA-Artillery Division 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
1st Artillery Brigade 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
2nd Artillery Brigade 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
3rd Artillery Brigade 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
4th Artillery Brigade 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
5th Artillery Brigade 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
1st Mortar Regiment 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
13th SP-Artillery Regiment 00.00.0000-00.00.0000

Armor
1st Westerplatte Heroes Armoured Brigade (1 Brygada Pancerna “Bohaterów Westerplatte”) 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
4th Independent Heavy Tank Regiment 00.00.0000-00.00.0000

Other troops
1st Warsaw Cavalry Brigade 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
1st Engineers Brigade 00.00.0000-00.00.0000

Sources & links: Short summary of Polish armed forces 1940-45
Site design & initiative: Hans Houterman
Page research by: Marcin Wojtuszkiewicz
Page created by: Jeroen Koppes
Last update: 30.04.2003-CSS
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FORBIN Yves
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Re: Tank Battle at Studzianki

Post by FORBIN Yves » 09 May 2019 12:47

henryk wrote:
08 May 2019 21:57
http://www.unithistories.com/units_inde ... /units.asp
1st Army (1. Armia Wojska Polskiego)
History
1st Army - 1.AWP (1. Armia Wojska Polskiego) - assigned to the 1st Belarussian Front.
It was first fighting at the Vistula bridgeheads (Studzianki, 9-14 August 1944). On 14 September 1944 the 1.AWP units captured the right-bank Warsaw (since 1 August 1944 there was the Uprising in left-bank Warsaw), and in the following days only the elements of the Polish infantry managed to cross Vistula, and then shared the fate of the insurgents, who surrendered on 2 October 1944. In January 1945 the 1.AWP took the remains of Warsaw. Then, the 1.AWP fought at Pommern-Stellung wall, Kolobrzeg (Kolberg), Gdansk (Danzig), the Oder crossing. Finally, in April-May 1945 it fought in Berlin Operation at Hohenzollern Kanal and Havellendisher Grosser Haupt Kanal crossing, reaching the Elbe and linking with the US units. The 1st Tadeusz Kosciuszko Infantry Division and some artillery and engineer units took part in a street-fighting in Berlin (ZOO, Tiergarten).

Army troops
Infantry
1st Infantry Division 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
2nd Infantry Division 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
3rd Infantry Division 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
4th Infantry Division 00.00.0000-00.00.0000
6th Infantry Division 00.00.0000-00.00.0000

3
Thanks but sorry
Art wrote:
08 May 2019 16:57
The Polish Army had 3 Infantry Divisions (1st to 3rd) and was only committed to action in beginning from 1 August. In addition to the tank brigade they had SU-76 battalions in infantry divisions (13 SU-76 each) and also some minor armor units.
For 13th SP-Artillery Regiment and 4 Heavy Armored Rgt quite sure on JS-2 he have sure in 1945.

3 or 5 Infantry Divisions ?
What strenth have such ID ? IIRC much more than a Soviet after 3 years of war have mid 1944 max 7000 troops some 4 -5000 i think a Polish ID 10-12000 troops ?
1st Polish Army have 12/01/45, 68000 troops so surely at less 10000 troops by ID and logicaly can to be only more in 1944

I have see a map with this army the 20 july on the front line of the 1st Belorussian Front front the 18 july so for me she is in reserve and move behind others Armies and effectively engaged 1 august but ready before.

http://mil.ru/files/morf/karta_f(4).jpg
What is it field with small circles in a circle ?

BartekPL
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Re: Tank Battle at Studzianki

Post by BartekPL » 10 May 2019 14:06

critical mass wrote:
28 Apr 2019 15:48
I noted what You wrote and rejected it as unsound. You take claims for a specific timeframe and rely them first and foremost to claims. It´s not about soviet-PL bias- it´s about, what is regarded among researchers a fairly basic research method, and which I find lacking here. Claims are constructions by nature. You never cross verify claims with records from the claimant side, if You are interested in what happend in real events (rather than Your constructivist view on what You believe to have happend).
Referring to the loss data, they related to a wider time domain than the time domain of the claims and as such are incoherent with the claims and of limited utility here. Perhaps You can offer a consistent(!) confrontation in relation to similar time domains for both sides? If You think that day by day losses aren´t helping because the soviets also claimed a lot than You are in error. Sometimes understanding that we can´t answer a specific question in the light of aviable evidence already constitutes for an advance in knowledge. At least, one will be able to quantify the range of possible variances involved in this question.
Ok, so if it is not about Soviet-Polish bias, then maybe it is German bias? Just to quote you:
critical mass wrote:
13 Apr 2019 20:01
To sum up, the original claims were:

Polish units filed 39 german tanks or SPG, later revised to 24.
36th Guard Heavy Tank Regiment filed 19 german tanks or SPG
35 Gurad Rifle division filed 8 german tanks or SPG

= 66 kill claims originally, later revised down to 51 tanks or SPG.

Actual german total write offs were:
HG: 4 Pz-IV + 2 PzJg-IV
19th PD: 1 Pz-IV
what am I missing?
I provided data for Polish claims, part of German losses (even despite the fact, that losses of Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1 "Hermann Göring" tanks, suffered since the Polish 1st Armored Brigade joined the battle, has been provided, as well as 19. Panzer-Division losses for not so wide time frame, you reduced them to a number, you can't support in any way), based my claims on the losses which Polish Brigade could actually inflict on Chuikov's commission report as well as available photographs. Nowhere did anyone state, that 66 kill claims were revised to 51, since I provided a verification report for the Polish 1st Armored Brigade only, the rest of these claims remained claims and from what I know, these claims are just a part of what Soviet troops claimed. So try to do not misinterpret what I or other members of this forum write, because it starts to look like a real German bias, especially this part:
Actual german total write offs were:
HG: 4 Pz-IV + 2 PzJg-IV
19th PD: 1 Pz-IV
what am I missing?
because of what I already mentioned.
FORBIN Yves wrote:
08 May 2019 14:06
I don't see a topic and a question for 1st Polish Army the 18 july when start Lublin–Brest Offensive where she is behind 1st Bielorussian front left wing in reserve or arrive in Rft ?

And she have 1st armored and cavalry Brigades but how many IDs she have 5 in 1945 and armored Rgts ?
I recommend you to submit a new thread, this one is concentrated around the battle of Studzianki, not OdB of the Polish 1st Army.


Best regards
Bartłomiej

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