British Historian: "A pre-emptive German strike on the

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
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Scott Smith
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#31

Post by Scott Smith » 19 Nov 2002, 22:20

Rob S. wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:Hitler never pretended otherwise--which doesn't mean that he would not have preferred peaceful solutions to Germany's strategic problems. His declaration shows his strategic thinking.
Ich verstehe nicht Scott. Hitler had the idea of invading Russia while in jail writing his kampf. "We must therefore head East."

Hitler looking for a peaceful soluation in Russia is like saying Rumsfeld and Bush are looking for a peaceful solution in Iraq. They simply aren't, but they still find a way to fit "peace" into their speeches. If Hitler wanted peace with Russia, he could have strengthened ties with them. Stalin was already an admirer of Hitler.
Hitler may have long toyed with a "Barbarossa-esque" crusade as an ideological fix to Bolshevism, and he said in Mein Kampf that Germany's strategic objectives in WWI should have been against Russia to acquire Lebensraum from the Tsar's moribund (and non-Russian) empire instead of against Britain and France for the prestige of overseas colonies that Germany didn't need and couldn't defend anyway with a second-rate navy.

But I don't think that any of this was inevitable.

Hitler had other fish to fry in 1941 and I think the idea of cooperation with the Soviets resorted to in 1939 was sincere. If peace had been possible in the West, then I don't think that Germany would have looked for easy answers in the East.

Hitler could easily understand Stalin's Realpolitik, but had trouble fathoming at times Anglo-Saxon Idealpolitik and their outrageous cant. As I've said before, diplomats are monumental charlatans and not some collection of bourgeois Weimar politicians that can be pushed around with NS can-do.
:)

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Roberto
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#32

Post by Roberto » 19 Nov 2002, 22:40

Scott Smith wrote:
Rob S. wrote:
Scott Smith wrote:Hitler never pretended otherwise--which doesn't mean that he would not have preferred peaceful solutions to Germany's strategic problems. His declaration shows his strategic thinking.
Ich verstehe nicht Scott. Hitler had the idea of invading Russia while in jail writing his kampf. "We must therefore head East."

Hitler looking for a peaceful soluation in Russia is like saying Rumsfeld and Bush are looking for a peaceful solution in Iraq. They simply aren't, but they still find a way to fit "peace" into their speeches. If Hitler wanted peace with Russia, he could have strengthened ties with them. Stalin was already an admirer of Hitler.
Hitler may have long toyed with a "Barbarossa-esque" crusade as an ideological fix to Bolshevism, and he said in Mein Kampf that Germany's strategic objectives in WWI should have been against Russia to acquire Lebensraum from the Tsar's moribund (and non-Russian) empire instead of against Britain and France for the prestige of overseas colonies that Germany didn't need and couldn't defend anyway with a second-rate navy.
Let's have a look at the Führer's "toying":
We National Socialists have to go still further. The right to territory may become a duty when a great nation seems destined to go under unless its territory be extended. And that is particularly true when the nation in question is not some little group of negro people but the Germanic mother of all the life which has given cultural shape to the modern world. Germany will either become a World Power or will not continue to exist at all. But in order to become a World Power it needs that territorial magnitude which gives it the necessary importance to-day and assures the existence of its citizens.
Therefore we National Socialists have purposely drawn a line through the line of conduct followed by pre-War Germany in foreign policy. We put an end to the perpetual Germanic march towards the South and West of Europe and turn our eyes towards the lands of the East. We finally put a stop to the colonial and trade policy of pre-War times and pass over to the territorial policy of the future.
But when we speak of new territory in Europe to-day we must principally think of Russia and the border States subject to her.
Destiny itself seems to wish to point out the way for us here. In delivering Russia over to Bolshevism, Fate robbed the Russian people of that intellectual class which had once created the Russian State and were the guarantee of its existence. For the Russian State was not organized by the constructive political talent of the Slav element in Russia, but was much more a marvellous exemplification of the capacity for State-building possessed by the Germanic element in a race of inferior worth. Thus were many powerful Empires created all over the earth. More often than once inferior races with Germanic organizers and rulers as their leaders became formidable States and continued to exist as long as the racial nucleus remained which had originally created each respective State. For centuries Russia owed the source of its livelihood as a State to the Germanic nucleus of its governing class. But this nucleus is now almost wholly broken up and abolished. The Jew has taken its place. Just as it is impossible for the Russian to shake off the Jewish yoke by exerting his own powers, so, too, it is impossible for the Jew to keep this formidable State in existence for any long period of time. He himself is by no means an organizing element, but rather a ferment of decomposition. This colossal Empire in the East is ripe for dissolution. And the end of the Jewish domination in Russia will also be the end of Russia as a State. We are chosen by Destiny to be the witnesses of a catastrophe which will afford the strongest confirmation of the nationalist theory of race.
But it is our task, and it is the mission of the National Socialist Movement, to develop in our people that political mentality which will enable them to realize that the aim which they must set to themselves for the fulfilment of their future must not be some wildly enthusiastic adventure in the footsteps of Alexander the Great but industrious labour with the German plough, for which the German sword will provide the soil.
Source of quote:

http://www.stormfront.org/books/mein_ka ... 2ch14.html

What we would now need is evidence that and when Hitler gave up this "toying".

Could Smith please provide such evidence?

Note: "I think that ..." or "I don't think that ..." will not be accepted as evidence.
[...]Beyond satisfying the immediate needs of Germany during the war, there remained to be decided the long-term future of an area which, assuming the objectives of a line from Archangel to Astrakhan was achieved, contained over a hundred million people. Hitler had never thought of the invasion of Russia ending with a conventional peace treaty; it was to be a war of conquest, the purpose of which was not only to overthrow the Bolshevik regime but to prevent the emergence of a successor Russian state. But what was to replace it?
An unusual insight into Hitler’s mind I 1941-2 is provided by his Table Talk, records of the monologues to which his guests and entourage were subjected after meals at Hitler’s HQ, either the permanent installation in East Prussia which Hitler called ‘Wolfsschanze’ (Fort Wolf) , or his temporary HQ at Vinnitza in the Ukraine which he called ‘Werwolf’. Hitler would not allow a tape-recorder to be used, but he agreed to Bormann’s suggestion that a party official might be admitted to his meals who would sit in a corner and take notices unobtrusively. These were later corrected and approved by Bormann, as a record of the Führer’s genius.
The months from March to the end of October 1941 were a period in which Hitler felt more convinced than ever of his genius, the highpoint of the fantastic career in which he saw himself as the peer of Napoleon, Bismarck and Frederick the Great – characters to whom he referred in familiar terms – pursuing ‘the Cyclopean task which the building of an empire means for a single man.
The character of that empire was a subject which fired his imagination and constantly recurred in his talk. After the evening meal on 27 July he defined its limits as a line 200 – 300 kilometres east of the Urals; the Germans must hold this line in perpetuity and never allow any other military power to establish itself to the west of it.

It should be possible for us to control this region in the East, with 250,000 men plus a cadre of good administrators. Let’s learn from the English, who, with 250,000 men in all, including 50,000 soldiers, govern 400 million Indians. This space in Russia must always be dominated by Germans.
Nothing would be a worse mistake on our part than to seek to educate the masses there …
We’ll take the southern part of Ukraine, especially the Crimea, and make it an exclusively German colony. There’ll be no harm in pushing out the population that’s there now. The German colonist will be the soldier – peasant, and for that I’ll take professional soldiers … For those of them who are sons of peasants, the Reich will provide a completely-equipped farm. The soil costs us nothing, we have only the farm to build … These soldier peasants will be given arms, so that at the slightest danger they can be at their posts when we summon them.


Hitler returned to the subject on the evening of 17 October, when Todt and Gauleiter Sauckel (who was responsible for conscripting foreign workers) provided and appreciative audience:

The Russian desert, we shall populate it … We’ll take away its character of an Asian steppe, we’ll Europeanise it. With this object we have undertaken the construction of road that will lead to the southernmost part of the Crimea and to the Caucasus. These road will be studded along their whole length with German towns and around these towns our colonists will settle.
As for the two or three million men whom we need to accomplish this task, we’ll find them quicker than we think. They’ll come from Germany, Scandinavia, the Western countries, and America. I shall no longer be here to see all that, but in twenty years, the Ukraine will already be a home for twenty million inhabitants, besides the natives …
We shan’t settle in the Russian towns, and we’ll let them go to pieces without intervening. And, above all, no remorse on this subject! We’re absolutely without obligations as far as these people are concerned. To struggle against the hovels, chase away the fleas, provide German teachers, bring out newspapers – very little of that for us! We’ll confine ourselves, perhaps, to setting up a radio transmitter, under our control. For the rest, let them know just enough to understand our highway signs, so that they won’t get themselves run over by our vehicles.
For them the word ‘liberty’ means the right to wash on feast days … There’s only one duty: to Germanize this country by the immigration of Germans and to look upon the natives as Redskins … In this business I shall go straight ahead, cold-bloodedly.


Ten days later he declared:

Nobody will ever snatch the East from us! … We shall soon supply the wheat for all Europe, the coal, the steel, the wood. To exploit the Ukraine properly – that new Indian Empire – we’ll need only peace in the West …
For me the object is to exploit the advantages of continental hegemony … When we are the masters of Europe, we have a dominant position in the world. A hundred and thirty million people in the Reich, ninety in the Ukraine. Add to these the other states of the New Europe and we’ll be 400 millions as compared with the 130 million Americans.
[...]
Source of quote: Alan Bullock, Hitler and Stalin. Parallel Lives 1993 Fontana Press, London, pages 756-758.

Bullock’s translation of the highlighted passage is a rather benevolent one. Hitler’s words were actually the following:
In die russischen Städte gehen wir nicht hinein. Sie müssen vollständig ersterben. Wir brauchen uns da keine Gewissensbisse zu machen […] wir haben überhaupt keine Verpflichtungen den Leuten gegenüber.
Source of quote:

Christian Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde, page 801

My translation:
Into the Russian cities we shall not go. They must die away completely. We need to have no remorse in this respect […] we have no obligations whatsoever towards these people.


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#33

Post by viriato » 19 Nov 2002, 22:46

Roberto wrote:
And what examples of similar aggression by those bad, bad Allies are there, anyway?
"Bad, bad Allies" were not shy of invading countries or territories/dependencies belonging to other countries when they saw "legitimate security concerns". A few examples are:

1-Invasion of Greenland, Iceland and Féroé Islands all belonging to Denmark;

2-Invasion of Iran;

3-Invasion of a number of territories controlled by the French State from 1940 onwards - Syria, Madagascar, Western Africa and Northern Africa and other colonial outposts of France;

4-Dutch and Australian occupation of East Timor prior to the Japanese invasion.

Of course there was a difference of grade between these Allied aggressions when compared with the Axis aggressions. But in substance they were equivalent.

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#34

Post by viriato » 19 Nov 2002, 22:54

I forgot to mention the "legitimate security concerns" argued by the USSR when annexing the Baltic States and Bessarabia and launching an aggresion war against Finland.

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#35

Post by Scott Smith » 19 Nov 2002, 23:11

Roberto, the notion that Hitler inevitably had to execute Barbarossa because he expressed similar geopolitical ideas in Mein Kampf is teleological at best. If anything it may have led him down the primrose path of Providence and blinded him to believing the B.S. from his General Staff experts that this was doable. If you disagree, too bad.

I used the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution as an example of incidents used as pretexts for war. There are many others. The United States is a sovereign nation and needs no pretext whatever for war but it undermines its own Democracy-Capitalist propaganda not to find one. It is struggling with respect to Iraq right now as Saddam has not taken any bait and was not involved with 9/11, AFAIK.

It is especially absurd to think that aggression begins with the nation that actually fires the first shot. The Allied coalition against Germany commanded superior resources and was in a better strategic position than Germany in 1939 and they wanted to keep it that way. It was clearly hostile after March, 1939.

On your question as to why Russian mobilization in 1914 effectively meant a declaration of war, that is because the only way that German contingency plans could meet this threat was by striking immediately against the Entente in the West so that German forces could then be mustered on the Russian Front. The German railway timetables were the "German secret weapon" of the day and gave Germany the advantage of good interior lines of communication. But von Schlieffen and his successor, von Moltke the Younger had miscalculated given their exalted faith in German operational maneuver; violating Belgian neutrality only brought the British cleanly into the war and the encirclement of the French could not be completed for logistical reasons. Marching through Belgium simply took too long. Besides, the German Army soon handily defeated the Russian Steamroller at Tannenberg anyway and showed that the Russian threat was miscalculated to begin with, not the first time that this would happen. The German General Staff pretended to be apolitical but this is only a myth. They were merely incompetent with the political and strategic aspects of military force and emphasized operational doctrines over fundamental intelligence and logistics.

Back to my point, however, the USA has various similar contingency plans which meant de facto nuclear war during the Cold War. Who is the Aggressor, the one who first pushes "the button" or the one pushing the buttons?

It is not for nothing that Kennedy and McNamara required the reading of Tuchman's The Guns of August amongst their courtiers to show how tinderkegs could explode with little provocation. They were trying to avoid this in Vietnam, but they only institutionalized assumptions that were equally fallacious for the next Administration. The Domino Theory (this time from the "Appeasement at Munich") was the justification for the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, not the Gulf of Tonkin Incident.
:)

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#36

Post by Roberto » 19 Nov 2002, 23:35

Scott Smith wrote:Roberto, the notion that Hitler inevitably had to execute Barbarossa because he expressed similar geopolitical ideas in Mein Kampf is teleological at best.
Hitler himself stated the following at a meeting with his generals in 1941:
Man soll heute in der anderen Welt nicht so blöde tun. Die Herren hätten bloß einmal lesen sollen, was ich geschrieben habe, und zwar tausendmal geschrieben habe. Öfter hat kein Mensch erklärt, … was er will, als ich es getan habe.
My translation:
They shouldn’t be so dumbfounded in the other world today. The gentleman should only have read what I wrote, wrote a thousand times. No man ever declared more often … what he wanted than I did.
One of his frank statements in Mein Kampf had been:
Ein Programm, wie ich es vertrete, ist die Formulierung einer Kriegserklärung gegen eine bestehende Ordnung, gegen eine bestehende Weltauffassung überhaupt.
My translation:
A program such as I represent is the formulation of a declaration of war against an established order, against the existing world view overall.


One of the few who read Mein Kampf throroughly was British historian E.C. Ensor. One of his conclusions in 1939 was the following:
Mr. Hitler will try to get rid of the Jews in their entirety and to conduct a war of conquest against Russia.


All citations after: Guido Knopp, Unser Jahrhundert: Deutsche Schicksalstage. C. Bertelsmann Verlag, 1998.

If Smith can show us evidence that the man who strove to carry out the ideas he had set out in Mein Kampf eventually moved away from the one under discussion (I have shown evidence to the contrary), I may accept his above quoted statement.

So instead of giving us long and empty sermons, Smith should try to demonstrate that and when, despite his statements to the contrary that have been quoted, Hitler departed from the idea to conquer "living space" from Russia for the German people.

While he tries to do that, readers may have a look at the assessment of German historian Hermann Graml.
Operation Barbarossa

On 22 June 1941 153 divisions of the Wehrmacht of National Socialist Germany – together with units of the armies of allied states like Finland, Romania and Hungary – crossed the borders of the Soviet Union. Since the Second World War this operation, prepared under the code name “Barbarossa”, was unanimously considered by research on contemporary history as the classic example of a war of aggression. Only a secondary question was controversially discussed: Did the “Führer” of the Third Reich in his decision to attack principally intend to serve the goal contained in his ideology, i.e. the goal, insistently propagated since “Mein Kampf”, to conquer “living space in the East” for the German nation and for a German world empire? Or was the motivation stronger that resulted for him when, after the victorious campaigns in eastern, northern and western Europe, he was faced with the fact that the still unbeaten Great Britain did not think of acknowledging his domination of the European continent, and therefrom derived the conclusion that he must deprive the British government of the hope on its last “continental blessing” by conquering Russia?
Recently, however, the assertion has come up that Hitler’s attack barely anticipated a preventive war by Stalin, and some in the meantime go as far as maintaining that Hitler’s attack was a preventive strike not only objectively but also intended to be one by the “Führer”. The last to come up with this was “Victor Suvorov”. This pseudonym allegedly stands for a Soviet officer – or a group of officers – who until the beginning of the 1980s, until he (they) went over to the West, worked for the military secret service of the USSR. In his book ‘The Icebreaker. Hitler in Stalin’s Calculus’ “Suvorov” even gives the date of Stalin’s assault: 6 July 1941. The fact that reviewers in the German press manifested themselves impressed by the ‘Icebreaker’, however, has to do only with the widespread demand for apologetic literature and not at all with the quality of the writing. For a closer look reveals that “Suvorov” cannot provide plausible arguments let alone documentary evidence in support of his theses. This is not surprising given that in the encirclement battles of 1941 the German troops, although the staffs of armies and army groups fell into their hands, did not capture a single document that would indicate plans by Stalin for a preventive war, and such are lacking to this day. All that “Suvorov” does is to arbitrarily declare the dislocation of the Red Army in the spring of 1941 to have been a marching-up for a preventive strike, and the few citations from memoirs of Soviet military men that he tries to support this act of arbitrariness with are revealed by examination as shameless forgeries of the original texts. The political agenda of such pamphlets, i.e. the warning against a basic aggressiveness of Soviet foreign policy, is obvious.
In fact Hitler and the leading circles of the Third Reich grasped the idea of soon attacking Russia still during the campaign in France, as Chief of General Staff Franz Halder recorded in his diary. As long as they hoped they could count on the British giving in after the conquest of Western Europe, that “Führer” and his National Socialist minions thought of the war for “living space” required by National Socialist ideology, while for instance the military considered the march into the Baltics and the Ukraine to be tempting because their inherited German-national imperialism reawakened when they saw the triumph in the West in sight.
As early as 21 July 1940 Hitler ordered to prepare the attack on the Soviet Union, having the autumn of 1940 in mind as the time. After his military advisers had convinced him that the marching-up would take considerably longer and that additional forces were required, Hitler on 31 July gave the order to direct the planning towards an attack in the spring of 1941. On 18 December 1940 there followed Directive Number 21 with the final setting of “Operation Barbarossa”. The date was 15 May 1941, which then had to be exceeded by several weeks due to the perceived need of conquering Yugoslavia and assisting the Italian ally in Greece. Hitler’s ideological motivation was there as before, though now ever more overlaid by the argument that Great Britain must be deprived of the USSR as a potential ally. Both were independent of recognized or even suspected Soviet behavior. Not for an instant did Hitler believe that the Soviet Union – internally unstable and depending on an army without the power required for an offensive against a modern enemy, for it was equipped with qualitatively insufficient weapons and had lost a high percentage of its officer corps through Stalin’s purges of 1937-1939 – was able to carry out an attack on the German Reich, especially after the latter’s successes in Poland, Norway, Western Europe and most recently in the Balkans.
Stalin was of the same opinion, but until the spring of 1941 he convinced himself that Hitler would not be so foolish as to attack Russia, which after all was strong in the defensive, as long as Great Britain was still unbeaten. Warnings from London about the German intentions of attack he for a long time considered to be attempts to induce him to hostile actions against Germany in order to take the pressure off Great Britain. Only in April and May 1941, when the German marching-up had taken a dimension that could no longer be interpreted as a basis for political pressure maneuvers, there began unsystematic reactions including a transfer of troops from the eastern parts of the Union to the western regions, and only from mid-June onward, after Churchill had been able to provide an exact image of the German marching-up and the German planning on hand of decoded German radio messages, Stalin ordered radical defensive measures, which due to the now inevitable hectic did more harm than good, however, and contributed to the heavy Soviet defeats in the first weeks of the war.
I translated the above from an article by Hermann Graml published in Wolfgang Benz et al, Legenden, Lügen, Vorurteile, 12th edition 2002 by dtv Munich, pages 193 and following.

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#37

Post by ISU-152 » 21 Nov 2002, 17:40

Jesus, the stuff those pro-nazi post here makes me wonder about the sanity of humankind. In 30 years I will read that the soviets started the whole war and if was "valiant and brave" SS dude in neat uniforms who saved the world.

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#38

Post by Roberto » 21 Nov 2002, 19:29

ISU-152 wrote:Jesus, the stuff those pro-nazi post here makes me wonder about the sanity of humankind. In 30 years I will read that the soviets started the whole war and if was "valiant and brave" SS dude in neat uniforms who saved the world.
You don't have to wait that long:
Keep the Faith fellow revisionists. The Nazis and the SS were the good guys--but the anti-Nazis and the anti-revisionists dare not admit it for fear of losing their fabulous, ill gotten gains from the war.
“Hoaxbuster” Friedrich Paul Berg on the extinct Codoh discussion forum.
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCForumID9/143.html#10

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#39

Post by Scott Smith » 21 Nov 2002, 20:42

Roberto wrote:
ISU-152 wrote:Jesus, the stuff those pro-nazi post here makes me wonder about the sanity of humankind. In 30 years I will read that the soviets started the whole war and if was "valiant and brave" SS dude in neat uniforms who saved the world.
You don't have to wait that long:
Keep the Faith fellow revisionists. The Nazis and the SS were the good guys--but the anti-Nazis and the anti-revisionists dare not admit it for fear of losing their fabulous, ill gotten gains from the war.
“Hoaxbuster” Friedrich Paul Berg on the extinct Codoh discussion forum.
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCForumID9/143.html#10
Not sure about your point, Roberto, since the Hoaxbuster doesn't post here. But since you mentioned him, here is a listing of his essays and so forth, some of which are very interesting--especially the one about the problem of the diesel gaschambers.
:wink:

CLICK! Friedrich Paul Berg

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#40

Post by Roberto » 21 Nov 2002, 21:58

Scott Smith wrote:
Roberto wrote:
ISU-152 wrote:Jesus, the stuff those pro-nazi post here makes me wonder about the sanity of humankind. In 30 years I will read that the soviets started the whole war and if was "valiant and brave" SS dude in neat uniforms who saved the world.
You don't have to wait that long:
Keep the Faith fellow revisionists. The Nazis and the SS were the good guys--but the anti-Nazis and the anti-revisionists dare not admit it for fear of losing their fabulous, ill gotten gains from the war.
“Hoaxbuster” Friedrich Paul Berg on the extinct Codoh discussion forum.
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCForumID9/143.html#10
Not sure about your point, Roberto, since the Hoaxbuster doesn't post here. But since you mentioned him, here is a listing of his essays and so forth, some of which are very interesting--especially the one about the problem of the diesel gaschambers.
:wink:

CLICK! Friedrich Paul Berg
ISU,

Meet Scott Smith, Berg's faithful disciple and admirer.

He's shooting some of his good old bull because he's raving mad at my having committed the sacrilege of mentioning his guru.

And he hasn't yet done his homework, which was to provide evidence that his beloved Führer at a given time gave up the idea of obtaining "living space" for the German people at the expense of Russia, as he obviously believes.

I'm sure the two of you will get along nicely.

Cheers,

Roberto

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#41

Post by Marcus » 21 Nov 2002, 23:38

Let's not turn this into yet another diesel thread, please!

/Marcus

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#42

Post by michael mills » 22 Nov 2002, 09:17

Roberto wrote:
As I see it, a pre-emptive attack is one that is staged with the intention of anticipating an enemy aggression that is held to be imminent.

Mills' definition of the concept seems to be somewhat more generous, at least when it comes to Nazi Germany.

It should become clear from the above quotes, however, that Hitler's attack on the Soviet Union was not pre-emptive even by Mills' rather generous definition of the term.
May I remind you, my esteemed and valued colleague, that it was the British historian Geoffrey Roberts (whose book you have manifestly not read) who used the expression "a pre-emptive German strike on the USSR", and set the possibility of such a strike in the context of a confrontation over the Balkans.

I then showed that Soviet penetration into the Balkans was a provocation to Germany, and therefore the eventual German attack could be seen as a "pre-emptive strike", in the sense that Roberts used the term.

I might also point out a sentence used by Overy, in the passage quoted by you, that was not emphasised by you, even though it immediately preceded one of your bolded sections. It reads:
But Hitler’s ideas, which had at first been uncertain, hardened over the course of the month, as a stream of intelligence information came in showing how Soviet diplomats were now pushing into the Balkans in their efforts to spread Soviet influence. When Hitler’s Operations Chief, General Alfred Jodl, called together his senior colleagues on July 29, he had the most startling news. After making sure that every door and window in the conference room aboard a specially converted train was tightly sealed, he announced that Hitler had decided to rid the world ‘once and for all’ of the Soviet menace by a surprise attack scheduled for May 1941.
As you will see, my dear Roberto, the very passage from Overy quoted by you demonstrates that Hitler's decision to start planning for an attack on the Soviet Union in May 1941 was triggered off by information about the spread of Soviet influence in the Balkans, or attempts to that end. The relationship between the spread of Soviet influence in the Balkans and Hitler's decision, demonstrated by Overy, exactly fits the scenario that Geoffrey Roberts describes as "provoking a pre-emptive German strike on the USSR".

By the way, my scaly friend, I note that, while you are eager to quote Overy in relation to the German attack on the Soviet Uniom, you have remained unwontedly silent in the face of the material from Overy, quoted by me in another thread, which demonstrated that the outbreak of war in September 1939 was the result of decisions by Britain and France, not of Germany.

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#43

Post by michael mills » 22 Nov 2002, 10:12

Roberto wrote:
Aggression it was.

But not against Germany, in regard to whom it was in accordance with the Nazi-Soviet non-aggression pact.




My dear Pendragon, I think you are confusing two historical events here.

The first of these was the Soviet Union's heavying of the Baltic States and Finland in October 1939 to sign non-aggression traties and allow it to establish military bases on their territory. That action was in accordance with the secret protocol to the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact of 23 August 1939, and the subsequent Borders and Friendship Treaty of 28 September. For that reason, the Soviet action was not opposed by Germany.

The three Baltic States submitted to Soviet pressure and allowed the stationing of small Soviet garrisons on their territory. Finland however refused to allow a Soviet base at Hangoe, which led to the Winter War.

The second event was the Soviet invasion in force of the Baltic states in June 1940, the incorporation of those states into the Soviet Union through fraudulent elections, and the unleashing of a reign of terror against opposition.

That move was a reaction to German victory in the West. It was not agreed with Germany, and greatly exceeded what Germany had agreed to in 1939. The Soviet occupation of the Baltic states was an aggressive move designed to improve its military position vis-a-vis Germany, by stationing massive forces directly on the German border; it was therefore a hostile move from the German point of view.

By committing an act of aggression against states friendly to Germany, the Soviet Union was in effect committing aggression against Germany itself.

At the same time as the invasion of the Baltic states, the Soviet Union made threatening moves against Finland. It was only the stationing of German troops in that country that averted a resumption of the Soviet-Finnish war at that time. Indeed, one of Molotov's demands at the Berlin meeting in November 1940 was the removal of German troops from Finland.

Roberto also wrote:
Maybe so, but how would that make Hitler's attack on the Soviet Union look like anything better than naked, unprovoked aggression ?
What have you got against nudism, Draco? Why is naked aggression worse than aggression wearing trousers?

Mind you, I do grant that the sight of thousands of naked German soldiers advancing toward one would be rather daunting, particularly if they were all dosed up on Viagra!

"Nicht schiessen, Kamerad! The rifle I mean".

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#44

Post by michael mills » 22 Nov 2002, 10:38

Roberto challenged:
What we would now need is evidence that and when Hitler gave up this "toying".

Could Smith please provide such evidence?

Note: "I think that ..." or "I don't think that ..." will not be accepted as evidence.
Geoffrey Roberts writes on page 173:
A further, less tangible factor must be taken into account when assessing the effects of what Volkogonov calls Stalin's and Molotov's whitewash of Nazi Germany: its impact on Hitler's perception of the USSR. For a period in 1939-1940 Hitler and Ribbentrop held the view that the Bolshevik regime was being subsumed by a modern, state form of Russian nationalism. On this basis Hitler was able seriously to contemplate the possibility of a long-term alliance with Soviet Russia (providing Moscow accepted German hegemony). It was only when the clash between German and Soviet interests in the Balkans developed in 1940-41 that Hitler reverted to his previous determination to mount an anti-Bolshevik crusade for 'living space' in the east.
In a footnote to the above, Roberts writes:
On Hitler and Ribbentrop's changing view toward Soviet Russia see W. Carr, Poland to Pearl Harbour (London: Edward Arnold, 1985), pp. 112-16.
I trust, Pendragon, that the above quote will be sufficient to soothe your inflamed haemorrhoids. I suspect, though, that you will dream up yet another ingenious excuse for rejecting it as proof of what Scott Smith wrote in relation to Hitler's changing priorities.

Might I suggest that you do something really radical: read a book. Start with Geoffrey Roberts' book, which I have been quoting, and then move on to the Carr book mentioned above. I have not read the latter, but I have put it on my reading list, and I dare say I will have consulted it well before you have moved beyond recycling the same old load of tired, worn-out quotations.

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Roberto
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#45

Post by Roberto » 22 Nov 2002, 14:10

michael mills wrote:Roberto wrote:
As I see it, a pre-emptive attack is one that is staged with the intention of anticipating an enemy aggression that is held to be imminent.

Mills' definition of the concept seems to be somewhat more generous, at least when it comes to Nazi Germany.

It should become clear from the above quotes, however, that Hitler's attack on the Soviet Union was not pre-emptive even by Mills' rather generous definition of the term.
May I remind you, my esteemed and valued colleague, that it was the British historian Geoffrey Roberts (whose book you have manifestly not read) who used the expression "a pre-emptive German strike on the USSR", and set the possibility of such a strike in the context of a confrontation over the Balkans.
And so ?

The best Mills can derive therefrom is that Roberts has a generous understanding of “pre-emptive strike” matching his own.
michael mills wrote:I then showed that Soviet penetration into the Balkans was a provocation to Germany, and therefore the eventual German attack could be seen as a "pre-emptive strike", in the sense that Roberts used the term.
As I said, a very generous understanding of what “pre-emptive strike” means. Apart from the fact that the Soviet “provocation” was neither the sole nor the primordial motivation of Hitler’s aggression.
michael mills wrote:I might also point out a sentence used by Overy, in the passage quoted by you, that was not emphasised by you, even though it immediately preceded one of your bolded sections. It reads:
But Hitler’s ideas, which had at first been uncertain, hardened over the course of the month, as a stream of intelligence information came in showing how Soviet diplomats were now pushing into the Balkans in their efforts to spread Soviet influence. When Hitler’s Operations Chief, General Alfred Jodl, called together his senior colleagues on July 29, he had the most startling news. After making sure that every door and window in the conference room aboard a specially converted train was tightly sealed, he announced that Hitler had decided to rid the world ‘once and for all’ of the Soviet menace by a surprise attack scheduled for May 1941.
As you will see, my dear Roberto, the very passage from Overy quoted by you demonstrates that Hitler's decision to start planning for an attack on the Soviet Union in May 1941 was triggered off by information about the spread of Soviet influence in the Balkans, or attempts to that end.
Which doesn’t mean that what “triggered off” the decision was its sole or even its primordial motivation, as pointed out by Overy thereafter:
Richard Overy wrote:There can be no doubt that practical strategic issues did push Hitler towards the most radical of military solutions. But a great war in the East had always been part of his thinking. Here was the real stuff of Lebensraum – living space. Hitler’s plans assumed fantastic proportions. By August he had decided to seize the whole vast area stretching from Archangel to Astrakhan (the ‘A-A Line’) and to populate it with fortified garrison cities, keeping the population under the permanent control of the master race, while a rump Asian state beyond the Urals, the Slavlands, would accommodate the rest of the Soviet people. Planning moved forward on this basis. By the spring of 1941 comprehensive programmes for the racial, political and economic exploitation of the new empire had been drawn up. ‘Russia’, Hitler is reported as saying, ‘will be our India!’.
And then there were the statements about the need to eliminate Russia as a support to Britain quoted by Shirer, remember?
Mills wrote:The relationship between the spread of Soviet influence in the Balkans and Hitler's decision, demonstrated by Overy, exactly fits the scenario that Geoffrey Roberts describes as "provoking a pre-emptive German strike on the USSR".
It sure does – if you ignore the ideological component and the other geo-strategic component of Hitler’s decision.
michael mills wrote:By the way, my scaly friend, I note that, while you are eager to quote Overy in relation to the German attack on the Soviet Uniom, you have remained unwontedly silent in the face of the material from Overy, quoted by me in another thread, which demonstrated that the outbreak of war in September 1939 was the result of decisions by Britain and France, not of Germany.
And what is that supposed to tell us, other than my being more interested in certain subjects than in others?

But if Mills desires to be kicked about on that other thread as well, he may point out the link to me, so I don’t have to go searching for it.

Who said that the outbreak of war in September 1939 was not the result of decisions by Britain and France, by the way?

I’m well aware that Adolf counted on Britain and France letting him take apart Poland without interfering and was set aback by the news of their declaration of war – which wasn’t followed up by any action, unfortunately.

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