Casualties at Budapest

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Imad
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Casualties at Budapest

#1

Post by Imad » 20 Sep 2006, 05:28

Hello
I am currently reading a book called "The Siege of Budapest - 100 Days in WW2" by Kristian Ungvary and the author cites the fatal casualties in the above mentioned battle in 1944 as 38,000 German and Hungarian and 80,000 Soviet, besides 38,000 civilian fatalities.
Can these stats be confirmed by a different source? I do not want to rely on Wikipedia for obvious reasons.
Thanks in advance

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Alex Yeliseenko
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#2

Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 20 Sep 2006, 08:01

Hi,

Soviet losses for Budapest battle - 320000 (KIA - 80000) and 1766 tank and SPG destroyed and domaged

Soviet estimate german losses - 50000 KIA

regards,

Alex.


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Victor
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#3

Post by Victor » 20 Sep 2006, 10:17

It should be noted that the Soviet casualties are counted for the entire operation (including the fighting on the city's approaches), not just the siege itself.

Alex, does the Soviet number also include the Romanian casulaties?

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Alex Yeliseenko
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#4

Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 20 Sep 2006, 15:15

Victor wrote:It should be noted that the Soviet casualties are counted for the entire operation (including the fighting on the city's approaches), not just the siege itself.

Alex, does the Soviet number also include the Romanian casulaties?
Hi!
The Budapest strategic operation. 10/29/1944 - 02/13/1945.
Soviet losses - 320082 (KIA and MIA - 80026. MIA - it is not enough. WIA - 240056)
In fights in city of loss were less. Probably, they were less, than at Germans and Hungarians.

The brigade of sea infantry of the Danube military flotilla took part in operation on capture Budapest. Its losses - 112 KIA and MIA.

Aggregate number of the Soviet armies to Budapest operations - 719500 soldier and officers.

Average speed of the Soviet approach - 2,5 - 4 kilometers day.

I think losses the Romanian are not considered.

Losses small arms - 135,1 thousand, tanks and SPG - 1766, artillery gun and mortar - 4127, warplanes - 293.


Calculation of the Soviet losses in tanks - a problem very complex. It is very confused theme. The Soviet system of the account of losses in tanks strongly differs from German system. It is not necessary to forget about it.

Best regards,

Alex. Siberia.

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#5

Post by mars » 20 Sep 2006, 18:35

Actually the majority of the Red army losses occured OUTSIDE of Budapest, in his book,Mr Ungvary compared the German and Hungary losses INSIDE TH Budapest to the ENTIRE losses of Red army in the Hungary compaign.

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Imad
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#6

Post by Imad » 20 Sep 2006, 22:45

mars wrote:Actually the majority of the Red army losses occured OUTSIDE of Budapest, in his book,Mr Ungvary compared the German and Hungary losses INSIDE TH Budapest to the ENTIRE losses of Red army in the Hungary compaign.
So what would be an accurate estimate of Russian losses inside Budapest itself?

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#7

Post by mars » 20 Sep 2006, 23:16

imad wrote:
mars wrote:Actually the majority of the Red army losses occured OUTSIDE of Budapest, in his book,Mr Ungvary compared the German and Hungary losses INSIDE TH Budapest to the ENTIRE losses of Red army in the Hungary compaign.
So what would be an accurate estimate of Russian losses inside Budapest itself?
the most of serious battles occured outside of Budetpest, when Red army fought their way to reach the Budetpest and repelled German's repeatly effort to relieve the city, the strengh of Soviet and Rumania army commited to the siege of the Budetpest city did not exceed 150,000, so that it was impossilbe for Soviet alone lost 80,000 men killed in the fight for the city. I do not know the actually number of soviet losses for the combat in the Budetpest, as far as I know, Russian did not record their losses for this part of battle seperately from the entire Hungary campaign, which started on Oct 29 1944 and ended on Feb 13 1945

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Qvist
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#8

Post by Qvist » 21 Sep 2006, 00:36

Sorry Mars, but that is not correct. 2nd Ukrainian Front started the Budapest operation with 712,000 men on 29 October, and that does not include 3rd Ukrainian Front which joined the fray in mid-December. Between them, these two formations suffered 320,000 casulaties up to 13 February, of whom roughly 80,000 were killed or missing. As the losses are fairly equally divided between the two Fronts, it seems unlikely that 3UF brought much fewer men than 2UF into battle. Hence, it would appear that a figure of 150,000 might be as much as ten times too low. This refers of course not just to the fighting in the city, but also to the offensive operations that encircled it, and the subsequent fighting against German7Hungarian relief attempts. Source, Krivosheev.


This is probably what you refer to as the whole Hungary campaign, but that is not correct - it encompasses just the campaign in central Hungary - in essence, the encirclement of Budapest, the siege and the defence against relief attempts. It was preceded by the capture of Eastern Hungary generally and the Debrecen operation specifically in October, and followed by the Lake balaton defensive operation in March. Hence, this operation, which incidentally is known in Soviet literature as the Budapest Strategic Offensive Operation, is directly defined by the Budapest battle, if not only by the siege, and cannot be accurately represented as the whole battle for Hungary.

cheers

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Qvist
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#9

Post by Qvist » 21 Sep 2006, 01:07

Hello Alex

Sorry, seems I have repeated much information already given above.
Aggregate number of the Soviet armies to Budapest operations - 719500 soldier and officers.

Average speed of the Soviet approach - 2,5 - 4 kilometers day.

I think losses the Romanian are not considered.

Losses small arms - 135,1 thousand, tanks and SPG - 1766, artillery gun and mortar - 4127, warplanes - 293.
The strength figure is just for 2UF at the start of the operation, and is hence pretty useless as a measure of RKKA strength deployed for the operation. No Romanian strength or losses is included, I can confirm.

Calculation of the Soviet losses in tanks - a problem very complex. It is very confused theme. The Soviet system of the account of losses in tanks strongly differs from German system. It is not necessary to forget about it.
Well, Krivosheev¨s loss figures seen against his annual figures seem pretty consistent to me, and there is no doubt that the latter do not include damaged vehicles put back into action. I was not aware of any major differences in Soviet and German accounting in this field, except that the RKKA supposedly included badly damaged machines that was returned to factory for major repairs. But these were by all accounts not very numerous at all in either army at this stage of the war. Would like to hear more about this though.

cheers

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#10

Post by mars » 21 Sep 2006, 01:26

Qvist wrote:Sorry Mars, but that is not correct. 2nd Ukrainian Front started the Budapest operation with 712,000 men on 29 October, and that does not include 3rd Ukrainian Front which joined the fray in mid-December. Between them, these two formations suffered 320,000 casulaties up to 13 February, of whom roughly 80,000 were killed or missing. As the losses are fairly equally divided between the two Fronts, it seems unlikely that 3UF brought much fewer men than 2UF into battle. Hence, it would appear that a figure of 150,000 might be as much as ten times too low. This refers of course not just to the fighting in the city, but also to the offensive operations that encircled it, and the subsequent fighting against German7Hungarian relief attempts. Source, Krivosheev.


This is probably what you refer to as the whole Hungary campaign, but that is not correct - it encompasses just the campaign in central Hungary - in essence, the encirclement of Budapest, the siege and the defence against relief attempts. It was preceded by the capture of Eastern Hungary generally and the Debrecen operation specifically in October, and followed by the Lake balaton defensive operation in March. Hence, this operation, which incidentally is known in Soviet literature as the Budapest Strategic Offensive Operation, is directly defined by the Budapest battle, if not only by the siege, and cannot be accurately represented as the whole battle for Hungary.

cheers
Quist, i may wrong, but I believe the Soviet casualities included both 2nd and 3rd Ukrainian Front

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Qvist
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#11

Post by Qvist » 21 Sep 2006, 01:29

Actually the majority of the Red army losses occured OUTSIDE of Budapest, in his book,Mr Ungvary compared the German and Hungary losses INSIDE TH Budapest to the ENTIRE losses of Red army in the Hungary compaign.
Where do you find such a comparison? In the epilogue, Ungvary gives the following comparison of losses between 3 November and 11 February:

RKKA, siege: 44000 KIA, 130000 WIA, 2000 MIA - 176000
7. Romanian Corps: 11000 KIA, 12000 WIA, 1000 MIA - 24000
RKKA losses against Konrad: 15000 KIA, 60000 WIA, 5100 MIA - 80000
In all, RKKA and Romanian: 70000 KIA, 202000 WIA, 8000 MIA - 280000

German and Hungarian losses in Budapest: 40000 KIA, 62000 MIA including the captured wounded - 102000
During Konrad: 8000 KIA, 26000 WIA, 1000 MIA - 35000
In all, 48000 KIA, 26000 WIA, 51000 MIA - 125000

Looks to me though as if there is an axis addition mistake in the total - surely the missing ought to be 63000, not 51000 - if so, the total should be 136000.

According to the footnotes, the siege and Konrad losses represent some 55 and 25 per cent respectively of the overall losses of the Soviet formations during the period, hence roughly 80 per cent of the overall losses of 2 and 3UF are included. The Romanian figures are estimated, based partly on a hungarian work and partlz on a Romanian post-war study, neither of whom I know. Soviet MIA for Konrad based on German capture figures. German Konrad figure pertains to Heeresgruppe Balck in its entirety for the period 24 December - 10 February.

cheers

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#12

Post by Qvist » 21 Sep 2006, 01:38

Quist, i may wrong, but I believe the Soviet casualities included both 2nd and 3rd Ukrainian Front

You are not wrong, that is of course correct. Anything would be very strange, given that 3UF plazed a key role in the encirclement of the city, and then formed the outer siege ring, defending against Konrad.

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#13

Post by mars » 21 Sep 2006, 01:43

Qvist wrote:
Actually the majority of the Red army losses occured OUTSIDE of Budapest, in his book,Mr Ungvary compared the German and Hungary losses INSIDE TH Budapest to the ENTIRE losses of Red army in the Hungary compaign.
Where do you find such a comparison? In the epilogue, Ungvary gives the following comparison of losses between 3 November and 11 February:

RKKA, siege: 44000 KIA, 130000 WIA, 2000 MIA - 176000
7. Romanian Corps: 11000 KIA, 12000 WIA, 1000 MIA - 24000
RKKA losses against Konrad: 15000 KIA, 60000 WIA, 5100 MIA - 80000
In all, RKKA and Romanian: 70000 KIA, 202000 WIA, 8000 MIA - 280000

German and Hungarian losses in Budapest: 40000 KIA, 62000 MIA including the captured wounded - 102000
During Konrad: 8000 KIA, 26000 WIA, 1000 MIA - 35000
In all, 48000 KIA, 26000 WIA, 51000 MIA - 125000

Looks to me though as if there is an axis addition mistake in the total - surely the missing ought to be 63000, not 51000 - if so, the total should be 136000.

According to the footnotes, the siege and Konrad losses represent some 55 and 25 per cent respectively of the overall losses of the Soviet formations during the period, hence roughly 80 per cent of the overall losses of 2 and 3UF are included. The Romanian figures are estimated, based partly on a hungarian work and partlz on a Romanian post-war study, neither of whom I know. Soviet MIA for Konrad based on German capture figures. German Konrad figure pertains to Heeresgruppe Balck in its entirety for the period 24 December - 10 February.

cheers
Quist, the Soviet and Rumania force directly involved into the battle of Budapest city were
Soviet:30th Guard rifle Corps,18th Guard Rifle Corps, 23nd tank Corps,10th Guard rifle corps,37th and 23nd Rifle Corps
Rumania: 7th infantry Corps
some of above units such as 23nd Tank Cops were withdraw from city and commited into battle outside the city from time to time, the totall Soviet and Rumania force were less than 150,000, if only German managed to inflict a 176000 casualites to them, those poor Russian would lost the battle of Budapest city !
Quist, I read Ungvary's book long time ago, I have to say it did not impress me, the only thing worth my money in this book were those related to Hungary army, some were actually interesting ! Mr Ungvary did not have anything except very common knowledge related to either German, Soviet or Rumania army.

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Imad
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#14

Post by Imad » 21 Sep 2006, 04:26

What are the sources for saying Soviet and Romanian forces totalled less than 150,000?

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#15

Post by mars » 21 Sep 2006, 04:42

imad, the average strength of a Red army division at Hungary were 5000-6000 men, there were about 15 Soviet Rifle divisions directly involved into the fight in the city, and then you added the strength of tank, artilley and engineers units, there were around 150,000 men

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