I think what Alex means are heavily damaged tanks, not lightly. That is how I interpret his use of the word 'hard'. This could make sense, if such tanks were sent back to the factory for rebuilding. If they are taken off the strength list as a write-off (meaning not repairable by field army/depot means), and shipped back, they could well be counted as new production, since they would take a production slot in the factory, and be issued as new to the accepting institution following their rebuild.
In any case, that is how I read it. It would be helpful for Alex to clarify.
All the best
Andreas
Casualties at Budapest
Hi Andreas,
Yes, I assume so too. More specifically, it is certainly possible - perhaps even likely - that factory-repaired tanks are included in Krivosheev's figures, which are for deliveries, not production. The point is more the extent of the phenomenonen, and to which extent it impacts on the relevance of Krivosheev's tank loss figures. The production figures quoted in f.e. Zaloga/Ness are roughly 10,000 lower than the total of Krivosheev's received figures - 76,827 against 86,100. Partly that may be accounted for by tanks produced before 1 July being delivered later, though there must of course also on the other side have been tanks produced in 1945 but not received before the war's end, and the timescope for the production figures are slightly longer (until 1 July 1945). If we assume that the whole discrepancy is due to repaired tanks, that would mean that roughly 9% of Soviet tank losses (not including damaged machines repaired locally) fell into this category. What is more, if we accept the hypothesis that the discrepancy is due to this, it also follows that they must have been included on the loss side - due to the internal consistency of the figures. If correct, this still leaves quoted Soviet losses broadly comparable to German write-off losses in my opinion. It is certainly something to bear in mind, but hardly something that prevents meaningful comparison.
It can also be argued in my opinion that it is appropriate to include tanks as heavily damaged as this in loss figures rather than consider them temporary losses. It is in principle a problem that this was apparently not done in German reporting practice, but by all accounts this was a much more limited phenomenon there than on the soviet side, hence the impact of that is fairly limited. I would however certainly agree with Alex that more research into this would be very welcome. It seems to me unlikely to have any very major impact on the comparability of figures though.
cheers
Yes, I assume so too. More specifically, it is certainly possible - perhaps even likely - that factory-repaired tanks are included in Krivosheev's figures, which are for deliveries, not production. The point is more the extent of the phenomenonen, and to which extent it impacts on the relevance of Krivosheev's tank loss figures. The production figures quoted in f.e. Zaloga/Ness are roughly 10,000 lower than the total of Krivosheev's received figures - 76,827 against 86,100. Partly that may be accounted for by tanks produced before 1 July being delivered later, though there must of course also on the other side have been tanks produced in 1945 but not received before the war's end, and the timescope for the production figures are slightly longer (until 1 July 1945). If we assume that the whole discrepancy is due to repaired tanks, that would mean that roughly 9% of Soviet tank losses (not including damaged machines repaired locally) fell into this category. What is more, if we accept the hypothesis that the discrepancy is due to this, it also follows that they must have been included on the loss side - due to the internal consistency of the figures. If correct, this still leaves quoted Soviet losses broadly comparable to German write-off losses in my opinion. It is certainly something to bear in mind, but hardly something that prevents meaningful comparison.
It can also be argued in my opinion that it is appropriate to include tanks as heavily damaged as this in loss figures rather than consider them temporary losses. It is in principle a problem that this was apparently not done in German reporting practice, but by all accounts this was a much more limited phenomenon there than on the soviet side, hence the impact of that is fairly limited. I would however certainly agree with Alex that more research into this would be very welcome. It seems to me unlikely to have any very major impact on the comparability of figures though.
cheers
Well, except that Krivosheev has a lot more credibility then those guys have in that matter.imad wrote:Michate has a point about Krivosheev's figures being on the low side. I remember his figures for the Battle of Berlin being substantially lower than the 100,000 fatalities quoted by Ryan, Hastings and other authors. IIRC he quoted 78,000 dead and wounded on the Russian side.
Actually I did not want to imply the Krivosheev figures being on the low side, and I am by far not in any position to decide on the matter.Michate has a point about Krivosheev's figures being on the low side. I remember his figures for the Battle of Berlin being substantially lower than the 100,000 fatalities quoted by Ryan, Hastings and other authors. IIRC he quoted 78,000 dead and wounded on the Russian side.
What I had in mind is that for the few cases where other reliable information on Soviet tank losses exists, such as for the Kursk operation, the loss figures from Krivosheev seems not to be exaggerated.
IMHO the discrepancy would rather be caused by inclusion of Lend-Lease tanks accepted by the Red Army into the Krivosheev figures.The production figures quoted in f.e. Zaloga/Ness are roughly 10,000 lower than the total of Krivosheev's received figures - 76,827 against 86,100. Partly that may be accounted for by tanks produced before 1 July being delivered later, though there must of course also on the other side have been tanks produced in 1945 but not received before the war's end, and the timescope for the production figures are slightly longer (until 1 July 1945). If we assume that the whole discrepancy is due to repaired tanks, that would mean that roughly 9% of Soviet tank losses (not including damaged machines repaired locally) fell into this category. What is more, if we accept the hypothesis that the discrepancy is due to this, it also follows that they must have been included on the loss side - due to the internal consistency of the figures. If correct, this still leaves quoted Soviet losses broadly comparable to German write-off losses in my opinion. It is certainly something to bear in mind, but hardly something that prevents meaningful comparison.
Sorry, imad, but this is the figures of soviet irrevocable (dead and missing) losses in Berlin operation. I should note that this doesn't include soldiers who died due to the wounds and deseases in hospitals. The figure of 100000 soldiers lost irrevocably on the territory of the modern Germany is often quoted, and I believe that was the source of the data of the authors that you have mentioned. But to use this figure as the soviet losses in the batlle of Berlin is incorrect because the battle actions occured on the territory west of Oder before the Berlin operation and after it.imad wrote:IIRC he quoted 78,000 dead and wounded on the Russian side.
I also find worth to point out that casuality figures for operations in Krivosheev's book always include nonbatlle casualities. This circumstance often is not taken into acount.
Last edited by Art on 27 Sep 2006, 18:10, edited 1 time in total.
The text in Russian
ôîíä. 240, îïèñü, 2779, äåëî 1858, ëèñò 165-169. Ïîäëèííèê.
ÐÀ. ÂÎÂ. Òîì 14 – 3(2). Ñ. 369-370.
The text in English
fund 240, inventory 2779, file 1858, sheet 165-169. The original.
RA. GPW. vol 14 – 3 (2). S. 369-370.
ÖÀÌÎ ÐÔ.Âíåî÷åðåäíîå áîåâîå äîíåñåíèå êîìàíäîâàíèÿ 2-ãî Óêðàèíñêîãî ôðîíòà Âåðõîâíîìó Ãëàâíîêîìàíäóþùåìó îá îâëàäåíèè ãîðîäîì Áóäàïåøò
13 ôåâðàëÿ 1945 ãîäà
Äîíîøó: âîéñêà ëåâîãî êðûëà ôðîíòà, ïðîðâàâ ðÿä ñèëüíî óêðåïëåííûé îáîðîíèòåëüíûõ ðóáåæåé êàê íà ïîäñòóïàõ, òàê è â íóòðèè ãîðîäà Áóäàïåøòà, â ðåçóëüòàòå ìíîãîäíåâíûõ îæåñòî÷¸ííûõ óëè÷íûõ áîåâ, øòóðìîì îâëàäåâàÿ êàæäûì çäàíèåì è êâàðòàëîì, ê 10 ÷àñàì 13 ôåâðàëÿ ñåãî ãîäà, ðàçãðîìèëè îêðóæ¸ííóþ ãðóïïèðîâêó ïðîòèâíèêà…, ïîëíîñòüþ îâëàäåëè ñòîëèöåé Âåíãðèè ãîðîäîì Áóäàïåøò – âàæíåéøèì óçëîì æåëåçíûõ è øîññåéíûõ äîðîã Åâðîïû, êðóïíåéøèì ïîðòîì íà Äóíàå è ãëàâíûì öåíòðîì ïðîìûøëåííîñòè Âåíãðèè.
Ïðîðâàâøàÿñÿ ãðóïïà ïðîòèâíèêà äî 7000 ÷åëîâåê óñïåøíî óíè÷òîæàåòñÿ â ëåñàõ ñåâåðî-çàïàäíåå ãîðîäà Áóäàïåøòà.
Çà ïåðèîä áîåâ ïî îâëàäåíèþ ãîðîäà Áóäàïåøò âîñêàìè ôðîíòà èç ÷èñëà îêðóæåííîé ãðóïïèðîâêè óíè÷òîæåíî:
ñîëäàò è îôèöåðîâ – 49 982,
òàíêîâ è ñàìîõîäíûõ îðóäèé – 203,
îðóäèé ðàçíîãî êàëèáðà – 367,
áðîíåìàøèí è áðîíåòðàíñïîðòåðîâ – 253,
ìèíîì¸òîâ – 490,
ïóëåì¸òîâ – 1561,
ñàìîëåòîâ – 189.
Çàõâà÷åíî:
ïëåííûõ ñîëäàò è îôèöåðîâ – 127 202,
òàíêîâ è ÑÓ – 269,
îðóäèé ðàçíîãî êàëèáðà – 1257,
áðîíåìàøèí è áðîíåòðàíñïîðòåðîâ – 83,
ìèíîìåòîâ – 467,
ïóëåì¸òîâ – 1431,
âèíòîâîê è àâòîìàòîâ – 41 000,
ñàìîë¸òîâ – 15,
ïàðîâîçîâ – 194,
æåëåçíîäîðîæíûõ âàãîíîâ – 9475,
öèñòåðí ñ ãîðþ÷èì – 30,
ãðàíàòîì¸òîâ – 195,
ìîòîöèêëîâ – 1326,
ïëàíåðîâ – 32,
àâòîìàøèí – 5153,
ëîøàäåé – 1585,
ïîâîçîê ñ ðàçëè÷íûìè âîåííûìè ãðóçàìè – 3925,
ñêëàäîâ ñ ðàçëè÷íûì âîåííûì èìóùåñòâîì – 46
Ìîðîçîâ,
Ñàâèí,
Çîëîòîâ
ôîíä. 240, îïèñü, 2779, äåëî 1858, ëèñò 165-169. Ïîäëèííèê.
ÐÀ. ÂÎÂ. Òîì 14 – 3(2). Ñ. 369-370.
The text in English
CAMD RF.The extraordinary fighting report of Command of 2-nd Ukrainian front to Supreme Commander in Chief about mastering by the city of Budapest
On February, 13, 1945
I inform: armies of the left wing of front, having broken through a line strongly strengthenings defensive boundaries both on approaches, and in a nutria of city of Budapest, as a result of lasting many days fierce street fights, storm seizing each building and quarter, by 10 o'clock on February, 13 this year, have crushed the surrounded grouping of the opponent …, have completely seized capital of Hungary the city of Budapest – the major unit iron and highways of Europe, the largest port on Danube and the main center of the industry of Hungary.
The broken group of the opponent up to 7000 person is successfully destroyed in woods northwest of city of Budapest.
For the period of fights on mastering the city of Budapest âîñêàìè front from among the surrounded grouping it is destroyed:
the soldier and officers – 49982,
tanks and self-propelled guns – 203,
guns of different calibre – 367,
armoured cars and armored troop-carriers – 253,
mortars – 490,
machine guns – 1561,
planes – 189.
It is seized:
captured soldiers and officers – 127 202,
tanks and ÑÓ – 269,
guns of different calibre – 1257,
armoured cars and armored troop-carriers – 83,
mortars – 467,
machine guns – 1431,
rifles and automatic devices – 41000,
planes – 15,
steam locomotives – 194,
railway cars – 9475,
tanks with fuel – 30,
grenade cup discharges – 195,
motorcycles – 1326,
gliders – 32,
motor vehicles – 5153,
horses – 1585,
vehicles with various military cargoes – 3925,
warehouses with various military property – 46
Frosts,
Savin,
Zolotov
fund 240, inventory 2779, file 1858, sheet 165-169. The original.
RA. GPW. vol 14 – 3 (2). S. 369-370.
ÐÀ. ÂÎÂ. Òîì 14 – 3(2). Ñ. 370-371.Ïðèêàç Âåðõîâíîãî Ãëàâíîêîìàíäóþùåãî
îá îâëàäåíèè âîéñêàìè Êðàñíîé Àðìèè ñòîëèöåé Âåíãðèè ãîðîäîì Áóäàïåøò
Ìîñêâà
13 ôåâðàëÿ 1945 ãîäà
Âîéñêà 2-ãî Óêðàèíñêîãî ôðîíòà ïðè ñîäåéñòâèè âîéñê 3-ãî Óêðàèíñêîãî ôðîíòà ïîñëå ïîëòîðà ìåñÿöà îñàäû è óïîðíûõ áîåâ â òðóäíûõ óñëîâèÿõ áîëüøîãî ãîðîäà ñåãîäíÿ 13 ôåâðàëÿ, çàâåðøèëè ðàçãðîì îêðóæ¸ííîé ãðóïïèðîâêè ïðîòèâíèêà â Áóäàïåøòå è òåì ñàìûì ïîëíîñòüþ îâëàäåëè ñòîëèöåé Âåíãðèè ãîðîäîì Áóäàïåøò – ñòðàòåãè÷åñêè âàæíûì óçëîì îáîðîíû íåìöåâ íà ïóòÿõ ê Âåíå.
 õîäå áîåâ â ãîðîäå Áóäàïåøò âîéñêàìè 2-ãî Óêðàèíñêîãî ôðîíòà âçÿòî â ïëåí áîëåå 110 000 ñîëäàò è îôèöåðîâ ïðîòèâíèêà âî ãëàâå ñ íåìåöêèì êîìàíäóþùèì áóäàïåøòñêîé ãðóïïû âîéñê ãåíåðàë-ïîëêîâíèêîì Ïôåôôåð-Âèëüäåíáðóõîì è åãî øòàáîì, à òàê æå çàõâàòèëè áîëüøîå êîëè÷åñòâî âîîðóæåíèÿ è ðàçëè÷íîãî èìóùåñòâà.
 îçíàìåíîâàíèå îäåðæàííîé ïîáåäû ñîåäèíåíèÿ è ÷àñòè, íàèáîëåå îòëè÷èâøèåñÿ â áîÿõ çà îâëàäåíèå ãîðîäîì Áóäàïåøò, ïðåäñòàâèòü ê ïðèñâîåíèþ ïî÷åòíîãî íàèìåíîâàíèÿ «Áóäàïåøòñêèõ» è ê íàãðàæäåíèþ îðäåíàìè.
Ñåãîäíÿ, 13 ôåâðàëÿ, â 21 ÷àñ ñòîëèöà íàøåé Ðîäèíû Ìîñêâà îò èìåíè Ðîäèíû ñàëþòóåò äîáëåñòíûì âîéñêàì 2-ãî è 3-ãî Óêðàèíñêèõ ôðîíòîâ, îâëàäåâøèì ñòîëèöåé Âåíãðèè ãîðîäîì Áóäàïåøò, äâàäöàòüþ ÷åòûðüìÿ àðòèëëåðèéñêèìè çàëïàìè èç òð¸õñîò äâàäöàòè ÷åòûð¸õ îðóäèé.
Çà îòëè÷íûå áîåâûå äåéñòâèÿ îáúÿâëÿþ áëàãîäàðíîñòü ðóêîâîäèìûì Âàìè âîéñêàì, ó÷àñòâîâàâøèì â áîÿõ çà îâëàäåíèå Áóäàïåøòîì.
Âå÷íàÿ ñëàâà ãåðîÿì, ïàâøèì â áîÿõ çà ñâîáîäó íåçàâèñèìîñòü íàøåé Ðîäèíû!
Ñìåðòü íåìåöêèì çàõâàò÷èêàì!
Âåðõîâíûé Ãëàâíîêîìàíäóþùèé
Ìàðøàë Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà È. Ñòàëèí
RA. GPW. vol 14 – 3 (2). S. 370-371.The order of Supreme Commander in Chief
about mastering by armies of Red Army by capital of Hungary by the city of Budapest
Moscow
On February, 13, 1945
Armies of 2-nd Ukrainian front with assistance of armies of 3-rd Ukrainian front after one and a half month Besiege and persistent fights in difficult conditions of the big city today on February, 13, have finished route of the surrounded grouping of the opponent in Budapest and by that have completely seized capital of Hungary the city of Budapest – strategically important unit of defense of Germans on ways to Vienna.
During fights in the city of Budapest by armies of 2-nd Ukrainian front it is taken in a captivity more than 110000 soldiers and officers of the opponent led by the German commander of the Budapest group of armies general - colonel Pfeffer-Vildenbruh and its staff and as have grasped a plenty of arms and various property.
In commemoration of the gained victory of connection and a part, most perfectly working in fights for mastering by the city of Budapest to present to assignment of the honourable name "Budapest" and to rewarding by awards.
Today, on February, 13, at 21 o'clock the capital of our Native land Moscow on behalf of the Native land salutes to the valorous armies of 2-nd and 3-rd Ukrainian fronts which have seized with capital of Hungary by the city of Budapest, twenty four artillery volleys from three hundred twenty four guns.
For excellent operations I declare gratitude to the armies supervised by you participating in fights for mastering by Budapest.
Eternal glory to the heroes falling in fights for freedom independence of our Native land!
Death to German aggressors!
Supreme Commander in Chief
The Marshal of Soviet Union I. Stalin
-
Jan-Hendrik
- Member
- Posts: 8711
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- Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland
The text in Russian
ôîíä. 243, îïèñü, 20370, äåëî 2, ëèñò 193-195. Ðóêîïèñíûé ïîäëèííèê.
ÐÀ. ÂÎÂ. Òîì 14 – 3(2). Ñ. 371.
The text in English
fund 243, inventory 20370, file 2, sheet 193-195. The hand-written original.
RA. GPW. vol 14 – 3 (2). S. 371.
ÖÀÌÎ ÐÔ.Áîåâîå äîíåñåíèå êîìàíäîâàíèÿ 3-ãî Óêðàèíñêîãî ôðîíòà
Âåðõîâíîìó Ãëàâíîêîìàíäóþùåìó î ëèêâèäàöèè ãðóïïèðîâêè ïðîòèâíèêà, ïðîðâàâøåãîñÿ èç ãîðîäà Áóäàïåøò
16 ôåâðàëÿ 1945 ã.
Ïðîòèâíèê â òå÷åíèå 16/2/45 ðàçðîçíåííûìè ìåëêèìè ãðóïïàìè è îäèíî÷êàìè îáùåé ÷èñëåííîñòüþ íå áîëåå 600 ÷åëîâåê, ïðîäîëæàë áåçóñïåøíûå ïîïûòêè âûõîäà èç îêðóæåíèÿ â ñåâåðî-çàïàäíîì è çàïàäíîì íàïðàâëåíèÿõ.
Çàõâàòîì ñåãîäíÿ ïëåííûõ è äîêóìåíòàìè ïîäòâåðæäàåòñÿ äåéñòâèå ïåðåä ôðîíòîì:
3 ÒÄ ÑÑ «Ìåðòâàÿ ãîëîâà», 5 ÒÄ ÑÑ «Âèêèíã», 1 ÒÄ (íåìöû), 23, 25 ÏÄ (âåíãðû) è 1 ÊÄ (âåíãðû).
Íà äðóãèõ ó÷àñòêàõ ôðîíòà – äåéñòâèÿ ðàçâåäûâàòåëüíûõ ãðóïï è àðòèëëåðèéñêî-ìèíîìåòíàÿ ïåðåñòðåëêà.
Àâèàöèÿ ïðîòèâíèêà îäèíî÷íûìè è ãðóïïàìè ïî 2-3 ñàìîëåòà âåëà ðàçâåäêó è ïîïóòíî áîìáèëà áîåâûå ïîðÿäêè íàøèõ âîéñê, ãðóïïîþ ïî 4-6 ñàìîëåòîâ íåïðåðûâíî ïàòðóëèðîâàëà íàä ðàéîíîì Çàìîëü, Ñåêåøôåõåðâàð.
Âñåãî îòìå÷åíî 127 ñàìîëåòî-ïðîëåòîâ.
2. Âîéñêà ôðîíòà ÷àñòüþ ñèë 46-é àðìèè è 11-é ÊÄ 5-ãî ãâàðäåéñêîãî ÊÊ çàêîí÷èëè ëèêâèäàöèþ îñòàòêîâ ïðîðâàâøåéñÿ èç Áóäàïåøòà ãðóïïèðîâêè ïðîòèâíèêà, íå ïðîïóñòèâ ÷åðåç ëèíèþ ôðîíòà íè îäíîé, õîòÿ áû è ìåëêîé ãðóïïû.
Îòðàæàÿ ìíîãî÷èñëåííûå ïîïûòêè ïðîòèâíèêà íî÷üþ è äí¸ì ïðîðûâàòüñÿ ÷åðåç íàøè áîåâûå ïîðÿäêè, âîéñêà çà ïåðèîä ñ 12.2 ïî 16.2.45 óíè÷òîæèëè äî 9500 íåìåöêèõ è âåíãåðñêèõ ñîëäàò è îôèöåðîâ.
Âçÿòû â ïëåí è íàõîäÿòñÿ íà ñáîðíûõ ïóíêòàõ âîåííîïëåííûõ 46-é àðìèè 19 232 ïëåííûõ, èç íèõ íåìöåâ 9100, âåíãðîâ 10 132, â òîì ÷èñëå:
ãåíåðàë-ëåéòåíàíò Áåëüíèöåð Ýðêî – êîìàíäóþùèé øòóðìîâîé àðòèëëåðèåé ã. Áóäàïåøò;
ãåíåðàë-ëåéòåíàíò Èìðå Êàëàíäè – àäìèíèñòðàòèâíûé êîìåíäàíò 1 àê;
ãåíåðàë-ìàéîð Ëåìáàðêîâè÷ Îëàïîø – êîìåíäàíò ãîðîäà Áóäàïåøò (âñå òðîå âåíãðû);
ïîëêîâíèê Êîðîð Ôðèäðèõ Âèëüãåëüì – êîìàíäèð 35 ÏÏ, ïðèäàííîãî 13 ÒÄ (íåìöû);
ïîëêîâíèê ßíçà Ýðèîò – êîìàíäèð 12-ãî çåíèòíîãî àðòïîëêà;
ïîëêîâíèê Ëèíàðä Éîæåô – íà÷àëüíèê àðòèëëåðèè 1 àê (âåíãðû);
îôèöåðîâ – 1125, èç íèõ íåìöåâ – 93 è 1032 âåíãðà â ÷èíå îò ëåéòåíàíòà äî ïîäïîëêîâíèêà.
Íà äðóãèõ ó÷àñòêàõ ôðîíòà âîéñêà çàêðåïëÿëèñü íà çàíèìàåìûõ ðóáåæàõ, âåëè ðàçâåäêó.
…
Ô. Òîëáóõèí
À. Æåëòîâ
Ñ. Èâàíîâ
ôîíä. 243, îïèñü, 20370, äåëî 2, ëèñò 193-195. Ðóêîïèñíûé ïîäëèííèê.
ÐÀ. ÂÎÂ. Òîì 14 – 3(2). Ñ. 371.
The text in English
CAMD RF.The fighting report of command of 3-rd Ukrainian front
To supreme commander in chief about liquidation of a grouping of the opponent who has broken from the city of Budapest
On February, 16, 1945.
The opponent during 16/2/45 isolated fine groups and singles an aggregate number no more than 600 person, continued unsuccessful attempts of an exit from an environment in northwest and western directions.
Capture today captured and documents action before front proves to be true:
3 PzD SS «Dead head », 5 PzD SS "Viking", 1 PzD (Germans), 23, 25 ID (Hungarians) and 1 CavDiv (Hungarians).
On other sites of front – actions of prospecting groups and artillery - mortar firing.
The aircraft of the opponent single and groups on 2-3 planes conducted investigation and in passing bombed fighting orders of our armies, group on 4-6 planes continuously patroled above area Zamol, Sekeshfekhervar.
In total 127 planer-flights are marked.
2. Armies of front a part of forces of 46-th army and 11-th CavDiv 5-th Guards Cav Corps have finished liquidation of the rests of the grouping which have broken from Budapest of the opponent, not having passed through a front line of any, even and fine group.
Reflecting numerous attempts of the opponent at night and to break through our fighting orders, armies for the period with 12/2 on 16/2/45 in the afternoon have destroyed up to 9500 German and Hungarian soldiers and officers.
Are taken in a captivity and are on assembly points POWs 46-th armies 19232 captured, from them Germans 9100, Hungarians 10132, including:
general - lieutenant Belnitser Erko – the commander assault artillery Budapest;
general - lieutenant Imre Kalandi – the administrative commandant 1 AK;
general - major Lembarkovich Olaposh – the commandant of the city of Budapest (all three Hungarians);
colonel Koror Fridrih Wilhelm – the commander 35 IR, the subordinate 13 PzD (Germans);
colonel Janza Eriot – the commander of 12-th antiaircraft Regiment;
colonel Linard Jozhef – the chief of artillery 1 AK (Hungarians);
officers – 1125, from them Germans – 93 and 1032 Hungarians in a grade from the lieutenant up to the lieutenant colonel.
On other sites of front of an army were fixed on occupied boundaries, conducted investigation.
…
F.Tolbuhin
A.Zheltov
S.Ivanov
fund 243, inventory 20370, file 2, sheet 193-195. The hand-written original.
RA. GPW. vol 14 – 3 (2). S. 371.
I believe there were 30,000+ German and around 40,000 Hungarian soldiers in Budapest, those plust Hungarian police unit and militiar units("arrow-corss"), the strength of the Budapest garrison were around 90,000, I guess Soviet may captured between 40,000-60,000, other were killed (only several hundreds escaped), then Soviet rounded up not only military persoanls but also civilian officrs, government employee or and Hungarians who was military age, and "could be a solider", add those up, I would not surprise that red army could capture 110,000 "prisoners", actually both German and Soviet did this kind of thing at East FrontJan-Hendrik wrote:Interesting that they had been able to take more POWs than there had been defenders in Budapest at all ...taken in a captivity more than 110000 soldiers and officers of the opponent
Jan-Hendrik
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Jan-Hendrik
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[]Well , that sounds rational , a friend of mine estimanted the number of defenders , including the KISKA , police-units and so on , based on the works of Dr.Norbert Szamveber :
Jan-HendrikUngarisch Truppen:
- 10. ID: 7500 Mann
- 12. Res.ID: 4000 Mann
- Teile 1.PzD: 5000 Mann
- Teile 1.KD: 1000 Mann
- 1., 6., 7., 10., 13., 16., 24. StuG-Abteilungen: 2000 Mann
- Flak: 1., 201., 204., 206., 207., 208. Flak-Abt, 52. SF-Flak-Abt: 2000 Mann
- Sicherungsbattalion Budapest: 800 Mann
- 1. u. 2. Uni-Sturm-Battalione: 1000 Mann
- VIII., IX, IV Pionierbat. VI/2, VII/", IX/1., 110., 112., 153. Pionierkompanie, VII. u. VIII Pion-Ers-Komp. 72/101 und 72/106 Hochspannungs-Sperren-Komp., 134., 138., 401., 404. Brückenbau-Kolonnen, I/1., I/2., III/1, III/2 Baukompanien, 101., 102. Sturmbootkomp., 201., 202., 203., Sonder-Ingineur-Battalion, 102. Entgiftungbat., 101. Herstellungsbat., 101., 102., 104. Eisenbahn-Bau-Bat., 107., 110., 111. Eisenbahn-Bau-Komp., 101., 109. Betriebskomp., 104. Gerätekolonne, 101. Hochspannung-Abteilung: 7000 Mann
- Beszterceer, Galantaer, Pécser, Székelyudvarhelyer und Zilaher Gandarmeriebattalione: 3240 Mann
- Polizei-Sturm-Bat.: 1630 Mann
- Vannay-Battalion (Landwehr): 638 Mann
- Sturmbat. Budapest I. u. II: 1000 Mann
- Staatsschutz-Bat. 500 Mann
- Kampfgruppen (Berend, Korányi, Déri, Morlin, Viharos): 2000 Mann
- Artillerie (12 Batterien): 500 Mann
- Institute und Nachschubtrupen: 2800 Mann
- Partei-Freiwillige: 1500 Mann
- KISKA: 7000 Mann
Insgesamt: 51.100 Mann
Deutsche Truppen:
- 8.SS KD: 8000 Mann
- 22.SS Kd: 11.345 Mann
- 13. PZD: 4983 Mann
- PzGrD FHH: 7255 Mann
- Teile 271. VGrD: 1000 Mann
- 1.SS-Polizei-Rgt: 700 Mann
- 12.SS-Polizei-Panzer-Komp.: 100 Mann
- 12. Flak-Sturm-Rgt: 1000 Mann
- 40/I sFlak-Abt.: 500 Mann
- 573. sFlak-Abt.: 200 Mann
- Bataillon Europa: 300 Mann
- Kampfruppen : 1500 Mann
- Batallion z.b.V. 500: 200 Mann
- Sonstige Truppenteile: 2500 Mann
- Heerestruppen: 1500 Mann
Insgesamt: 41.080 Mann
Insgesamt: 92.200 Mann.
It is not necessary imaginations.mars wrote: I believe there were 30,000+ German and around 40,000 Hungarian soldiers in Budapest, those plust Hungarian police unit and militiar units("arrow-corss"), the strength of the Budapest garrison were around 90,000, I guess Soviet may captured between 40,000-60,000, other were killed (only several hundreds escaped), then Soviet rounded up not only military persoanls but also civilian officrs, government employee or and Hungarians who was military age, and "could be a solider", add those up, I would not surprise that red army could capture 110,000 "prisoners", actually both German and Soviet did this kind of thing at East Front
The red Army was not at war with civilians.
Armies of other countries were engaged in this "noble" business.
Besides, on the side of Red Army the Hungarian soldiers, officers and generals operated many, including the Ñhief of the Joint Staff of the Hungarian army general - colonel Lajosh Vyoryosh.
And, the Hungarian soldiers and the officers working on the side of Red Army, were in structure of Hungarian units.
ÐÀ. ÂÎÂ. òîì 14 -3(2). Ñ. 343Äîêëàäíàÿ çàïèñêà êîìàíäîâàíèÿ 2-ãî Óêðàèíñêîãî ôðîíòà
Âåðõîâíîìó Ãëàâíîêîìàíäóþùåìó ñ ïðîñüáîé ðàçðåøèòü Ìèíèñòðó îáîðîíû Âðåìåííîãî íàöèîíàëüíîãî ïðàâèòåëüñòâà Âåíãðèè ñôîðìèðîâàòü ïåõîòíóþ äèâèçèþ.
27 äåêàáðÿ 1944 ãîäà
Ìèíèñòð îáîðîíû Âðåìåííîãî íàöèîíàëüíîãî ïðàâèòåëüñòâ ãåíåðàë-ïîëêîâíèê ¸ð¸ø îáðàòèëñÿ ñ ïðîñüáîé ðàçðåøèòü åìó ñôîðìèðîâàòü ïåõîòíóþ äèâèçèþ èç ÷èñëà âîåííîïëåííûõ âåíãðîâ.
 áåñåäå ãåíåðàë-ïîëêîâíèê ¸ð¸ø çàÿâèë, ÷òî îí äóìàåò ñôîðìèðîâàòü å¸ íà äîáðîâîëüíûõ íà÷àëàõ èç ÷èñëà âîåííîïëåííûõ âåíãðîâ, è åñëè íå áóäåò âîçðàæåíèé ñî ñòîðîíû ñîâåòñêîãî êîìàíäîâàíèÿ, òî îí õîòåë áû îñíîâíîé êîñòÿê äèâèçèè ñîçäàòü èç ÷èñëà ïëåííûõ âåíãðîâ, äàâíî ïîïàâøèõ â ïëåí, íàõîäÿùèõñÿ â Ñîâåòñêîì Ñîþçå, à òàêæå èç ÷èñëà ïåðåøåäøèõ íà íàøó ñòîðîíó ïëåííûõ íà òåððèòîðèè Âåíãðèè. Ãåíåðàë-ïîëêîâíèê ¸ð¸ø óêàçàë òàêæå, ÷òî îí õîòåë áû èìåòü â ôîðìèðóåìîé ÷àñòè ðàáî÷èõ-äîáðîâîëüöåâ, èìåþùèõ îïûò áîðüáû ñ íåìöàìè â òûëó ïðîòèâíèêà.
Ãåíåðàë-ïîëêîâíèê â áåñåäå ìíîãî ãîâîðèë î çíà÷åíèè ñîçäàíèÿ âåíãåðñêîé âîèíñêîé ÷àñòè. Îñîáû óïîð ïðè ýòîì îí äåëàë íà òî, ÷òî ìíîãèå âåíãåðñêèå îôèöåðû è ñîëäàòû ïðîäîëæàþò îñòàâàòüñÿ íà ñòîðîíå Ñàëàøè ó íåìöåâ ïîòîìó, ÷òî íå õîòÿò áûòü âîåííîïëåííûìè; êîãäà æå îíè óçíàþò, ÷òî ïðîòèâ íåìöåâ ñðàæàåòñÿ âåíãåðñêàÿ ÷àñòü è ÷òî åñëè îíè ïåðåéäóò íà ñòîðîíó Êðàñíîé Àðìèè, òî èõ îæèäàåò íå ïëåí, à âêëþ÷åíèå â âåíãåðñêóþ âîèíñêóþ ÷àñòü, èõ îïàñåíèÿ îòïàäóò.
Äîêëàäûâàÿ îá èçëîæåííîì, ïðîøó Âàøåãî óêàçàíèÿ:
1. Äàòü ðàçðåøåíèå íà ôîðìèðîâàíèå âåíãåðñêîé äèâèçèè ïî øòàòàì âåíãåðñêîé àðìèè, ÷èñëåííîñòüþ 13-15 òûñÿ÷ ÷åëîâåê.
Îïðåäåëèòü ïóíêò ôîðìèðîâàíèÿ – ãîðîä Äåáðåöåí.
2. Âîîðóæèòü äèâèçèþ òðîôåéíûì âåíãåðñêèì è íåìåöêèì îðóæèåì çà ñ÷¸ò òðîôååâ 2-ãî è 3-ãî Óêðàèíñêèõ ôðîíòîâ.
3.  ñëó÷àå Âàøåãî ðàçðåøåíèÿ óêîìïëåêòîâàòü äèâèçèþ âîåííîïëåííûìè âåíãðàìè, íàõîäÿùèìèñÿ â ÑÑÑÐ, ïðîøó äàòü óêàçàíèÿ ñîîáùèòü, â êàêîì êîëè÷åñòâå è â êàêèå ñðîêè îíè ïðèáóäóò â Âåíãðèþ.
4. Ðàçðåøèòü ïðåäàòü ãåíåðàë-ïîëêîâíèêó ¸ð¸øó ïî åãî çàÿâêå âîåííîïëåííûõ âåíãåðñêèõ îôèöåðîâ, íàõîäÿùèõñÿ âî ôðîíòîâûõ ëàãåðÿõ.
5. Ãåíåðàë-ïîëêîâíèê ¸ð¸ø æåëàåò, ñ ñîãëàñèÿ ñâîåãî ïðàâèòåëüñòâà, îáúÿâèòü î ïðèçûâå äîáðîâîëüöåâ â ôîðìèðóåìóþ ÷àñòü âåíãðîâ îñâîáîæä¸ííîé òåððèòîðèè.
Ð. Ìàëèíîâñêèé
È. Ñóñàéêîâ
RA. GPW vol 14-3(2). S. 343The report of command of 2-nd Ukrainian front
To supreme commander in chief with the request to allow to generate to Minister of Defence of the Time national government of Hungary an infantry division.
On December, 27, 1944
Minister of Defence Time national the governments general - colonel Vyoryosh has addressed with the request to allow to generate to it(him) an infantry division from number POWs Hungarians.
In conversation general - colonel Vyoryosh has declared, that he thinks to generate it on a voluntary basis from number POWs Hungarians and if not will be objections on the part of the Soviet command he would like to create the basic skeleton of a division from among the captured Hungarians who for a long time have been taken prisoner, taking place in Soviet Union, and also from number passing on our side captured in territory of Hungary. General - colonel Vyoryosh has specified also, that he would like to have in a formed part of the workers - volunteers who are possessing experience of struggle against Germans in rear of the opponent.
The general - colonel in conversation spoke about value of creation of the Hungarian military unit much. Persons an emphasis thus he did that many Hungarian officers and soldiers continue to remain on side Salashi with Germans because do not want to be POWs; when they find out, that against Germans the Hungarian part and that battles if they will come over to on the side of Red Army they are expected not with a captivity, and inclusion in the Hungarian military unit, their fears will disappear.
Reporting about stated, I ask Your instruction:
1. To authorize for formation of the Hungarian division on staffs of the Hungarian army, number of 13-15 thousand person.
To define point of formation – the city of Debrecen.
2. To arm a division with the trophy Hungarian and German weapon due to trophies of 2-nd and 3-rd Ukrainian fronts.
3. In case of your sanction to complete a division âîåííîïëåííûìè the Hungarians who are taking place in the USSR, I ask to instruct to inform, in what quantity and in what terms they will arrive to Hungary.
4. To allow to betray to general - colonel Vyoryoshu under his application POWs the Hungarian officers who are taking place in front camps.
5. General - colonel Vyoryosh wishes, with the consent of the government, to declare an appeal of volunteers in a formed part of Hungarians of the exempted territory.
R.Malinovsky
I.Susajkov