Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 975
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Post by Yuri » 24 May 2007 11:35

Qvist wrote:1) What sort of strength is this? Bayonets? Ration?
2) What a very strange distribution between men and officers (including, I presume, NCOs) - it looks like the Soviet divisions have roughly one officer/NCO for every two men !?


1.Here it is specified absolutely full force - riflemans, sappers, artillerymen, signalmen, cooks, hospital attendants and veterinaries, etc.
Those who was far from front in rear are taken into account also.
Are taken into account and easily wounded, taking place in regimental or divisional hospital.
2. In Russia in structure of armed forces (Red Army, the Soviet Army, the Russian army) no (is more true, very little) civilian structure, as against armies of the western countries.
As a rule, such posts are held by officers or NCOs.
Besides the number of officers and sergeants in Russian army is more than in armies of the western countries. For example, in a the rifle company of 5 officers (in a Wermacht - 2 officers), in a the rifle battalion 56 officers.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 975
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Post by Yuri » 28 May 2007 18:00

The data collected in TSAMO allow to make a full picture on domestic (Russian) tanks in battle for state farm " Red Star " (sovkhoz No 79).
Unfortunately, it it is impossible to tell about trophy German tanks. The question is those tanks which have been grasped at 22-nd Pz. Div to the south from Petrovka on November, 23 by cavalrymen 8-th cavalry corps.
In total cavalrymen have grasped 69 tanks of 22-nd Pz. Div from which 68 were serviceable a condition. German generals have informed the Hitler, that these tanks have eaten, ostensibly, mice.
However, from these, ostensibly, the tanks eaten with mice Russian could create three or four separate tank battalions till 15-20 tanks in everyone.
As the German trophy technics was non-staff data on this technics in the basic to the armour-report were not included.
For today it was possible to find out data only about one of such separate tank battalions. This separate tank battalion commanded captain Katyshev.
From the found document it is visible, that the captain Katyshev's battalion had on 28/12/42:
TSAMO
f. 331, op. 5041, d. 181, l. 80

Tanks T-III - 3 pieces
Tanks T-IV - 4 pieces
Tanks «Prague» (TNG-S) - 1 pieces (so Czech tank T-38 (t) was designated)

Besides there were 8 more tanks T-II, two of which were restored, and 6 were serviceable, but were not got (the reason, unfortunately is not specified).

Apparently, as of 28/12/41 in Katyshev battalion still there were " eaten with mice " 16 tanks of 22-nd Pz. Div.

From the documents checked up by me not clearly - separate tank battalions with trophy tanks participated in battle for state farm " Red Star " (sovkhoz No 79) or not.
Therefore while we shall be limited to data on domestic (Russian) tanks.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 975
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Post by Yuri » 30 Jun 2007 12:59

Yesterday I was in TsAMO and have read in one of archival documents about that units of the Russian 8-th Cavalry Corps have grasped 5/1/43 in CHERNYSHKOVSKIJ documents of an army HQ of battle group STAHEL and an army HQ 687 IR 336 ID.
I managed to find translation into Russian of one of documents of an army HQ of battle group STAHEL.
From this document it is visible, that on December, 29, 1942 for strengthening the battle group STAHEL there has arrived a modular regiment of 62-nd infantry division.

This document. (Source: TsAMO, f. 331, op. 5041, d. 1, l. 213)

THE APPENDIX 1
Translation from German

64 ID [Here probably a typing error, should be 62 ID - Yuri].
1 operations section .............................. CP division 29/12/42

TO THE MAIN COMMAND XVII AK

The division informs

1. That the regiment formed from broken units and divisions in structure of three battalions on 3 companies in everyone, is sent today in 12-00 on motor vehicles and by the evening should arrive to region VOZNESENOVSKY [Between CHERNYSHKOVSKY and MOROZOVSKY – Yuri].

2. Command of a regiment: major KINAST with the regiment an army HQ of 190-th grenadierial regiment (to settle a private order of the main command).

3. The organization:

I/179 grenadierial regiment
Command: senior lieutenant SEIFERT [or ZEIFERT - Yuri]
1,2 and 3 companies in structure of 5 officers, 78 corporals, 373 soldiers.
Arms: 605 carbines, 178 pistols, 73 automatic devices, 14 manual machine guns, 8 heavy machine guns, 6 heavy mortars, one heavy infantry gun.

II/183 grenadierial regiment
Command: senior lieutenant NAPUSHIL.
4,5 and 6 companies in structure of 3 officers, 26 corporals, 174 soldiers.
Arms: 313 carbines, 216 pistols, 12 automatic devices, 12 manual machine guns, 3 heavy machine guns, 1 easy mortar, one heavy gun.

III/190 grenadierial regiment
Command: captain EKKERT [or ECKERT - Yuri]
7, 8 and 9 companies in structure of 5 officers, 33 corporals, 211 soldiers.
Arms: 380 carbines, 236 pistols, 40 automatic devices, 16 manual machine guns, 4 heavy machine guns, 8 easy mortars, two heavy mortars, 2 ATG 37 mm, two easy infantry guns.

For formation of subdivisions of a regiment it is planned:
1 officer, 19 corporals, 91 soldiers. An aggregate number of a regiment: 16 officers, 133 corporals, 849 soldiers. The regiment has received one radio station which today will be delivered to the location of a regiment for connection with the main command.

Battle transports which will not consist in named above number, the regiment conducts with itself. The battle equipment and an ammunition are given out now.

For command of a division
The first main staff-officer
/The signature not legible /

Has translated from German the military translator
The quartermaster 3 ranks /Revenko/

Truly: the CHIEF of the OPERATIONS SECTION of the ARMY HEADQUARTERS 8CC
GUARDS THE LIEUTENANT COLONEL /NADASHKEVICH/



My remark to the document: the Total sum of corporals does not coincide with number specified in the document:
78+26+33+19 =156.
In the document it is specified 133.

Interesting detail.
From the document it is visible, in region VOZNESENOVSKY it has been directed in total 16 + 156 + 849 = 1021 officers, corporals and the soldier.
On the other hand, the number of the individual weapon in this summary to a regiment is much more than number of people:
Really:
- Carbines: 605 + 313 + 380 = 1299 pieces
- Pistols: 178 + 216 + 236 = 630 pieces
- Automatic devices: 73 + 12 + 40 = 125 pieces
- Manual machine guns: 14 + 12 + 16 = 42 pieces
- Heavy machine guns: 8 + 3 + 4 = 15 pieces
All small arms: 1299 + 630 + 125 + 42 + 15 = 2110 pieces.
It on much greater, than, 1021 person specified in the document.
Why?
Can be taken into account in the document only Germans, whereas other nations (Poles, Czechs, Frenchmen, Dutchs, Belgians and other not-Germans) were not taken into account in number of units?

For example - it is precisely established, that on December, 25 appeared on bottom the Chir the 6 Pazer Division has received here updating of 200 Germans and 600 Poles. Has received Poles on updating a the motorcycle battalion of the 22 Pazer Division.
On December, 29 has been captured the group in 30 soldiers and one lieutenant in which were Czechs.

And further one more interesting detail
Comparing the data from this trophy document and the data on a site Lexikon der-Wehrmacht it is possible to see, that this site contains mistakes.

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 975
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Post by Yuri » 01 Jul 2007 20:45

ATH wrote:
Abel Ravasz wrote:
Gruppe Spang:
4. u. 5. reserve Flak Abtl. 145. –


I've got no clue about this one.
Flak Abt 145 was in Africa with Flak Reg 33.
Flak Reg 145 did not have organic battalions, and was not even in existence at the time.
No Res Flak Abt 145 is known to me.

Abel

Oops, could it rather be 4. und 5. reserve Flk. Abtl. 145?

BTW, thanks for the comments, really helpful stuff.

Regards,
GG


Probably the answer contains here.
From the contents of documents of an army HQ of battle group Shtahel (have been grasped 3/1/43) it is visible, that 3/1/43 artillery of garrison Chernyshkovskij has consisten of an artillery regiment of 306-th infantry division and 147-th air-defence regiment of air defence (or anti-aircraft defense).

lufty1
Member
Posts: 45
Joined: 09 Jul 2007 08:34
Location: UK

blood red snow

Post by lufty1 » 09 Jul 2007 08:38

Very interesting thread. Has Yuri looked at the account in "blood red snow" of fighting around the Don which had maps too?

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 975
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Re: blood red snow

Post by Yuri » 10 Jul 2007 17:51

lufty1 wrote:Very interesting thread. Has Yuri looked at the account in "blood red snow" of fighting around the Don which had maps too?


You could not give the reference where it can be seen?

ATH
Member
Posts: 85
Joined: 25 Mar 2006 21:40
Location: Canada

Post by ATH » 11 Jul 2007 06:46

Hi,

I have just come across a document from 336.I.D. where it mentions 2 companies from Lw.Feld.Div. 9 8O. The document in question is "Division order Nr. 42 for the attack" dated 6.12.42 13:30. It says that 1./ and 3./Lw.Feld-Div.9 were subordinated to Art.Rgt. 336 (and yes it really reads Lw.FELD-Div) and that 1 flak combat troup of the 3./ schw.(!)Lw.Feld-Div. 9 was with Gren.Rgt.686.
.
.
.
However, on another document, "Division order Nr. 43 for the defence" dated 13.12.42 05:00, two companies sporting the same number (1./ and 3./) and subordinated to Gren.Rgt.686 and are clearly marked with the suffix /Flak-Div. 9.

So we can pretty much say that it was a mistake taking the the Flak Division 9 for the Lw Feld-Division 9... which is still quite strange.

lufty1
Member
Posts: 45
Joined: 09 Jul 2007 08:34
Location: UK

Post by lufty1 » 11 Jul 2007 12:46

Blood Red Snow - G Koschorrek - widely available book

User avatar
Yuri
Member
Posts: 975
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Post by Yuri » 13 Jul 2007 22:28

I congratulate you, ATH!
You now, undoubtedly, it is the bettest in the West know, that was actually on the river Chir in November - December, 1942.
Thus, you can safely protect the thesis for a doctor's degree on a theme « Myths and realities of battle on the river Chir in the winter of 1942»!

Still a pair of strokes to a question about 9 LW-FD and 9 Flak Div.
Interestingly that POWs soldiers from this formation considered that refers to 9 LW-FD.
Second, some POWs and killed, in soldier's books really had record about an a belonging to 9 LW-Div.
Whether could be so, what the Luftwaffe’s command tried to generate in December, 1942 one more the airfield division directly at the front to the river Chir?
Quite could be so, that as a basis for a new formation have tried to use subdivisions 9 Flak Div.
Besides apparently, some divisions from structure real 9 LW-FD arrived on the river Chir together with 8 and-or 7 LW-FD's.
In this case, there is a logic in this rather confusing situation.



P.S.
At a global level the General Staff of Red Army ranked 9 LW-FD to HG "North".

ATH
Member
Posts: 85
Joined: 25 Mar 2006 21:40
Location: Canada

Post by ATH » 23 Aug 2007 20:00

lufty1 wrote:Blood Red Snow - G Koschorrek - widely available book

Thanks for the heads up lufty1!

Yes, indeed, Koschorek was a machine gunner of panzer-grenadier regiment 21 (24.Pz.Div.). He found himself in Group Adam on the bridgehead (Gr.Sauerbruch). He details the action from Uranus all the way to the end of december in around 125 pages.
Very interesting, particularly how he describe the collapse of the Don bridgehead on the 13.december..

BTW, I have an original 40+ pages after-action report on the loss of the Don bridge. Very interesting stuff when combined.

lufty1
Member
Posts: 45
Joined: 09 Jul 2007 08:34
Location: UK

Post by lufty1 » 24 Sep 2007 09:54

ath - where did you get that doc?

Arensburger
Member
Posts: 256
Joined: 06 Dec 2003 22:27
Location: Estonia

Post by Arensburger » 03 Oct 2007 22:48

Yuri wrote:5. « Magazine of operations of 36-th Estonian police batallion ». (the commander of a batallion major RENTOR, and then captain GIRGAKE) - determines:

At the time of arriving to the Surovokino, commander of the Estn. Schutzmannschafts-F-Bataillon 36 was Major Julius Renter (born 1888; veteran of WWI and Estonian Independence War) and the officer of communication [Verbindungs-offizier (all Estonians battalions had this kind of German officer in the staff)] was (captain of police) Hauptmann KIRHAKE (or GIRGAKE). I even do not know how to spell this name.
After two days of combat commander of battalion Major Renter was removed (officially because he got sick) and he was sent to command Est. Schutzmannschaft -W-Bataillon 35 in Estonia. Soldiers of battalion believe – reason was Renters bad relation with Verbindungs-offizier and also with new commanders in Surovokino (probably with commander of kampfgruppe oberst Schmidt).
To command the battalion was appointed commander of 3. Company oberleutenant Harald Riipalu and to command 3. Company was appointed Lieutenant Artur Tammaru. Later Riipalu got promotion to Hauptman.
Yuri wrote:Definition of number of 36-th Estonian police battalion
(f. 24 p. 194)
Translation from German
........5 - - “ - - “ - 2 automobile and 3 lorries;......

The common number of people in 36-th Estonian police battalion will make:
447 person

Leaving Estonia, battalion has only one car – old Dodge. In the Russia drivers of the battalion had lots of problems with this car because Germans had no spare parts for Dodge.
In November of 1942 (in Stalino), a few weeks before going to the front, battalion’s communication officer got a brand new car Tatra. And do drive this Tatra was appointed Elmar Pello.
As Pello remember, at the time of unloading cars under the Russian mortar fire in station of Surovokino, a Dodge car got direct hit by mortar shell (right across the rooftop) and was left into the station of Surovokino. From this moment battalion had only one car and Pello had to drive both – commander of the Battalion and German communication officer.
Yuri wrote:....These three battalions and the most part (two companies) 36-th Estonian police battalion have been subordinated to an army headquarters of the captain the Weike who has arrived from Leningrad together with 1-st tank company of 301-st tank battalion.....

Actually there were 2. company (commanded by oberleutnant Karl Palm) of 36. Estn. Batallion separated from the entire battalion and sent to another kampfgruppe (probably Weike) in the morning of the 03.12.43.
In the early morning of 03.12.43 2. company was pulled out from the frontline by Chir river near the Tsuvilevski and sent to the south-east and placed to the frontline about 6 to 8 km south from Surovokino. 04.12.42 company went to attack forced by 2 tanks. Company breaking into the enemy positions, but tanks are leaving and by counterattack of enemy 2. company is pushed back to his lines. 6.-th of Dec. 2. company is under heavy fire of enemy and defending a smaller enemy attack. 7.-th of Dec. 2. company together with German company from Hauptman Brengert`s battalion and forced with tanks attacking enemy lines. Attack had success and Russians are beaten out from his positions. Right after the attack tanks are leaving. Afternoon enemy attacking neighboring German company and Germans were pushed back. Est. 2. company continue fight in the reached lines, but under enemy fire and without own heavy weapons help it comes no possible to stay. Hauptman Brengert ordering Est. company back to the initial position, but it is very hard to do under heavy fire of enemy. Finally under the dark company returning to the initial position. But this day cost a lot for 2. company. Company lost commander oberleutnant Karl Palm, Lieutenant Leonhard Riit and lieutenant Viktor Ermus and at all 7.-th of Dec. was a worst day for 36. Estn. Bat. by Chir front.
2. company fighting separated from 36. Bat. until they leaving Chir front. After perishing Karl Palm commanding of company was taken over by Lieutenant Elmar Lipping. In his memories Lipping telling about changing positions in 21. of Dec. Now our neighbors are companies of Lieutenant Neumann and Lieutenant Ehrenkrook. 26.of Dec. commanders of companies are visiting a commander of the regiment oberst Selle, who leaving to the Stalingrad at the next day.

ATH
Member
Posts: 85
Joined: 25 Mar 2006 21:40
Location: Canada

Post by ATH » 04 Oct 2007 01:54

Thanks a lot Arensburger,

I think I can add some relevant information relating to Estn.Schuma.Btl.36.Arensburg

We know that Kp.Palm was with Abt.Hptm.Bengert under Gr.Selle on the 4.12.42 and that it was composed of 115 men and had 2 x 8,8cm Flak in its sector on that day (tank presence is unspecified in documents).
The company defended the sector of Height 122,1 (south of Surovikino). It had on its left flank, Kp.Shulte (or Shulte-Nentreg) which had as its base Pz.A.R.16 and Heeres-Art.13 and had their left flank along the Chir - strength = 40 men; while its right flank was taken by Kp.Neumann (24.Pz.Div.) which defended the Field station and the end tip of the “balka” Golaja - strength = 100 men.
On the 14.12.42, it is referred in a German document about Gr.Selle as only Estn.Kp. (no #, no commander’s name) and with the fallowing strength: 3 Offz, 14 Uffz, 50 Mann for a total strength of 67 men.

As for the Estn.Schuma.btl.36 itself, there are maps which shows that it defended the Chir river line between Chuvilevskij and Nizh.Kalinovskij. This means that it was probably subordinated to Gr.Weike as soon as the latter was formed.

As for its neighbours, Abt.Schöne (under Gr.Schmidt) defended the area near Nizh.Kalinovskij while 4./51(?) with 2 x 2cm flak guns is shown to be defending Chuvilevskij (Actually, this company is quite obscure as it’s shown only on some maps, and never mentioned in other documents). Same problem with a so-called Kp.Jörger(?) which defended the woods southeast of Sekretev on both sides of the Chir. Never is this unit mentioned in any written documents I’ve found this far. Maybe both units were actually two of the companies of Alarm.Btl.Charkow.I? In actuality, another company of Charkow.I was also present in Nizh.Kalinovskij (with Abt.Schöne?).
That would be coherent: the 4 companies of Alarm Btl. Charkow I each could have been defending one of the main villages (N.Kalinovskij, Chuvilevskij, (Staro-) Derbenovskij) south of the Chir and a part of the Sekretev bridgehead BETWEEN both the Oblivskaja and Surovikino strongholds. Charkow I was the strongest alarm battalion on paper and was at least partly motorized (21 trucks, 5 cars, 6 horse wagons).
Anyway, as you can see, research is quite chaotic and speculative at this level...

By the way, who was commander of 1st company ?

Another question that comes up: who was Lt. Ehrenkrook? which unit was he from? etc.

Regards
Last edited by ATH on 04 Oct 2007 02:53, edited 8 times in total.

ATH
Member
Posts: 85
Joined: 25 Mar 2006 21:40
Location: Canada

Post by ATH » 04 Oct 2007 02:20

lufty1 wrote:ath - where did you get that doc?
NARA, T311 Roll 269 (H.Gr.Don), frame 321-357. Actually, it's an after-action report and an evaluation (with interrogations) of the actions on the 13 and 14.12.42 with the task to find the main cause/culprits over the failure to blow the bridge over the Don near Verkhne Chirskaja.

Arensburger
Member
Posts: 256
Joined: 06 Dec 2003 22:27
Location: Estonia

Post by Arensburger » 04 Oct 2007 07:59

ATH wrote:By the way, who was commander of 1st company ?
Another question that comes up: who was Lt. Ehrenkrook? which unit was he from? etc.

1. company of 36.-th Btl. was commanded by Oberleutenant Rudolf Laud.
NB! Actually a name in the memories of Lipping was Lt. von Ehrenkrook

Return to “WW2 in Eastern Europe”