Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 04 Mar 2007 12:48

In earlier set up it was possible to see display of sharp interest on the part of the American military experts from the NATO and as on the part of the American professor of military history Russel H.S. Stolfi to tactical methods and receptions of driving on a battlefield of the tanks troops used by generals of a Wermacht Balck and von Mellenthin in struggle with «Russian hordes» within WWII during battles on the river Chir.

Display of such interest can testify that experience of these skilful masters in affair struggle against repeatedly superior forces of east hordes is claimed and on nowadays.

It is possible to assume, that experience of generals of the Balck and the von Mellenthin on destruction of huge amount of Russian tanks in region of state farm «Red Star» (state farm No 79) is studied today by cadets of corresponding military colleges of all civilized countries, at least, in the countries of the block of the NATO.

If suddenly any from such cadets will glance on this thread of a forum it would be interesting to find out - whether so truly this my assumption concerning studying in military colleges of experience of generals Balck and von Mellenthin.

It is possible, that it will be interesting to these cadets to find out about some details of process of development by an army headquarters Soviet 5 TA the plan of offensive operation from bridgehead on the river Chir on a site between Surovikino and Nizhne-Chirskaja, that is in region of state farm «Red Star» (sovkhoz No 79).

Therefore below I shall give the text of battle orders of an army HQ of 5-th TA directly concerning this affair.

On a map offered below routes of movement are shown during a conduct of an operation «Uranus» all corpses, divisions and regiments of initial battle structure of 5-th TA (that is battle structure of this army for November, 19, 1942). Besides on a map is shown the initial place and finish route an arrangement of those corpses and divisions from structure of the next armies which were transferred by instruction STAVKA on November, 26, 1942 from them in structure of 5-th TA.

Note:
With the purpose of convenience in refer source the name of archive, number of fund and number of the inventory if it will be - TSAMO RF Fund 331 Inventory 5041 further will not be specified
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Post by Yuri » 04 Mar 2007 13:41

At the moment of the beginning of operation "Uranus", that is for November, 19, 1942, the Order of Battle 5th TA was such:

A) Mobile units:
- A tank troops: two tank corpses, one tank brigade and two flamethrower tank batallions - 1-th and 26-th TC, 8-n Guards separate TBr, 510-th and 511-th separate flamethrower Tank Batallions
- A cavalry a troops: one cavalry corps - 8-th CC (21-n, 55-n and 112-n mountain cavalry division);
- Motorcycle units: one motorcycle regiment - 8-th separate McR;
B) A rifle troops:
- Six rifle divisions: 14-n Guards, 47-n Guards, 50-n Guards, 119-n , 159-n and 346-n rifle divisions.
In total for November, 19, 1942 in these divisions, brigades, regiments and batallions there was 69 947 person of private soldiers and sergeants, including 14 571 cavalrymen.
(Source: file 10 Sheet 42)

Reasonably interesting detail: 124-n RD has received the honourable name «Guards» for two days prior to the beginning of operation «Uranus», on November, 17, 1942, and began to be called 50-n Guards RD.
If not to consider this fact (it can be observed in some works and memoirs of a western origin) that forces of 5-th TA increase for one rifle division over valid.
The same can be spoken and concerning 119-th RD and 216-th TBr which in December, 1942 have received honourable names "guards" and began to be called, accordingly: 54-n Guards RD and 15-n Guards TBr.

By November, 25 the first phase of operation «Uranus» has come to the end. By this moment of loss of 5-th TA were such:
Data on results of operations in offensive operation near Stalingrad
From November, 19 till November, 25, 1942
….
5th TA has lost 884 person killed and 4187 wounded, frost-bitten 13, was missing 7, patients 122, for other reasons 25 person. Total losses 5315 person.
(Source: file 20 «Raport army HQ 5TA»)

Rout during a conduct of an operation «Uranus» Romanian 3-rd and 4-rd armies and the encirclement in region of Stalingrad of 6-th Army and a part of forces of 4-th Tank Armies of Germans has radically changed conditions on fronts. New conditions has demanded to carry out an essential regrouping of forces of Red Army in region of Stalingrad.

So from structure of 5-th Tank Army in structure 21-st Army was transferred 26-th Tank Corps (thus, however, 216-n TBr continued to operate in structure of 5-th Tank Army). Hence, from 5-th TA in structure of 26-th TC has decreased 5 765 - 818 = 4 938 person of soldiers and sergeants.
Together with killed, disappeared without a message and wounded the number of troops on 5-th tank army decreased on 10,0 thousand person (if precisely, 10 253 persons).

On the other hand, from structure of 21-st Army in structure 5-th Tank Army were transferred:
3-rd Guards cavalry corps (5-n Guards, 6-th Guards and 32-n cavalry divisions) - the commander corps general Pliev and 333-n RD - the commander colonel Zherebin who has replaced in this post fallen ill colonel Matveev during this moment began.
The general Pliev's Cavalry Corps has arrived without all means of the strengthening, only three cavalry divisions. In battles with divisions XIV Pz. Korp and XI AK these cavalry divisions had the big losses - more than 6,0 person. Thus, to the bottom Chir in structure of 3-rd Guards corps has arrived no more than 9,0 person.
Hence, together with 7,0 thousand person of 333-rd RD 5-th TA has received from 21-st Army in addition about 16,0 thousand person.

From 65-th Army of the Don front in structure of 5-th Tank Army four rifle divisions, namely, 4-n Guards, 40-n Guards, 258-n and 321-n Rifle Divisions were transferred. According to the data received by the assistant of commander 5-th Tank Army by general - major Panfilov from commanders of these divisions, the aggregate number of this group of forces did not exceed 18,0 thousand person as each of four divisions had no more than 4,5 thousand person.
As well as 3-th Guards Cavalry Corps rifle divisions of 65-th Army in operation «Uranus» conducted battles with German units from structure XIV Pz. Korp and XI AK in a small meander of Don.

Hence, all these regroupings have resulted to that in 5-th Tank Army has received in addition no more than 34,0 thousand person, and has decreased from this army for all reasons about 10,0 person.
Now we can establish a number of troops of Red Army to which should hold front of defense on the river Chir and river Krivaja (river Curve).
Was present in 5-th TA by the beginning of operation "Uranus" - about 70,0 thousand person
Arrived in structure of again received divisions and cavalry corps - 34,0 thousand person.
It is lost in battles for operation "Uranus" and it is transferred to other armies - 10,0 thousand person
The balance will be equal 94,0 thousand person.

So, the following divisions should hold front of defense by current of the rivers Krivaja (Curve) and Chir.
A) A mobile troops:
- Tank units: one tank corps, two tank brigades, two separate flamethrower tank batallions - 1TC, 8 GSTBr, 216 TBr, 510 and 511 SFTB;
- Cavalry units: two Cavalry Corpses - 3 GCC and 8 CC;
- Motorcycle units: one motorcycle regiment - 8 SMcR
B) A rifle troops:
- Eleven rifle divisions - 14-n Guards, 159-n, 47-n Guards, 50-n Guards, 346-n, 40-n Guards, 321-n, 119-n, 333-n, 4-n Guards, 258-n rifle divisions.

In total in these Rifle Divisions, Tank Corps, Tank Brigades and Battalions, Cavalry Corpses and motorcycle regiment was present 94,0 thousand person with which it was necessary to close front of defense on the rivers Chir and Krivaja (Curve) in the extent more than 186 kms.
The distance is measured on a map of scale 1 : 200 000 (1 sm - 2 kms) from the north on the south on direct lines on sites river Krivaja (Curve): Jagodnyj (Berry) - Bokovskaja and sites river Chir: Bokovskaja - Varlamov - Oblivskaja - Surovikino - Rychkovskij

Note: for convenience we shall continue to take into account number of 14-th Guards Rifle Division which has held front of defense at a source of the river Krivaja (Curve) though by this time this division has been transferred to structure of 1-st Guards Army.

From all aforesaid follows, that Russian troops the rivers Krivaja (Curve) and Chir had on average density on 1 km of front no more than 500 person, including all infantrymen, cavalrymen, tankmen and motorcyclists, and as artillerymen, sappers, signalmen, chemists, physicians, cooks and even the veterinary from structure of rifle and cavalry divisions and tank corpses and brigades.

If to take in calculation only actually infantrymen and cavalrymen in this case the average density will make no more than 200 - 250 person on 1 km of front. It also was that «ocean of Russian hordes», spread in region to the west from Petrovka where in the morning on November, 29, 1942 there has arrived the new chief of an army headquarters of XLVIII Pz. Korp the von Mellenthin after the adventures in Northern Africa.
In it «ocean of Russian hordes», on expression the von Mellenthin, not numerous German tankmen from 22-nd Pz. Div hardly have not choked.

It is important to note, that on November, 26 when from the Stavka Supreme Command orders have arrived about redistribution of forces between the Soviet armies, taking part in operation «Uranus», transferred in structure 5-th TA from 21-st Army and 65-th Army of a division and corps were still very far from the river Chir. Their big part conducted battles with German Corpses of Pauljus's 6-th Army. The sites of front on the river Chir could hold these divisions in the first days of December.

Till this moment 5-th Tank Army should hold almost 200 kms front on the river Krivaja (Curve) and the river Chir six rifle divisions, one cavalry corps and one strongly weakened in battles at break of the Romanian defense by 1-st Tank Corps. That is up to the approach of new divisions on one rifle division it was necessary more than 30 kms of front.

By it also will be explained a pause in actions of Russian troops in region of the bottom watercourse Chir, that is in that place where in the beginning of December the army headquarters of XLVIII Pz. Korp has appeared led by the chief the lieutenant colonel von Mellenthin.
Let's remind, that the army headquarters of XLVIII Pz. Korp has arrived to this region to supervise over actions: again arrived 11-th Pz. Div of the general of the Balck, 336-th Infantry Division of general Lucht and 7-th Luftwaffe Field Division. Simultaneously XLVIII Pz. Korp has received some battle groups which have been formed here on a place, on a sample of battle group «ADAM» of colonel Adam.

It is interesting, that the American professor of military history Russel H.S. Stolfi tries to explain this calm in troop operations of Soviet 5-th tank army by a certain block of idea, in other words, dullness of the severe Russian commander general - lieutenant Romanenko.

FATAR - fighting anti-tank artillery regiment
GAR - gun artillery regiment
HAR - howitzer artillery regiment
MAR - mortar artillery regiment
GMR - Guards Mortar Regiment
SGMD - Guards Separate Mortar Divizion (divizion = battalion)
CC - Cavalry Corps
GCC - Guards Cavalry Corps

File 11 Sheet 19
[the Resolution:] «Affair
has arrived in affair 19.12"

Top secret
Copy No 12

Battle order No 0010 5TA Perelazovskij 26/11/42 «___» the map 100 000

1. The broken 4* army the Romanian is captivated by a part, by a part is destroyed. The stalingrads grouping of the opponent is surrounded.
The opponent with the purpose of assistance to the surrounded parts is increased throws reserves, creating one grouping in region Bokovskaja and the second grouping in region Nizhne-Chirskaja. Troop transportation by rail in region Surovikino is simultaneously marked.

2. 5TA has a task of creation of front on the river Chir. In the center and on the left flank of army to cut with active actions the railway MOROZOVSKAJA - STALINGRAD and strongly to keep the grasped boundary. Border of army on the right and at the left former.

3. 159 RD with 1243th FATAR, 312 GAR to hold and strongly to defend a strip Bokovskaja, Illarionov, Kamenka, Dulinskij.
Border at the left: /exclude/ Rubashkin, Illarionov, Gusynka.

4. 50 GRD with 534th FATAR, 123th HAR to hold and strongly to defend a strip Illarionov, Chernyshevskaja, Malakhov. Border at the left: /exclude/ Kutejnikov, Chernyshevskaja, Berezjanka, height 133, branch of state farm 86.

5. 346 RD with 150th FATAR, 396th GAR to hold and strongly to defend a strip /exclude/ Chernyshevskaja, a mouth of the river Mashka, Osinovskij.
Border at the left: Leonov, Gusynka, the river Mashka

6. 8th ÑÑ with 174th FATAR, 321 RD to hold and strongly to defend a strip Parshin, Oblivskaja, Frolov. Border at the left: Elkin, Oblivskaja, Chernovskij. An interval a mouth of the river Mashka, Parshin to provide with separate groups. 8th CC to have the main forces in region Kireev, Rjabovskij, Kovylinskij, Frolov. 321 RD - Oblivskaja. To seize an advance party Chernyshkovskij. Investigation of a message on boundaries: Morozovskaja - Verkhne-Gnutov.

7. 119 RD about 107th mortar regiment, with 179th FATAR by 10.00 27.11 to destroy the opponent, to seize Surovikino and strongly to keep him behind itself.
To conduct investigation along the railway up to Kovylinskij, enter connection with the parts, holding Oblivskaja.

8. 333 RD at night with 27 on 28/11/42 to destroy the opponent, to seize and strongly to keep Rychkovskij.

9. «258» RD 27/11/42 to leave for region Tuzov, Buratskij and by 9.00 28/11/42 to hold defense a boundary of the river Chir on a site Sviridovskij, Eritskij and strongly to keep him.

10. 3th GCC in interaction with 1TC to seize RYCHKOVSKIJ.
Further to seize Verchne-Chirskij, Nizhne-Chirskaja. To seize advance parties Tormosin. Investigation of a message up to Gorodka.

11. 1th TC with 33th FATAR together with 3th GCC to seize Rychkovskij, Verchne-Chirskij. Further to seize Âåðõíå-Ñîëîíîöîâñêèé (it is correct - Verchne-Solonovskij) and strongly to keep him.

12. A reserve: 47 GRD and 8th GSTBr in region Pronin, 8th SMcR with 481th FATAR, 216 TBr in region Petrovka, «___ »** RD in region Nesterkin, Samokhin.

13. Readiness of defense 18.00 27/11/42

14. To all connections after occupation of defense area to present to an army headquarters the schema of defense.

15. An army headquarters - Perelazovskij. VPU (an auxiliary control post) - Savinskij.

Commanding 5TA
The general - lieutenant
/ROMANENKO/

The member of the military council
Guards the divisional commissioner
/TUMANJAN/

The chief of an army headquarters 5TA
The general - major
/DANILOV/

TRULY: the Chief of an operations section
The colonel
/OSTRENKO/

12 copies
It is dispatched under the list
* - correctly the Romanian 3-n Army
** - by the moment of the edition of the order the staff of army yet did not know number of a division which should be transferred from structure of 65-th Army of the Don front. The 4-n Guards Rifle Division has been transferred.

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Post by Yuri » 04 Mar 2007 17:47

Let's make calculation a correlation of forces of the opposing sides to Chir front to the beginning of December, 1942.
The Order of Battle of Soviet 5-th tank army and her number of 94,0 thousand person have been determined above. At the big desire to them it is possible to add forces of two more rifle divisions from structure of 1-st Guards army (203-n and 197-n RD), working to the west of a boundary of the river Krivaja.

Number of Romanian 3-rd Army, after withdrawal of her escaped divisions for the river Chir and river Krivaja, we shall define according to this source:
http://www.worldwar2.ro/operatii/?article=12
Because the Soviets were busy consolidating their positions, the front line stabilized. The 3rd Army, with the units that had escaped (7th, 9th, 11th Infantry, 7th Cavalry and 1st Armored Divisions, in total 83,000 men), was subordinated to Army Group "Hollidt" and occupied a line along the river Chir.
Let's assume, that only from 83,0 thousand escaped Romanian soldiers and officers, only 60, 0 thousand have been included in structure of battle divisions (or battle groups). (the Note: the Romanian soldiers who have receded for the river Chir and officers were included as and in structure of German divisions).

Now we shall look, what forces were available in structure of German divisions, regiments and battle groups.

The front on the river Krivaja and river Chir was held with the following German divisions, regiments and battle groups (under the order from the north on the south):
- 62 ID and 294 ID - not less than 20,0 thousand person (before arrival to Chir these divisions have received updating up to full staff, documents with such data have been grasped in 515 IR)
- 22 Pz. D - 5,0 thousand and about 50 tanks (the division had only one motor-infantry a regiment-129 PzGR, and in the previous battles there were serious losses).
- 354 IR 213 ID - 5,0 thousand (each company of a regiment has received a security, building or police batallion, in essence 354 IR colonel Rekovski has turned to an infantry brigade).
- Gr. SPANG - 5,0 thousand (has consisten mainly of security and building batallions);
- Gr. STAHEL - 10,0 thousand (the group has consisten mainly of air-defence regiments, divisional and batallions of ground service of air stations);
- 8 LFD - 6,0 thousand (the division had only four infantry batallions)
- Gr. SCHMIDT - 3,5 thousand (has consisten of six batallions)
- KG. WEIKE - 1,5 thousand and 18 tanks (has consisten of four batallions and 1-st tank company of 301-st tank batallion)
- KG. SELLE - 1,0 thousand person of an infantry and besides had strong artillery group and tanks.
- 7 LFD - 10,0 thousand (has consisten of two infantry regiments on three batallions in everyone - only six infantry batallions)
- 336 ID - 15,0 thousand (before arrival to Chir has received updating and as has received on effort of 3-rd heavy air-defence regiment of and 94-th ersatz-batallion)
Gr. STUMPFELD - 8,0 thousand
Gr. ADAM - 10,0 thousand (was strongest of all battle groups working in region of state farm 79)
11 Pz. Div - 12,0 thousand has arrived from a reserve.
9 LFD - 2,0 thousand (to Chir there has arrived only a part of a division, apparently, only one regiment which since December, 9 had the site of front more to the left of positions 7 LFD).

In total, thus, in German divisions, regiments and the battle groups working on Chir front, there was not less than 112,0 thousand person.
The aggregate number of the Romanian and German battle troops concentrated to the beginning of December, 1942 on the rivers Krivaja and Chir (from Jagodnyj (Berry) in the north up to Rychkovskij in the south), made 172,0 thousand person.

Apparently, it is necessary to have rich imagination that at a ratio 172,0 : 94,0 for the benefit of a Wermacht and his allies to assert about presence on the river Chir of "ocean of Russian hordes », overflowing, ostensibly, not numerous force German tank divisions.

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Post by Qvist » 06 Mar 2007 15:57

1. Units:

- Most of 294.ID was inside the Stalingrad pocket, according to Werner Haupt, though I have not been able to confirm this elsewhere.

- 213. ID was in fact 213. Sicherungsdivision, of a considerably weaker establishement than an ID. And I suppose you mean that each batallion of the regiment had received an extra company, not the other way around.

- 8.LW-FD is still showed as being in transit to the front as late as 22 December on the OKH Kriegsgliederung

- If 7.LW-Fd had 10,000 men, it was unusually strong for an LW-FD

- That 336.ID had received an Ersatz batallion priori to arriving does not neccessarily mean that it was close to full strength. An Ersatzbatallion normally contained 500-1,000 men, and it was quite common for divisions to be several thousand men understrength at this time.

- Elements of both 11.PzD and 336.ID was still in transport as of 2 December, according to the OKH Tagesmeldung of that day.

- 9.LW-FD was with AOK 18 of Heeresgruppe Nord at this time. I find no mention anywhere that one of its regiments were to have been sent elsewhere.

2. How do you define "German and Soviet forces on the Chir"? Your present collection of units seems to be scattered around on AG Hoth, 3.rum.Armee and AA Hollidt by 22 December at least. According to Glantz, "From the Don to the Dnepr", AG Hollidt/3.rum.Army had a strength of 110,000 German and rumanian soldiers on 15 December.

3. Are you certain that none of the many Kampfgruppen you list are partly or wholly constituted by elements from the listed divisions?

4. Most importantly, what is the source for the strength estimations of the various units?
Apparently, it is necessary to have rich imagination that at a ratio 172,0 : 94,0 for the benefit of a Wermacht and his allies to assert about presence on the river Chir of "ocean of Russian hordes », overflowing, ostensibly, not numerous force German tank divisions.
Well, it's just that this doesn't appear to be a meaningful ratio. According to your pown posted sources (Stolfi), 5TA was engaged not against the wide array of forces you describe in the above, but just against 336.ID, 11.PzD and 7.LW-FD. The same account also states that the 5TA counterattack into the flank of the German drive was only one element of the Soviet forces on the Chir - additionally, forces were shifted from other parts of SW front to oppose the German drive, and no doubt quite a few were also present as the German attack began.

cheers

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Post by Yuri » 07 Mar 2007 00:25

Qvist wrote: 1. Units:

- Most of 294. ID was inside the Stalingrad pocket, according to Werner Haupt, though I have not been able to confirm this elsewhere.
These data incorrect.
294 ID there has arrived on a boundary of the rivers the Curve and Chir to region Bokovskaja in full battle structure, namely: 513 IR, 514 IR, 515 IR, 294 AR and all special units (communication, sappers and other). This division for November, 19 was in operative reserve OKH on a site of 8-th Italian army. During this period of unit 294 ID have received updating up to full TO*E. Thus, by the beginning of operation "Uranus" the division had more than 14,0 thousand person. However, attempt XVII AK at the end of November the beginning of December to make the way to since a boundary the Curve to Perelazovskij has resulted to that 294 ID has lost many people. Therefore actual force of this division by the beginning of December is accepted less - all 10,0 thousand person.

In Bokovskaja 294-n ID have been subordinated Romanian artillery units. However, number of soldiers in such Romanian units has been taken already into account{has been already discounted} in an aggregate number of 3-rd Romanian army - that is these Romanian units are taken into account{discounted} among 60,0 thousand included in battle part Romanian.

Data of German sources concerning battle and numerical structure of the forces working in country between two rivers Chir and Don during carrying out with Red Army of operations "Uranus" and "Saturn", cannot be recognized unconditionally authentic. I can give some examples of errors in German sources but only after I shall complete transfer of documents on fight in state farm « Red Star » (No 79).
Qvist wrote: - 213. ID was in fact 213. Sicherungsdivision, of a considerably weaker establishement than an ID. And I suppose you mean that each batallion of the regiment had received an extra company, not the other way around.
The 1-n company 1/354 IR 213 IR has received 4-th security batallion having four companies, number of each company 125-135 person. Thus, the commander of 1-companies ober-lieutenant Pemat has received under the command in addition to 150-200 Germans of the company of 320-360 more Germans, 100 Romanian and 80 Ukrainian from structure of 4-th security batallion. It means, that on the fact ober-lieutenant Pemat commanded an infantry batallion.
And 1-st batallion 354 IR major Klivits's on the number can be equated to a regiment.
Excluding for the mentioned above reason at the rate of all arrived in 354 IR the Romanian (about 1000 person), we receive, that according to the most conservative estimates on the river Chir in structure of 354 IR was 5,0 thousand person of Germans and Ukrainian, from which about 800 person Ukrainian.
Such number 354 IR gives the basis to speak, that the colonel von Rekovsky on the river Chir commanded an infantry brigade.
Qvist wrote: - 8. LW-FD is still showed as being in transit to the front as late as 22 December on the OKH Kriegsgliederung
This field division Luftwaffe has arrived on front to region Oblivskaja on December, 1, 1942. 8 LFD had four infantry batallions and in essence was an infantry brigade. Already to the middle of December from initial structure 8 LFD a little that remained. By this time for restoration of fighting capability it{she} needed solid updating. And such updating has arrived in the middle of December from deep rear.
« 19/12 in region to the south Kovylinskij (it is arranged to the east from Oblivskaja - Yuri) is grasped captured a special batallion arrived 17/12/42 of Zaporozhye (city on the river Dnepr on Ukraine - Yuri) on motor vehicles for updating 8 air field divisions in quantity{amount} 800 person, collected of different units, besides the summary batallion which has arrived 16/12 in region Morozovskaja from Magdeburg in amount 600 person ».
(Source: file 24 p. 199)
Apparently only for December, 16 and 17 8-n LFD has received updating 1400 person.
8 LFD was first of divisions of the given type, appeared at the front in region of Stalingrad.
After 8 LFD from December, 3 till December, 6 on the bottom Chir has arrived 7 LFD.
Qvist wrote: 3. Are you certain that none of the many Kampfgruppen you list are partly or wholly constituted by elements from the listed divisions?
Any of the specified battle groups was not part listed divisions. Confirmation to that we find in the staff documents grasped at the opponent.
Qvist wrote: Well, it's just that this does not appear to be a meaningful ratio. According to your pown posted sources (Stolfi), 5TA was engaged not against the wide array of forces you describe in the above, but just against 336. ID, 11. PzD and 7. LW-FD. The same account also states that the 5TA counterattack into the flank of the German drive was only one element of the Soviet forces on the Chir - additionally, forces were shifted from other parts of SW front to oppose the German drive, and no doubt quite a few were also present as the German attack began.
Here I can repeat only. The specified forces 5 TA in amount of 94,0 thousand person (include forces 14-n GRD) acted a boundary of the rivers the Krivaja (Curve) and Chir of a front line extent of 186 kms from settlement Jagodnyj (a source of the river the Curve) in the north up to the railway bridge through Don at settlement Rychkovskij in the south. On this front the opponent (Germans and Romanians) had: Rum I AK, German XVII AK, Rum II AK, rest German XLVIII Pz. Korp (the first structure of this corps on average Chir in region Chernyshevskaja, Petrovka where the von Mellenthin has arrived in the morning on November, 29), 384 IR213ID, Gr. Spang, Gr. Stahel, 8 LW-FD, new structure XLVIII Pz. Korp include Gr. Stumpfeld and Gr. Adam (the army headquarters von Mellenthin's has arrived to region of the bottom watercourse Chir on December, 4, 1942).
Qvist wrote: but just against 336. ID, 11. PzD and 7. LW-FD
These three German divisions acted right (western) coast of the river Chir. Here they operated in close communication with three battle groups - KG. WEKE, KG. SELLE, Gr. STUMPFELD which aggregate number for December, 2 was not less than 10500 person. On western coast Chir from 5TA operated - 333 RD, 1 TC, 6 GCD and 5 GCD. In total Russian had here less than 20 thousand person. Forces of Germans in the specified three divisions and three battle groups made not less than 45 thousand person. Besides Germans had the superiority in tanks and aircraft. During battle in state farm « Red Star » (No 79) force of Germans (the von Knobelsdorff, the von Mellenthin, the Balck and Ëþõò) were twice higher than forces Russian - both in people, and in tanks.


I prepare the description real (that is completely based on archival documents) of battle and the map of battle in state farm « Red Star » (No 79).
Qvist wrote: 2. How do you define " German and Soviet forces on the Chir "? Your present collection of units seems to be scattered around on AG Hoth, 3.rum. Armee and AA Hollidt by 22 December at least. According to Glantz, " From the Don to the Dnepr ", AG Hollidt/3.rum. Army had a strength of 110,000 German and rumanian soldiers on 15 December.
The figure at Glantz will be correct provided that he does not take into account in these 110,000 forces 4 Pz. Army (Hot), working in region the bottom Chir, that is at the front Surovikino - Lisinskij - Rychkovskij. Differently Glantz the rights if not takes into account forces XLVIII Pz. Korp which made not less than 60,000 person. My figure 172,000 is forces of Germans and the Romanian against forces of 5-th TA, and in the beginning of December this Soviet army acted a boundary of the rivers the Curve and Chir against AA "Hollidt", rum 3. A (Dumitrescu) and XLVIII Pz. Korp (von Knobelsdorff and von Mellenthin).
Besides Glantz gives the data for December, 15, hence, it is necessary to take into account losses as a minimum for 8-10 days. And losses for this period of loss at Germans and the Romanian on the river Chir were rather essential.
With the account it is told, it is possible to speak, that on the river Chir the correlation of forces was more than 172 : 94 for the benefit of Germans and the Romanian.

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Post by Qvist » 07 Mar 2007 10:24

I appreciate the effort you have put into this, but it seems that there are quite a few question marks involved still. Since you make no mention regarding 9.LW-FD, I take it we agree that that it should not be included in this context? Apart from that:

1. First of all, I am still wondering what is the sources for these strength estimations?

2.
Here I can repeat only. The specified forces 5 TA in amount of 94,0 thousand person (include forces 14-n GRD) acted a boundary of the rivers the Krivaja (Curve) and Chir of a front line extent of 186 kms from settlement Jagodnyj (a source of the river the Curve) in the north up to the railway bridge through Don at settlement Rychkovskij in the south. On this front the opponent (Germans and Romanians) had: Rum I AK, German XVII AK, Rum II AK, rest German XLVIII Pz. Korp (the first structure of this corps on average Chir in region Chernyshevskaja, Petrovka where the von Mellenthin has arrived in the morning on November, 29), 384 IR213ID, Gr. Spang, Gr. Stahel, 8 LW-FD, new structure XLVIII Pz. Korp include Gr. Stumpfeld and Gr. Adam (the army headquarters von Mellenthin's has arrived to region of the bottom watercourse Chir on December, 4, 1942).
We are talking about the attack of 5 TA across the Chir 2 to 11 December, right? According to Glantz, this was opposed by XXXXVIII PzCorps, with the previously mentioned elements (11.PzD, 336.ID, 7.LW-FD) plus some parts of 403.Sich.D. - in all, perhaps 40,000 men. He also writes that "As a result of 5 TA's failures, on 9 December Stavka created 5 SA (from 10 Reserve Army) and ordered it to join 5 TA in its attacks beginning on 11 December toward Tormosin and Tatsinskaya." He also mentions that the defenses on the Chir were additionally manned by 51A and 57A. Hence it would appear that you are listing a far wider array of the German forces than what was engaged against 5 TA alone.
So, the following divisions should hold front of defense by current of the rivers Krivaja (Curve) and Chir.
A) A mobile troops:
- Tank units: one tank corps, two tank brigades, two separate flamethrower tank batallions - 1TC, 8 GSTBr, 216 TBr, 510 and 511 SFTB;
- Cavalry units: two Cavalry Corpses - 3 GCC and 8 CC;
- Motorcycle units: one motorcycle regiment - 8 SMcR
B) A rifle troops:
- Eleven rifle divisions - 14-n Guards, 159-n, 47-n Guards, 50-n Guards, 346-n, 40-n Guards, 321-n, 119-n, 333-n, 4-n Guards, 258-n rifle divisions.
Glantz give slightly lower figures - 10 Rifle Divisions (including 4 transferred from 21 and 65A), two cavalry divisions, One TC, 1 TB and 8 Artillery regiments. He also gives a lower strength estimate than you do (70,000), but this may refer only to the forces in Romanenko's attack sector: "With this force Romanenko was to attack in a 60 kilometer sector from Oblivskaya to Rychovskii against the units of the German XXXXVIII Panzer Corps. " (My emphasis).

3.
The figure at Glantz will be correct provided that he does not take into account in these 110,000 forces 4 Pz. Army (Hot), working in region the bottom Chir, that is at the front Surovikino - Lisinskij - Rychkovskij. Differently Glantz the rights if not takes into account forces XLVIII Pz. Korp which made not less than 60,000 person.
Uh, XLVIII Pz Corps (or, to write it correctly, XXXXVIII Pz Corps) is exactly what he does take into account. This, as said, appears to have had 11.PzD, 336.ID, 7.LW-FD and elements of 403.Sich.D. under command, and that does not add up to 60,000 men. Why would he take into account 4th PzA?! They were were opposite 51A.

In short - the same applies here as for any sensible force comparison - you include forces from each side that were opposing each other. You seem to be adding the whole of German strength along the Chir river, calculated by uncertain means for which I have not yet seen any sources, and comparing it to just one of the Soviet formations present along that front. That is a meaningless comparison.

4. Units:
294 ID there has arrived on a boundary of the rivers the Curve and Chir to region Bokovskaja in full battle structure, namely: 513 IR, 514 IR, 515 IR, 294 AR and all special units (communication, sappers and other). This division for November, 19 was in operative reserve OKH on a site of 8-th Italian army. During this period of unit 294 ID have received updating up to full TO*E. Thus, by the beginning of operation "Uranus" the division had more than 14,0 thousand person. However, attempt XVII AK at the end of November the beginning of December to make the way to since a boundary the Curve to Perelazovskij has resulted to that 294 ID has lost many people. Therefore actual force of this division by the beginning of December is accepted less - all 10,0 thousand person.
Source for that is? The OKH Tagesmeldungen in early December refer consistently only to a "Regimentsgruppe" of 294.ID (which is what Haupt states is the remains that 8.LW-FD fought together with after it arrived). On the other hand, it is simply listed as "294." on the 22.12. Gliederung. Seems still a bit uncertain to me, but it depends on the nature of your source.
Data of German sources concerning battle and numerical structure of the forces working in country between two rivers Chir and Don during carrying out with Red Army of operations "Uranus" and "Saturn", cannot be recognized unconditionally authentic. I can give some examples of errors in German sources but only after I shall complete transfer of documents on fight in state farm « Red Star » (No 79).
What sort of errors? And what can you compare it to in order establish if they are correct or not? And what do you mean by "German sources"? Books published by Germans, or German documentation? If books, which books? I don't think bboks by German authors are either more or less prone to mistakes than those of any other nationality, but there doesn't seem much point to me to speak of them as if they were a collective entity.
The 1-n company 1/354 IR 213 IR has received 4-th security batallion having four companies, number of each company 125-135 person. Thus, the commander of 1-companies ober-lieutenant Pemat has received under the command in addition to 150-200 Germans of the company of 320-360 more Germans, 100 Romanian and 80 Ukrainian from structure of 4-th security batallion. It means, that on the fact ober-lieutenant Pemat commanded an infantry batallion.
And 1-st batallion 354 IR major Klivits's on the number can be equated to a regiment.
Excluding for the mentioned above reason at the rate of all arrived in 354 IR the Romanian (about 1000 person), we receive, that according to the most conservative estimates on the river Chir in structure of 354 IR was 5,0 thousand person of Germans and Ukrainian, from which about 800 person Ukrainian.
Such number 354 IR gives the basis to speak, that the colonel von Rekovsky on the river Chir commanded an infantry brigade.
There was no IR 354 in 213.Sich.D. It had two regiments, 318.Sicherungsregiment and 57.Landesschützenregiment. So whatever source (which, please?) you have used here would seem to a little unclear on unit identification. IR 354 was part of 213.ID, until that division was stood down after the French campaign, perhaps that is the source for it being referred to in this way. Otherwise, thanks for clarification - it means then that the companies of 1 batallion had received a batallion's worth of reinforcements? Source?
This field division Luftwaffe has arrived on front to region Oblivskaja on December, 1, 1942. 8 LFD had four infantry batallions and in essence was an infantry brigade. Already to the middle of December from initial structure 8 LFD a little that remained. By this time for restoration of fighting capability it{she} needed solid updating. And such updating has arrived in the middle of December from deep rear.
Source? I find nothing more precise than "December", but as said, the OKH Gliederung off 22 December is still listing it as "in antransport" to HG Don. Also, I have the OKH Tagesmeldungen for the first days of December, which discuss in detail the transport and arrival of units. For instance, it specifies exactly how many trains have arrived and where, for 11.PzD and 336.ID which were just finishing their antransport at this time. They also mention 7.LW-FD being in transport to HG Don at the time. There is however not any reference to 8.LW-FD, which there should have been if the division was finishing its transport in the first days of December, or if it was moving up at that time. There is also not any reference to it in the discussion of present forces in the Tagesmeldung.

Quote:
« 19/12 in region to the south Kovylinskij (it is arranged to the east from Oblivskaja - Yuri) is grasped captured a special batallion arrived 17/12/42 of Zaporozhye (city on the river Dnepr on Ukraine - Yuri) on motor vehicles for updating 8 air field divisions in quantity{amount} 800 person, collected of different units, besides the summary batallion which has arrived 16/12 in region Morozovskaja from Magdeburg in amount 600 person ».
(Source: file 24 p. 199)
Apparently only for December, 16 and 17 8-n LFD has received updating 1400 person.
8 LFD was first of divisions of the given type, appeared at the front in region of Stalingrad.
After 8 LFD from December, 3 till December, 6 on the bottom Chir has arrived 7 LFD.
Sorry, file 24 p.199 of what? 16.LW-FD started its formation process on 1 December, and 17.LW-Fd at about the same time, so it is not exactly a surprise that they received men. :) Neither division, incidentally, was ever on the Eastern Front. EDIT: Sorry, I appear to have misunderstood you. What you mean is that 8.LW-FD received 1,400 men just on 16 and 17 December?
Any of the specified battle groups was not part listed divisions. Confirmation to that we find in the staff documents grasped at the opponent.
I would be much obliged if you could quote them, and what they say about composition and strength.

cheers

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 07 Mar 2007 14:42

Qvist wrote: There was no IR 354 in 213. Sich. D. It had two regiments, 318. Sicherungsregiment and 57. Landesschützenregiment. So whatever source (which, please?) you have used here would seem to a little unclear on unit identification. IR 354 was part of 213. ID, until that division was stood down after the French campaign. Otherwise, thanks for clarification - it means then that the companies of 1 batallion had received a batallion's worth of reinforcements?
In the beginning of November, 1942 213 ID was in sector of 2-nd Hungarian army - region Lisichansk.
354 IR 213 ID has been thrown in sector of 3-rd Romanian army and on November, 17, 1942 has arrived to region Morozovskaja - the regiment commander the colonel von Recovsky.
Colonel von Recovsky's Regiment should enter structure XLVIII Pz. Korp (general Heim) together with 22 Pz. Div, rum.1 Arm. Div and 62 ID. In connection with rout of front of defense of Romanian 3-rd army, 354 IR 213 ID has received the order to hold defense on the river Chir in region Varlamov where has arrived on November, 24, 1942.
By the way, from indications captured 354 IR 213 ID it is visible, that colonel von Recovsky's Regiment was not simply Infantry, and it was Grenader-Infantry Regiment. Therefore to all batallions which were poured in in structure of this regiment on the river Chir, the name grenadierial was appropriated{given}. So, for example, mentioned by me before 4-th security batallion after it is transferred to structure of 1-st company of 1-st batallion 354 IR 213 ID (comander company ober-lieutenant Pemat), has received to the name a prefix grenadierial.
Qvist wrote:
Yuri wrote: «19/12 in region to the south Kovylinskij (it is arranged to the east from Oblivskaja - Yuri) is grasped captured a special batallion arrived 17/12/42 of Zaporozhye (city on the river Dnepr on Ukraine - Yuri) on motor vehicles for updating 8 air field divisions in quantity {amount} 800 person, collected of different units, besides the summary batallion which has arrived 16/12 in region Morozovskaja from Magdeburg in amount 600 person ».
(Source: file 24 p. 199)
Apparently only for December, 16 and 17 8-n LFD has received updating 1400 person.
8 LFD was first of divisions of the given type, appeared at the front in region of Stalingrad.
After 8 LFD from December, 3 till December, 6 on the bottom Chir has arrived 7 LFD.
Sorry, file 24 p.199 of what? 16. LW-FD started its formation process on 1 December, and 17. LW-Fd at about the same time, so it is not exactly a surprise that they received men. Neither division, incidentally, was ever on the Eastern Front.
Strange … about what 16 LW-FD and 17 LW-FD you mention? I anywhere did not specify divisions with such numbers. Read, please, attentively that at me is written.
I wrote, that:
a/ 8 LW-FD has arrived to region Oblivskaja on December, 1, 1942 and that in this division was four batallions of an infantry. Two batallions were on bridgehead on northern coast Chir near settlement Sekretev. And other two batallions were to northeast from Oblivskaja. To the middle of December of unit it is field division Luftwaffe had serious losses.
b/ On December, 16 and 17 from deep rear, namely, from city of Zaporozhye / Ukraine / and from the city of Magdeburg / Germany / here to Oblivskaja on the river Chir has arrived 1400 person for completion of losses 8 LW-FD.

Having looked once again attentively everything, that was written above, I could not see, where by me would be mentioned in what or a kind 16 LW-FD and 17 LW-FD. If it somehow follows from my post I bring apologies.

I do not have data that 8 LW-FD was conveyed from the city of Milau /Poland/ in region Oblivskaja (river Chir) by rail. However, I have data that units of this field division Luftwaffe were thrown from Poland by transport planes.

Above I have warned, that for reduction I shall not specify the name of archive, number of fund of storage and number of the inventory if it will be: TSAMO RF, found 331, inventory 5041. I shall specify only number of a file (folder) and number of page (sheet).
Qvist wrote: We are talking about the attack of 5 TA across the Chir 2 to 11 December, right? According to Glantz, this was opposed by XXXXVIII PzCorps, with the previously mentioned elements (11. PzD, 336. ID, 7. LW-FD) plus some parts of 403. Sich. D. - in all, perhaps 40,000 men. He also writes that " As a result of 5 TA's failures, on 9 December Stavka created 5 SA (from 10 Reserve Army) and ordered it to join 5 TA in its attacks beginning on 11 December toward Tormosin and Tatsinskaya. " He also mentions that the defenses on the Chir were additionally manned by 51A and 57A. Hence it would appear that you are listing a far wider array of the German forces than what was engaged against 5 TA alone.
Why you have decided, what here there is a speech only about December, 11? I did not do such applications.
Into my intentions enters to show on the basis of documents the valid course of battles on the river Chir. That is, all battles, which the von Mellenthin mentions in memoirs (look book the F.V. von Mellenthin «Tank battles. 1939-1945»), and not just about December, 11, 1942.

The purpose - to try to establish under archival documents, whether there are bases for experts of the NATO to trust all that after an end of the war wrote about in the books and spoke in the speeches former generals of a Wermacht the Balck and the von Mellenthin .


And, by the way, not absolutely clearly, why date on December, 11 is chosen?


Running forward, I can certify, that I shall such documents where the exact and detailed data with the indication of a number of personnel and arms of divisions and the regiments battling on the river Chir in November - December, 1942 are given are published also.

I shall be glad, if respected Glantz will use in articles documents which I am going to publish here. These documents are of interest for everyone who wants to know about battle of Stalingrad under documents, instead of under the doubtful contents of memoirs of former generals.

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Post by Qvist » 07 Mar 2007 18:02

Hello Yuri
In the beginning of November, 1942 213 ID was in sector of 2-nd Hungarian army - region Lisichansk.
354 IR 213 ID has been thrown in sector of 3-rd Romanian army and on November, 17, 1942 has arrived to region Morozovskaja - the regiment commander the colonel von Recovsky.
Colonel von Recovsky's Regiment should enter structure XLVIII Pz. Korp (general Heim) together with 22 Pz. Div, rum.1 Arm. Div and 62 ID. In connection with rout of front of defense of Romanian 3-rd army, 354 IR 213 ID has received the order to hold defense on the river Chir in region Varlamov where has arrived on November, 24, 1942.
By the way, from indications captured 354 IR 213 ID it is visible, that colonel von Recovsky's Regiment was not simply Infantry, and it was Grenader-Infantry Regiment. Therefore to all batallions which were poured in in structure of this regiment on the river Chir, the name grenadierial was appropriated{given}. So, for example, mentioned by me before 4-th security batallion after it is transferred to structure of 1-st company of 1-st batallion 354 IR 213 ID (comander company ober-lieutenant Pemat), has received to the name a prefix grenadierial.
There was no 213.ID in December 1942. 213.ID was demobilised after the french campaign in 1940, and then called up and used to form 213.Sicherungsdivision in March 1941. According to Nafziger, 213.Sich.D.'s regiments were 318.Sicherungsrgt and 57 Landesschützenrgt. Checking further I see that Haupt however refers to IR354 and IR 318, and Nazfiger also lists several others in use at different points - clearly, it changed its regimental designations frequently. But there is anyway only a point of detail invooved here - that this division was a Sicherungsdivision, not an ID. Incidentally, there's no practical difference between an IR and Gren.Rgt., the terms were used more or less interchangeably.
Strange … about what 16 LW-FD and 17 LW-FD you mention? I anywhere did not specify divisions with such numbers. Read, please, attentively that at me is written.
I wrote, that:
a/ 8 LW-FD has arrived to region Oblivskaja on December, 1, 1942 and that in this division was four batallions of an infantry. Two batallions were on bridgehead on northern coast Chir near settlement Sekretev. And other two batallions were to northeast from Oblivskaja. To the middle of December of unit it is field division Luftwaffe had serious losses.
b/ On December, 16 and 17 from deep rear, namely, from city of Zaporozhye / Ukraine / and from the city of Magdeburg / Germany / here to Oblivskaja on the river Chir has arrived 1400 person for completion of losses 8 LW-FD.

Having looked once again attentively everything, that was written above, I could not see, where by me would be mentioned in what or a kind 16 LW-FD and 17 LW-FD. If it somehow follows from my post I bring apologies.

I do not have data that 8 LW-FD was conveyed from the city of Milau /Poland/ in region Oblivskaja (river Chir) by rail. However, I have data that units of this field division Luftwaffe were thrown from Poland by transport planes.
Sorry, that was me misunderstanding what you wrote - did you see my edit in the above post?
Above I have warned, that for reduction I shall not specify the name of archive, number of fund of storage and number of the inventory if it will be: TSAMO RF, found 331, inventory 5041. I shall specify only number of a file (folder) and number of page (sheet).
Well, so far I do not even know if your information comes from documents or books. My point is basically that there is nothing useful I can say about your info if I do not know what it is based on. So, I would appreciate it if you could explain by what method and on the basis of what information you have arrived at the various strength figures. TsAMO file codes does not tell me anything anyway, but the issuing agency, date and report name of the German documents do. Just to take an example, you write that "62 ID and 294 ID - not less than 20,0 thousand person".Where does that come from? Do you have a document called something like "Stärken, HG Don Stand 2.12.42" that gives the combined strength of the two divisions as "rd. 20,000"? Or do you have a strength quoted in an earlier report, and then other reports listing subesequent losses that you have deducted? What sort of strength are we talking about anyway? Verpflegungsstärke? Gefechtsstärke? Iststärke? Or do you have this from some book that claims to base that on captured documents? If so which book? In whort - you need to show how the figures have been arrived at, and if you have documents, you need to quote them, ie, explain what exactly they say - preferably in the original language. Even nuances in terminology can have considerable effects.
Why you have decided, what here there is a speech only about December, 11? I did not do such applications.
Into my intentions enters to show on the basis of documents the valid course of battles on the river Chir. That is, all battles, which the von Mellenthin mentions in memoirs (look book the F.V. von Mellenthin «Tank battles. 1939-1945»), and not just about December, 11, 1942.
No, you misunderstand. I was asking if the fighting we are dealing with here is 5TA's counterattack against XXXXVIII Pz Corps, which started on 2 December and ended on the 11th. Any force comparison has to refer to a specific point in time, otherwise there is no comparability. If you prefer a different point than 2 December, no problem, but you have to decide one. You did not state anything more precise than "beginniing of December".
Running forward, I can certify, that I shall such documents where the exact and detailed data with the indication of a number of personnel and arms of divisions and the regiments battling on the river Chir in November - December, 1942 are given are published also.
You mean all of the info you have posted is 100% rooted in rock-solid interpretation of documents? Sorry Yuri, it's not that simple. From your own words, it is clear that most of the strengths you quote have been estimated, see these: "62 ID and 294 ID - not less than 20,0 thousand person....22 Pz. D - 5,0 thousand and about 50 tanks.....etc etc". Also, there is the question of the inclusion of 9.LW-FD which manifestly was somewhere else at the time, as well as the lingering question marks over other units quoted. If you have documents giving precise strength figures, please quote them. If you have not, please explain how you have arrived at the strengths. I cannot help much without knowing more about the sources. And, with no disrepect intended, there is also the possibility that documents have not been interpreted correctly. You would not be the first.

Incidentally, I had a look at Glantz' force overview for December, and he also contradicts your claim that the various Ad-hoc formations did not contain elements of the divisions listed elsewhere. According to him, Gr. Stahel consisted in fact of 8.LW-FD, whose arrival he lists as 18 December. Gr. Stumpfeld consisted of sundry romanian elements, including 3rd Army HQ, and the 403. and 213.Sicherungsdivision. Gruppe Spang consisted of 619.Sicherungsrgeiment and "Gruppe 354", which presumably is the IR354 you are referring to. Selle, Weike, Schmidt he does not list. If Glantz is not wrong, then you have double-counted units.

And, there remains the issue of the incompability of the force scope quoted for the two sides?

cheers
Last edited by Qvist on 07 Mar 2007 19:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Michate » 07 Mar 2007 18:37

There was no 213.ID in December 1942. 213.ID was demobilised after the french campaign in 1940, and then called up and used to form 213.Sicherungsdivision in March 1941. According to Nafziger, 213.Sich.D.'s regiments were 318.Sicherungsrgt and 57 Landesschützenrgt. Checking further I see that Haupt however refers to IR354 and IR 318, and Nazfiger also lists several others in use at different points - clearly, it changed its regimental designations frequently. But there is anyway only a point of detail invooved here - that this division was a Sicherungsdivision, not an ID.
Tessin gives the following data:

at formation in 1941:
213 Sich.Div.: IR 318, Ls.Regts.Stab 177

In summer 1942 all Landesschuetzen-Regimenter and most infantry regiments belonging to Security divisions were renamed Sicherungs-Regimenter. Before, in Winter 1941/42 they had been given a regular structure (before that they had been assigned Landesschuetzen battalions on a task nature), and some new Sicherungs-Regimenter were created. Specifically for 213 security division:
213 Sich.Div.:
- Sich.Reg. 177 from battalions II/610, 380, II/318.
- Sich.Reg. 318 from battalions I/318, II/612, I/57.
- Sich.Reg. 57 from battalions 414, 415 and Sich.Reit.Abt (security cavalry detachment) 213.

IR 354 had belonged to the 213 ID, when it was mobilised as a 3rd wave infantry division in 1939. In 1941 it belonged to 286 Sich.Div. of army group Mitte, for 1942 I have not found any data on that regiment. To 286 Sich.Div. belonged after the restructuring the Sich.Reg. 61 and 122.

It is also stated that each division had two regiments (most had 2 Sich.Reg.s, but 5 of the divisions still had 1 infantry regiment next to 1 Sich.Reg.).
[Tessin, p. 289/299]

On p. 66 the source states that during the Stalingrad fighting the 354 Grenadier-Regiment, which had come from 286 Sich.Div., was incorporated into 62 ID, after the regiments originally belonging to that division (183 and 190) was dissolved on 4 May 1943.
[Tessin, p. 66]

Source:
[Tessin] - Tessin, Georg: "Verbaende und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS im Zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945", Vol. 1: "Die Waffengattungen - Gesamtuebersicht".

This is only the first volume with the overall summary of all units, probably more data can be found in the respective Tessin volume on that unit number (which I do not have at the time).


EDIT:

On a quick look, Kehrig has the 354 Security regiment appearing in AD Hollidt's sector on 23/24 November 1942.

[Kehrig] - Kehrig, Manfred: "Stalingrad - Analyse und Dokuemntation einer Schlacht".
Last edited by Michate on 08 Mar 2007 08:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Qvist » 07 Mar 2007 19:04

Thanks Michate

That would lead me to conjecture that what we are talking about is the unit Glantz describes as "354 Group" in FDTD, and possibly that he (or some source he has used) has arrived at this odd designation by it being referred to elsewhere as "gr. or GR 354" which, if what Yuri quotes is accurate, could rather stand for "Grenadier-Rgt 354". Either that, or it stands for "Gruppe", and the source Yuri is quotuing has misinterpreted this to mean "Grenadier-Rgt". The problem is of course that there does not appear to be any Grenadier-Rgt 354, but I suppose it is always possible that it was conferred more or less on the spot on what was essentially an ad-hoc grouping. At any rate, it appears to have been part of KG Spang. Unless Glantz is wrong, of course. :)

cheers

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Post by Yuri » 07 Mar 2007 20:14

After the termination of battles in a small meander of Don against forces XI AK and XIV Pz. Korp from structure of Pauljus's 6-th Army, a division of 65-th army which according to instruction STAVKA were transferred in structure 5 TA, began to arrive to the bottom Chir, that is to region Oblivskaja - Surovikino - Rychkovskij.

Yet not knowing real force of these arriving divisions, an army headquarters 5 TA has decided to carry out with their help local operation on the left wing. The purpose of operation - to improve initial positions in the following strategic operation "Saturn".
In the morning 30/11/42 army headquarters 5TA has issued the battle order ¹ 0012 in which problems in this local approach are put.

Attempt of a troops of the left (southern) wing 5 TA to carry out of a problem of this local approach and has resulted finally in fight for state farm «Red Star» (state farm No 79) about which so the chief of an army headquarters XLVIII Pz. Korp the von Mellenthin has colourfully told to all world in the memoirs.



Attention:
[to attack Nizhne-Chirskaja] - So those places of the text of order No 0012 which in the original are crossed out are designated


File 11 Sheet 22,23
Top secret
Copy ¹1

The battle order ¹ 0012 "30" 11/42 7.30
The ARMY HEADQUARTERS 5Ò Perelazovskij A map 200 000

The opponent on perimeter of army has stopped our approach, tightens operative reserves and tries to proceed to active actions with the purpose impact from the west to distract our forces working on routed of a Stalingrad grouping of the opponent. On a southern flag of army, at the front Oblivskaja, Surovikino, Novomaksimovskij, Verkhne-Chirskij, the opponent covers with separate groups, railway units, the rests of the receded routed units a concentration on the specified boundary of operative reserves.

2. On the right: 1-nd Guards Army has passed to active defense. A differentiating line with her: Elansky, Bol'shoj, Gusynka, / exclude / height 206, / exclude / Astakhov, / exclude / Bokovskaja.
At the left: 21-nd Army destroys the rests of parts of the opponent, a differentiating line with her: Zatonsky, / exclude / Verkhne-Buzinovka, / exclude / Kalach.

3. 5 TA on the right wing, on a site from Astakhov up to Oblivskaja is consolidated on the achieved boundary and conducts active defense, the left wing 30/11 attacks the opponent with an immediate task to destroy a grouping of the opponent in region Chernyshkovskij, Tormosin, Nizhne-Chirskaja and further to surround and destroy the opponent in region Morozovskij.

4. The group of forces /159 RD with 1243th FATAR, 312th and 518th GAR, 579th AR, 356th Guard Mortar Divizion 75th Guard Mortar Regiment, 47 GRD with 571th AR and 216 TBr/ under command of my assistant to general - major Fokanov to continue active defense, to not admit an output of the opponent to the east of the river Chir. It is courageous to render counterblows to the enemy, to exterminate his alive force and technical equipment to prepare for counterblow on a direction Astakhov, Bokovskaja, Chernyshevskaja. CP (command point) - Varlamov.

5. 50 GRD with 534th FATAR, 124th HAR to hold and strongly to defend a strip Illarionov, Chernyshevskaja, Malakhov. A differentiating line former.

6. 346 RD with 150th FATAR, 396th GAR to hold and strongly to defend a strip Chernyshevskaja a the mouth of the river Mashka.

7. 8 CC with 174th FATAR, 35th Guard Mortar Regiment to one CD to promote 40 GRD in mastering Oblivskaja the others to two CDs strongly to defend a boundary of the river Chir on a site a mouth of the river Mashka, Priests.

8. 40 GRD to continue to press home an attack, seize Oblivskaja, then strongly to organize defense of a boundary of Popov, Oblivskaja.

9. 321 RD to promote 40 GRD in mastering Oblivskaja from the east, further to pass in an army reserve in region Oblivskaja, Frolov.

10. 119 RD with 152th HAR and 107th Mortar Regiment and 333 RD with 124th HAR to force the river Chir on a site Surovikino. To rout resisting units of the opponent and by an outcome of day to leave on a boundary Staro-Derbenovskij, Novo-Derbenovskij. To have in view of further to act Chernyshkovskij. 333 RD in 2-nd echelon.

11. 1 TC with 33th FATAR, 354th and 355th Guard Mortar Divisional, 75th Guard Mortar Regiment to force the river Chir on a site Sviridovskij impact on [a southeast] the south and [further to] the east [to attack Nizhne-Chirskaja] from the south in interaction with 3CC and [258 RD] to destroy Nizhne-Chirskaja a grouping of the opponent, not supposing her withdrawal on the south. 44 MRBr to seize Verhne-Akimovskij. Further bear in mind to act Red-Bogdanov, Chernyshkovskij.

12. 3th GCC with 150th FATAR, 21 Guard Mortar Regiment to force the river Chir on site Bol. Osinovka impact on the south on Nizhne-Chirskaja, in interaction with [1TC] 258 RD to surround and destroy Nizhne-Chirskaja a grouping of the opponent. By an outcome of day to leave for region Kruzhkovsky, Chernovskij. Further bear in mind to act Oleshin, Tormosin.

13.258 RD to force the river Chir on a site Kustovskij, Nizhne-Chirskaja in interaction with 3th CC to rout Nizhne-Chirskaja a grouping of the opponent. By an outcome of day to concentrate in Nizhne-Chirskaja. Further bear in mind to act on Tormosin.

14. [My reserve: 119 RD with 152th HAR and 107th MR by an outcome of day to leave in Oblivskaja, to mean 1/12 to operate in a direction Dal'nepodgorskij. 8 SMcR - Perelazovskij]
My reserve 8 SMcR - Popov II.

15. Aircraft to cover a grouping on a southern wing of army with assault and bomber actions, to promote success in rout Chernyshkovskij and Nizhne-Chirskaja of groupings of the opponent.

16. A start of an attack 30.11 for 40 GRD and 321 RD - 12.00 for the others 8.00

17. Artillery approach under the special plan.

18. CP armies - Perelazovskij.

Commander 5ÒÀ
The general - lieutenant
/ROMANENKO/

Member of the Military Council
Guards the divisional commissioner
/TUMANJAN/

Chief of an Army Headquarters 5ÒÀ
The general - major
/DANILOV/

15 copies are printed
Copy ¹1 - in affair
Copies ¹ 2-15 under the list
LK.
In the order 4-th GRD is not mentioned. It speaks that 4 GRD was still very far, and time of her arrival was not known.
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Art
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Post by Art » 08 Mar 2007 13:39

Hello, Qvist. Yuo wrote:
Qvist wrote: He also writes that "As a result of 5 TA's failures, on 9 December Stavka created 5 SA (from 10 Reserve Army) and ordered it to join 5 TA in its attacks beginning on 11 December toward Tormosin and Tatsinskaya."
According to Stvaka directive of 8th December 5 Shock Army comprised the following units: 4th Guard, 258, 300, 315, 87 RD; 4th MC, 7th and 23th TC, 3th CC. From this list 4th GRD, 258th RD and 3th Cavalry corps were inculded by Yuri in his calculation of forces. 300th RD was on the east bank of Volga when operation "Uranus" began, 87th and 315th RDs were transferred from the 10th Reserve Army, 4th MC during Uranus was engaged in actions on the inner ring of encirclement, 7th and 23th TC were held in strategic reserve. So all the aforementioned units were not at place on 9th December. During the ensuing weeks 87th, 300th RDs and 4th MC were diverted against LVII PanzerCorps on the eastern side of Don, and so did the 7th TC after it was engaged for a short time in atack against german bridgehead on the east bank of Don near Nizhne-Chirskaya. 23h TC didn't participated in any actions in December at all. So 315th RD was the only unit that augmented the 5 SA sector till the end of December.
However, the remark about the correctness of comparison of froces is sound, and I think you need a good situation map with delimitation lines for both the 5 TA and 48th PzK to make more or less reasonable calculation of forces. And iy would be better if Yuri specify the certain date, which he uses in comparison of forces.
He also mentions that the defenses on the Chir were additionally manned by 51A and 57A
Looks a bit of doubtfull. Does he name this units?
Why would he take into account 4th PzA?! They were were opposite 51A.
48th PzK was under 4th PzA command, wasn't it?

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 09 Mar 2007 02:37

Qvist wrote: Incidentally, I had a look at Glantz' force overview for December, and he also contradicts your claim that the various Ad-hoc formations did not contain elements of the divisions listed elsewhere. According to him, Gr. Stahel consisted in fact of 8.LW-FD, whose arrival he lists as 18 December. Gr. Stumpfeld consisted of sundry romanian elements, including 3rd Army HQ, and the 403. and 213.Sicherungsdivision. Gruppe Spang consisted of 619.Sicherungsrgeiment and "Gruppe 354", which presumably is the IR354 you are referring to. Selle, Weike, Schmidt he does not list. If Glantz is not wrong, then you have double-counted units.

And, there remains the issue of the incompability of the force scope quoted for the two sides?

cheers
The list of the documents grasped in army headquarters of the opponent which allow as of December, 2, 1942:

a/ Precisely to determine a site of army headquarters battle groups SCHMIDT, WEIKE, SELLE, STUMPFELD working in region Surovikino - State farm «Red Star» (No 79) under the control of an army headquarters XLVIII Pz. Korp (commander -von Knobelsdorff and chef HQ the von Mellenthin) after his arrival in this region;
b/ With a high degree of accuracy to determine number mans, NCOs and officers of the specified battle groups


1. «THE ORDER No 1 from 24/11/42 commanders of battle group SCHMIDT on occupation of defense Surovikino» - allows to establish number of batallions in group of colonel Schmidt, and as surnames and ranks of commanders of these batallions.
- on east site: ober-lieutenant KAMENBERG's battalion group
- on northern site: captain SCHTILLER's battalion group
- on a western site: captain KARGER's battalion group
- on a southeast site: major GEDEMAN's battalion group
- on a southwest site/NIZHNE-KALINOVKA/: captain SCHONE's battalion group
-on northeast ahead taking place position: of captain REIBSCHTEIN's battalion group

2. « THE ORDER ON ACCEPTANCE. THE MAIN POINT OF SUPPLY OF BATTLE GROUP SCHMIDT / An army headquarters of a column of supply 525 battalions/ from 2/12/42 » - allows to establish a site of army headquarters of battle groups SCHMIDT, WEKE, SELLE, STUMPFELD and as to establish presence of battle groups ADAM and GEILMAN.
Allows to find out about presence 525 battalions.

3. «The Sheet about battle and numerical structure of battle group WEIKE on 2/12/42» - the name this of document speaks for itself

4. « Magazine of operations of 1-st tank company 301 tank batallions » - the commander of 1 tank company ober-lieutenant ABENDROT. Allows to determine presence and a site of battle groups STAHEL, ADAM, STUMPFELD, SCHMIDT.

5. « Magazine of operations of 36-th Estonian police batallion ». (the commander of a batallion major RENTOR, and then captain GIRGAKE) - determines: a/ quantitative structure of 36-th police batallion; b/ structure and number northern a batallion of group and southwest a batallion of group of structure of battle group Schmidt.


6. «Order of Attack No 042 from 6/12/42 on 336 ID» (the commander 336 ID - general Lucht) - regulates actions of infantry regiments of a division in approach to Russian bridgehead and as determines an arrangement for co-operation of units of a division with attacking bridgehead at the left 7 LW-FD and battle group SELLE, allows to determine presence in structure to battle group SELLE of strong artillery group.

Presence in archive TSAMO of these documents allows to assert, that in the case specified by you respected Glanzt has taken advantage of a source of a doubtful origin.

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Qvist
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Post by Qvist » 09 Mar 2007 08:34

Thanks Yuri, but it would be most welcome if you would quote from the German original rather than in tentative english -in some cases I do not understand what you mean at all, and in others the German phrase that has been translated from is of key importance.
1. «THE ORDER No 1 from 24/11/42 commanders of battle group SCHMIDT on occupation of defense Surovikino» - allows to establish number of batallions in group of colonel Schmidt, and as surnames and ranks of commanders of these batallions.
- on east site: ober-lieutenant KAMENBERG's battalion group
- on northern site: captain SCHTILLER's battalion group
- on a western site: captain KARGER's battalion group
- on a southeast site: major GEDEMAN's battalion group
- on a southwest site/NIZHNE-KALINOVKA/: captain SCHONE's battalion group
-on northeast ahead taking place position: of captain REIBSCHTEIN's battalion group
What term is used here? "Btl"? "Batallionsgruppe"? "Abteilung"? "Gruppe"? Any more information on what batallions? Where they come from?
2. « THE ORDER ON ACCEPTANCE. THE MAIN POINT OF SUPPLY OF BATTLE GROUP SCHMIDT / An army headquarters of a column of supply 525 battalions/ from 2/12/42 » - allows to establish a site of army headquarters of battle groups SCHMIDT, WEKE, SELLE, STUMPFELD and as to establish presence of battle groups ADAM and GEILMAN.
Allows to find out about presence 525 battalions.
Here I literally do not understand what you are trying to say, I'm afraid.
3. «The Sheet about battle and numerical structure of battle group WEIKE on 2/12/42» - the name this of document speaks for itself
That's exactly what it doesn't do. Is that "Kampfstärken"? "Kopfstärken"? "battle and numerical structure" can mean any of a large number of different strength definitions in use, or it can mean a report describing the general state of the Gruppe without giving any figures. And, what information does the document give about Gruppe Weike exactly?
4. « Magazine of operations of 1-st tank company 301 tank batallions » - the commander of 1 tank company ober-lieutenant ABENDROT. Allows to determine presence and a site of battle groups STAHEL, ADAM, STUMPFELD, SCHMIDT.
Uh, what do you mean by "magazine of operations"? That makes no sense at all.
6. «Order of Attack No 042 from 6/12/42 on 336 ID» (the commander 336 ID - general Lucht) - regulates actions of infantry regiments of a division in approach to Russian bridgehead and as determines an arrangement for co-operation of units of a division with attacking bridgehead at the left 7 LW-FD and battle group SELLE, allows to determine presence in structure to battle group SELLE of strong artillery group.
So, what does it say, exactly, about that?
Presence in archive TSAMO of these documents allows to assert, that in the case specified by you respected Glanzt has taken advantage of a source of a doubtful origin.
Well, that remains to be shown. But let's take one thing at a time.

cheers

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 09 Mar 2007 13:45

"Magazine of operations" could be "operations diary".

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