Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

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Art
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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Art » 11 Dec 2023 18:01

Yuri wrote:
11 Dec 2023 01:40
3. Your reconstruction of events proceeds from the fact that on December 8, the main task for the Soviet troops was to fight the German 11th TD. That's not so. Repelling the attack of the 11th TD was a secondary task for the Soviet units.
That's a reconstruction of the attack of the 11 PzD. Soviet units are only considered as long as they directly contacted this division. What were the plans for the day of 8 December was described earlier. What was the reactions and decisions of the Soviet command (Romanenko and Butkov) and how they affected the situation is the most unclear of unclear questions with the present scarce sources.
2. Your diagram incorrectly indicates the height of 137.8, at which two KV tanks of the 216th tank Brigade were burned on December 8.
South of State Farm No. 79 there are two heights with a mark of 137.8.
Its hard to understand how far the attack progressed and where it was repulsed exactly, because "southern slopes of the Hill 137.8" can be interpreted widely, and it is not even obvious from the context which of the two points 137.8 Kozhanov meant. Neither it is clear from German records. Based on the common sense it must be somewhere in front of the German blocking line (point 137.8 (south) - point 132.1).
4. State farm No. 79 was not captured by German units at 16 o'clock (14 o'clock Berlin time).
We have several German documents indicating the time bracket from 14.00 to 14.30 BT, including the message from the 110 Regiment itself. Plus a message from the 209 Pz. Pioneer Battalion that it reached the point immediately south of the Farm by 15.00 having no contact with the enemy. On the hand the Kozhanov's report doesn't indicate the exact time when the farm was abandoned and its timeline of events is rather moot. So I stick to the German version unless some additional sources appear.
If this were true, then you need to specify the place where 10 tanks, a motorized rifle company and an anti-tank battery of the 216th tank brigade were located for 8 hours.
Again, that's a reconstruction of the attack of the 11 Pz. Division during the day. What happened after they retreated from the Farm and broke contact with this division is beyond my scope.
In that case, why didn't the Germans take them prisoner? And why did the German units stop at the state farm? it would be more logical to continue moving towards height 161.
Because mopping up the pocket was secondary to the principal task, that is the strike to the Chir River (see the corps order of the previous day). Besides, the Panzer division was seemingly reluctant to fight in nighttime. Accordingly the 110 Regiment was to move forward during the night and resume the attack on the morning of 9 December.

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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 11 Dec 2023 21:29

Art wrote:
11 Dec 2023 18:01
What was the reactions and decisions of the Soviet command (Romanenko and Butkov) and how they affected the situation is the most unclear of unclear questions with the present scarce sources.
This only means that until now you have not had the opportunity to read Romanenko's order of December 8, which sets the task for the tank brigades of the 1st TC and defines the nature of their actions in connection with the appearance of a fresh German tank division in this area.
From the primary documents that are available in sufficient quantity, it is clear that tank brigades and motorcyclists act according to the instructions of Lieutenant General Romanenko. You either did not have time to familiarize yourself with all such documents or interpret them incorrectly.
With the exception of the order for the offensive of the 336th Infantry Division dated December 6, No. 42 and order for the offensive of 48PzK, no primary German documents have been presented here until now, which are directly related to the fighting on December 7-8-9 in the area of state farm No. 79 and the Golovsky-Ostrovsky-Sulatsky bridgehead. What you are currently calling German sources are not primary documents. These are texts from KTB 336th ID, 11th TD and 48th Pz.K. It is impossible to determine at what time these texts were written. And, more importantly, these texts, maps, and diagrams contain misleading information.
For example:
- it is reported that Kg Selle lost height 129.0 in the morning of December 7, but allegedly in the afternoon Kg Selle egains control of this key (according to records in KTB 48 Pz.K and KTB 336 ID) height;
- it is reported that Russian tanks broke through at the site of the 7th Luftwaffe Air Field Division, while the breakthrough of tanks occurred between heights 155.0 and 129.0, that is, at the site of Kg Selle;
- German texts and German diagrams indicate that from December 7 to December 9, height 161 and the entire area around this height was under the control of German troops (686 IR), while control over this height remained with the 44th MSBr all the time.
And there are too many such incidents in the texts of the German KTB to take everything written in them at face value

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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 11 Dec 2023 23:21

This is how the area looks in black-white color, where the battle for the State Farm "Red Star" (he is state farm No. 79.) took place 81 years ago. I am assuming in the final version to delete the names of those balkas (ravines) that are not mentioned in Soviet and German documents. Or should I delete only the name, but leave the conditional numbers?
If anyone notices gross errors regarding the location of heights and road routes on the 1941 map, then let me know so that I can correct them in a timely manner.
SckhNo79(1).jpg
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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Art » 12 Dec 2023 20:25

Yuri wrote:
11 Dec 2023 21:29
From the primary documents that are available in sufficient quantity, it is clear that tank brigades and motorcyclists act according to the instructions of Lieutenant General Romanenko.
Feel free then to post these documents, or your conclusions from them or your analysis of them.
With the exception of the order for the offensive of the 336th Infantry Division dated December 6, No. 42 and order for the offensive of 48PzK, no primary German documents have been presented here until now, which are directly related to the fighting on December 7-8-9 in the area of state farm No. 79 and the Golovsky-Ostrovsky-Sulatsky bridgehead. What you are currently calling German sources are not primary documents. These are texts from KTB 336th ID, 11th TD and 48th Pz.K. It is impossible to determine at what time these texts were written. And, more importantly, these texts, maps, and diagrams contain misleading information.
No. I didn't post war diaries alone, I didn't consult or used war diaries alone, and I don't think that war diaries were somehow inherently flawed and unreliable.
As said above we have several German documents indicating the time bracket from 14.00 to 14.30 BT when the Farm was captured, some of which were quite "primary" by your definition, for example:
0107.jpg
So unless there is a source giving an alternative time I stick to this version.
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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 13 Dec 2023 01:01

Art wrote:
12 Dec 2023 20:25
As said above we have several German documents indicating the time bracket from 14.00 to 14.30 BT when the Farm was captured, some of which were quite "primary" by your definition, for example:
0107.jpg
So unless there is a source giving an alternative time I stick to this version.
In my understanding, this is not a primary source document regarding meaningful information. This is just a certified copy of another document by someone. At the same time, the time and date of creation of the copy is not specified, which immediately casts doubt on the authenticity of the content. Therefore, you need to find out: when was this copy created, allegedly, of the telephone message of the 110th regiment.
And if you find out that this copy was created after December 13, 1942, then you can safely put this document in a folder with documents of questionable content.

In my understanding, telephone messages as a primary source document should look like this.
42-12-08 01-25 1ТК (перехват) О достигнутых рубежах (729-730).jpg
This document was compiled by the radio interception service of the 3rd Guards Cavalry Corps. From this primary source, we can find out the starting positions of all four tank brigades of the 1st Tank Corps as of 01:25 a.m. on December 8, 1942. There, in due time, we will place these four tank brigades on our "space" map, since the document will contain the time, date and signature of the author.

So good luck to you in continuing to search for documents that could cast doubt on the information from the report of the commander of the 216th tank brigade, Lieutenant Colonel Kozhanov, that his brigade held state farm No. 79 until 20 o'clock on December 8, 1942.
And take a note for the future. All documents of the 48th Tank Corps, which were created after December 13, 1942, but which contain information about the actions of its troops in the period from December 6 to December 13, must be questioned as to the reliability of this information.
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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Art » 17 Dec 2023 09:53

Yuri wrote:
13 Dec 2023 01:01
So good luck to you in continuing to search for documents that could cast doubt on the information from the report of the commander of the 216th tank brigade, Lieutenant Colonel Kozhanov, that his brigade held state farm No. 79 until 20 o'clock on December 8, 1942.
If you mean the reported posted in this topic then it said that the 216 Brigade defended the Farm for "6 hours", not quite clear starting from what time exactly. The precise time was not quoted. Also the report was written on the next day and who could check the exact time then.

I don't think it's a good idea to analyze how German documents should like like based on Soviet documents. Besides, the very idea of making the faked copies of many logs of combat messages strikes me as rather unrealistic and irrational. The same applies to idea of faking, for example, situation reports submitted and accepted by various staffs. You have to fake simultaneously documents in folders of the divisions, corps and the army HQ, and also probably the Army Group as well. That's a too complicated level of consiparacy to be plausible.

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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Art » 17 Dec 2023 09:56

Returning to the day of 7 December, it became a disastrous combat debut for the 7 Luftwaffe Field Division. Its two infantry battalions combined into an improvised Luftwaffe regiment were defeated and dispersed by tanks of the 1 Tank Corps. The report submitted by the 48 Pz. Corps blamed the panic and heavy losses of Luftwaffe troops on a loss of most officers, inexperience of troops and employment of organic anti-tank weapons in other sectors. An addendum from 23 December stated the casualties of the two battalions as 232 men killed, 329 wounded, and 259 missing in actions (about 50% of the full strength of the two battalions which was about 1800 men). The survivors were combined into one battalion and employed on the forward line.

The Army Detachment Hollidt (former 3 Romanian Army) submitted its own report on experience of the Luftwaffe Field Divisions on 28.12.42. While it asserted that personnel of the division were a good human material with best intentions and initially fought heroically it acknowledged heavy losses in personnel and material and cases of panic. A very difficult battle conditions in which these formations were thrown were partly to blame, but also there were serious shortcoming in organization and staffing of Luftwaffe division. They were said to lack a cadre of experienced soldiers and officers with Eastern Front experience and thus couldn’t stand the first massed tank attack in their life. The panic erupted and heavy personnel casualties occurred. Also in a 88-mm battery employed in the sector of the Luftwaffe regiment on 7 December, 1 gun was knocked out by a direct hit and the other three were abandoned. The divisions lacked General Staff officers with sufficient training and experience which could assist divisional commanders. Attachment of General Staff officers from the Army was recommended. Most officers lacked experience in ground warfare of were former Army officers transferred to the Luftwaffe a long time ago and having no battle experience. Organization of the Luftwaffe field division was also found deficient. The conclusion was that only formation with actual Eastern Front experience could handle the present difficult conditions of defensive battles. It was recommended to designate certain Heer divisions as Luftwaffe divisions, which would accept all personnel and equipment replacements from the air force. Such divisions were believed to be more efficient than improvised Luftwaffe formations.

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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 17 Dec 2023 15:05

Art wrote:
17 Dec 2023 09:56
Returning to the day of 7 December, it became a disastrous combat debut for the 7 Luftwaffe Field Division. Its two infantry battalions combined into an improvised Luftwaffe regiment were defeated and dispersed by tanks of the 1 Tank Corps. The report submitted by the 48 Pz. Corps blamed the panic and heavy losses of Luftwaffe troops on a loss of most officers, inexperience of troops and employment of organic anti-tank weapons in other sectors. An addendum from 23 December stated the casualties of the two battalions as 232 men killed, 329 wounded, and 259 missing in actions (about 50% of the full strength of the two battalions which was about 1800 men). The survivors were combined into one battalion and employed on the forward line.
This is the date (7 December) of the defeat of the battalions of the 7th Luftwaffe Field Division indicated incorrectly. The battalions of this division suffered the main losses on December 8. In the Heer's documents including KBT (48.Pz.Korps., 11.PzD. and 336.ID ), deliberately distorted the time, place and sequence of events that took place on December 7-8-9, 1942. This was done in order to deflect the blame for the defeat of fresh forces, as a result, the loss of the Don bridgehead and bridges over the Don River. On December 14, a special commission began searching for those responsible for the defeat of fresh units, as a result of which the Don bridgehead, the railway bridge at Rychkovsky and the automobile bridge at Verkhne-Chirsky were lost.
Those who produced the documents after December 13 understood that they would be read by the investigative authorities.

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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 17 Dec 2023 15:23

For a long time, I was in thrall to misconceptions about the main task performed by the tank brigades of the 1st TC and the 8th separate motorcycle Regiment on December 8 and on the night of December 8-9, 1942.
I believe that the absolute majority of those who read this forum thread are trapped in the same misconceptions that I was once in.

It is quite logical to assume that during the whole day of December 8 and on the night of December 8-9, 1942, the main task for the Red Army units (1118th Infantry Regiment, 8th separate motorcycle Regiment, 117th and 216th tank brigades) was to detain the 11th tank division on the line: Kalinovskaya beam – height 155.0 – height 160.3 - state farm No. 79.
That is, the units of the Red Army had to prevent the connection of the German tank division of General Balk with the infantry division of General Lucht. Indeed, Lieutenant General Romanenko outlined exactly such a task in his note addressed to the commander of the 8th separate motorcycle regiment, Lieutenant Colonel Belik.

However, in the afternoon of December 8, events occurred that radically changed the plans of Lieutenant General Romanenko. Firstly, by 14:00, the advance of German tank and motorized units from the direction of height 165.3 on height 161 was stopped. The 1118th Infantry Regiment consolidated protection along the line: the eastern slopes of height 155.0 - height 157.8 - the western spurs of the balka Ostrov.

At the same time, Lieutenant General Romanenko receives permission from the STAVKA of the Supreme High Command to use the 5th mechanized corps in the Surovikino area, and to use the 168th tank regiment of this corps at the Ostrovsky-Golovsky bridgehead.
The 168th Tank Regiment (regimental commander Major Karas) was armed with 39 Matilda II tanks.
As mentioned earlier, Lieutenant General Romanenko ordered the 8th Separate Guards Tank Brigade, the 510th and 511th separate flamethrower tank battalions, as well as the 47th Guards Rifle Division to arrive at the Golovsky-Ostrovsky bridgehead.

Assuming that significant forces of tanks and infantry would arrive at the bridgehead on the morning of December 9, Lieutenant General Romanenko changed the task to the tank brigades of the 1st Tank Corps and the 8th separate motorcycle regiment. The new task was as follows. Such tans brigades and a motorcycle regiment must break away from enemy tanks and rapidly move southeast towards the settlements on the Chir River to Blizh-Melnechny and Nizhne-Chirskaya.
At the same time, in the process of advancing, the tank brigade must act in small groups, shoot at everything that moves, crawls and hides. Don't get involved in protracted battles. It is necessary to act in such a way that the German command has the impression of the presence of significant masses of Russian tanks in the rear of its troops, create chaos in the rear of the German troops, and prevent the German command from consolidating forces that were scattered throughout the area.

On my "space" map, a yellow circle indicates the point of maximum distance of the advance of the 8th separate motorcycle regiment and most of the motorized rifle and machine gun battalion of the 216th Tank Brigade on the night of December 8-9, 1942. The coordinates of this point are indicated in the operational summary of the headquarters of the 8th separate motorcycle regiment. The attack of the Red Army troops on the German convoy 9.Lw.Flak-Div. with ammunition, exactly this time and at this point is recorded in KTB of Schutz.Reg./9.Lw.Flak-Div.
For what reason the tank brigades of the 1st TC received Romanenko's order to return and where these brigades were located on the night of December 8-9, 1942, I will indicate on the "space" map later.

Romanenko's order to advance to the Chir River was received by all brigades except the 216th Tank Brigade (however, this became clear only on the morning of December 9, after the arrival of Lieutenant Colonel Kozhanov in Ostrovsky). The claims of the commander of the 5th Tank Army, Lieutenant General Romanenko, to the commander of the 216th tank brigade, Lieutenant Colonel, consisted not in the fact that his brigade had left the settlement, indicated on the map of the scale of 100,000 1941, State Farm No. 79 (Sysoikin), but exactly on the turn. The essence of General Romanenko's claim to Lieutenant Colonel Kozhanov is that the tanks of the 216th TBr continued to be located in the village of Sovkhoz No. 79 (Sysoikin) until late in the evening, instead of breaking away from the enemy and moving in the same direction in which the 8th separate motorcycle regiment left, namely to the Nizh-Chirskaya. However, as follows from the report of Lieutenant Colonel Kozhanov, no instructions were received from the 1st Tank Corps by radio. Therefore, tanks and a smaller part of the motorized rifle and machine gun battalion of the 216th TBr (80 riflemen) continued to perform the task specified in the order for the offensive No. 043 of December 5, 1943, namely: to defend the settlement, designated on the map of the scale of 100,000 1941 as state farm No. 79 (Sysoikin). This defense lasted for 6 hours from 14:00 to 20:00 Moscow time.

From the contents of the radiogram of the 110th Panzer-Grenadier Regiment of the 11th Panzer Division (provided by the respected Art), it is impossible to unambiguously determine the location of the settlement, which is named SOWJOZE in the radiogram.
The fact is that the German troops used maps of different years of publication at the same time: maps of 1927-29 and maps of 1941. However, in the maps of 1929, the phrase =Sowhose No. 79 = is used only when referring to Farm number 3 of SoWHOSE Nr.79. On this map, the settlement of Sysoykin is indicated only by the words =SOWHOSE Krassnaja Swezda /Red Star/=. That is, on the map of 1929, only the name of the state farm is used to designate the settlement of Sysoykin without specifying a numerical number.
On the map of 1941, the settlement of Sysoykin is designated as SVH.No.79 /Sysoykin/.
The difference in the names of settlements in the two editions of maps concerns not only the settlement of State Farm No.79/Sysoikin/.

For this reason, in broadcasts by radio or telephone, German units designated settlements using their names simultaneously on both maps of 1929 and on the map of 1941.
This was done so that the recipient of the radiogram could understand exactly which locality the sender of the message meant.
To make sure of this, we will place copies of the sheets from KTB of Schutz.Reg.D/9.Flak-Div and copies of the original radiograms of this regiment at the headquarters of our division. (I have already posted these documents on this branch, but the Russian proverb "Povtorenie mat' ucheniya"="Repetition is the mother of learning.")

As we can see, in the texts of Heer-KTB (48., 11.PzD and 336.ID ) only one name of localities is used: either SOWHOSE (SOVKHOS) or Krassnaja Swezda /Red Star/. (I have reason to assume that this is done intentionally in the Heer-KTB texts).
If no one takes the trouble to translate the text from KTB of Schutz.Reg.D/9.Flak-Div from German into English, then tomorrow I will give my translation.
Comparing the texts of Heer-KTB and KTB of Schutz.Reg.D/9.Flak-Div, we will see a significant difference in the interpretation of the events that occurred 81 years ago in the area of the village of SOWHOSE, SOWHOSE Krassnaja Zvezda, Sovkhoz No. 79 /Sysoykin/.

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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 17 Dec 2023 15:39

9FlakDiv_KTB_07-12-42.jpg
9FlakDiv_KTB_08-12-42.jpg
9FlakDiv_KTB_08-12-42_.jpg
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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 17 Dec 2023 15:44

283_9FlakDiv_21-11_10-12-42_Doklad.jpg
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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 17 Dec 2023 16:45

A copy of the original radiogram of the 9th anti-aircraft Division of the Luftwaffe, which indicates the name of the same settlement Sysoikin on two maps: SOWSCHOS 79 and (Kassnaja Sswesta).
42-12-07_20-15_9FlakDiv_LwSchRegD_.jpg
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Last edited by Yuri on 17 Dec 2023 17:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Vasilyev » 17 Dec 2023 17:17

Thank you all for your excellent contributions on this topic - I have nothing to add but my appreciation!

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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 17 Dec 2023 17:18

Art wrote:
17 Dec 2023 09:53
I don't think it's a good idea to analyze how German documents should like like based on Soviet documents. Besides, the very idea of making the faked copies of many logs of combat messages strikes me as rather unrealistic and irrational. The same applies to idea of faking, for example, situation reports submitted and accepted by various staffs. You have to fake simultaneously documents in folders of the divisions, corps and the army HQ, and also probably the Army Group as well. That's a too complicated level of consiparacy to be plausible.
I also had this opinion until I found out that falsifications are present not only in the documents of corps, armies and army groups, but even on the level of OKH. As recently as November 24, 1942, just two weeks before the battle for State Farm No. 79, the Commander and Chief of Staff of the 48th Tank Corps were dismissed from their posts and put on trial.
My plan was to explain the circumstances of this case later.
General Knobelsdorf and Lieutenant Colonel Mellentin took the positions of corps commander and Chief of Staff of the 48th Tank Corps, respectively, precisely because their predecessors were in prison and communicated with investigators.

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Re: Battle of Sovkhoz «Red Star» (Sovkhoz 79)

Post by Yuri » 19 Dec 2023 12:06

From the KTB of Schüzt.Rgt.D/9.Flak-Div

7.12.42
In the early morning, ground surveillance and aerial reconnaissance in the Ostrovsky area revealed more than 50 enemy tanks that are preparing for an attack. In the same area, 14 Stalinorgeln, motorized artillery and motorized infantry units of the enemy are observed.
Own Stuka cannot be used in the morning due to low clouds. Enemy forces are breaking through to the southwest, overturning the 2.Batl. of the 7.Lw. Field-Div. The bulk of the enemy occupies State Farm No. 79 (Krassnaja Swesda [Red Star-Yuri]), the weaker parts are moving towards the Nizh.Solonovsky.
The Trosse of 336.ID, 7.Lw.Field-Div and 1. and 3.Lw. Schützen Komp. of the 9.Lw.Flakdiv (mot) were defeated at State Farm No. 79.
Against this the enemy attack, the 15.Pz. Rgt. of 11.Pz. Div., which arrived in Peshchersky area the previous night (110 tanks with long-barreled 5 cm and long-barreled 7,5 cm), will be involved. In response strik, the space to the south and west of the Krassnaja Swesda [Red Star] is reached.
Colonel General v. Richthofen arrives at the XXXXVIII.Pz.Korp in the morning. Since noon, the Luftwaffe has been resolutely engaged in battle.
In the late afternoon, the enemy with infantry is advancing from the northwest 1 km east of Blizh.Melnechny is on the road near Chir. Here, the 4./swehr.Lw.Jg.Btl.I., together with the Erdmann’s Battalion (the Adam's group), are under tight defense.
There was little combat activity in the rest of the Ehm's Flakkampfgruppe and the Luftwaffe Rifle companies of the 9th Lw.Flakdiv (mot). Fight against enemy grenade launchers and snipers.
Units of the I./9 with 1 officer and 78 soldiers arrived in Kotelnikovo and marched to Tormisin the next day. Both 8,8 cm guns are no longer operational.
Commander of the 9.Lw.Flakdiv (mot) assigned Lt. Colonel Dorn to lead the combined Luftwaffe forces in the Chir section of the XXXXVIII Panzer Korps.
Lt. Colonel Dorn has been granted the rights of a regimental commander.
At the call of the 336.ID at 11:30 a.m., 1 truck with 135 8,8 Pz. cartridges marches to Verkhne-Solonovsky.
Hauptmann Arendt will deliver 2 -8,8 cm and 3 -2 cm guns from Rostov, as well as 1 Zgkw. and 5 Kfs.81 by land march to Tormisin.
Casualties:
personnel: 4./Lw. Jg.Btl.I - 1 dead (Oblt. Daiber)
material: The 1. and 3. Lw. Schützen Komp. of the 9.Lw.Flakdiv (mot) are still unknown.

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