Question about German and Russain Division strength.

[AceRimmer]

Hello, I hope this is the correct forum for this.

I have a few questions I would really like to get answers to.

1. How many men where there in a regular German infantry divison? (fullstrenght)

2. How many divisions where in a German army?

3. Whats the differance between a corps and an army?

4. How many panzers in a german panzer division?

And finally: The same info, except maybe question 3, regarding the Soviet red army. I've heard that the infantry divisions where smaller but the tank armies bigger (than their german counterparts) is this true?

Thanks in advance!

[Christoph Awender]

Hello!

This is a very large topic as the strengths changed during the war several times.

Infanteriedivision 1.Welle at the beginning of the war: 16758 men
Infanteriedivision 1944: 12772 men
Infanteriedivision 1945 volle Gliederung: 11370 men
Inf.Div.1945 with several shortened versions: 8800 men, 7200 men, 6300 men, 5000 men

tanks in Panzerdivision 1939: around 300
tanks in a Panzerdivision 1945: 54 + 22 tankhunter

It cannot be said how many divisions were in a army because the number changed from task to task and situation. Varied from 1 to 15/20 sometimes.
A Korps is a command structure one level under Army. An army consisted of Armeekorps and/or Panzerkorps (later in war) which are the direct command structure for divisions. One up to 5-6 Korps can be in an army.

So the command levels are: company - battalion - regiment - division - Korps - Armee - Heeresgruppe

hope this helps,
Christoph

[AceRimmer]

Yes it helps alot, thank you very much!

[Juha Hujanen]

Russian infantry Division in 39 had 17500 men.Armoured Division had in 41 11000 men and 373 tanks.Mechanised Corps in 41 had 36800 men and 1031 tanks.Tank Corps had in 42 7800 men and 168 tanks.In 43 10977 men and 257 tanks,44 12010 men and 270 tanks and in 45 11788 men and 270 tanks.
Mechanised Corps had in 42 13559 men and 175 tanks,43 15018 men and 229 tanks,44 16318 men and 246 tanks and in 45 16318 men amd 246 tanks.

Tank Army had in 43-45 46-48000 men and 650-800 tanks.It had usually 2-4 tank Corps.

Hope this helps.

Regards Juha

[AceRimmer]

Russian infantry Division in 39 had 17500 men.Armoured Division had in 41 11000 men and 373 tanks.Mechanised Corps in 41 had 36800 men and 1031 tanks.Tank Corps had in 42 7800 men and 168 tanks.In 43 10977 men and 257 tanks,44 12010 men and 270 tanks and in 45 11788 men and 270 tanks.
Mechanised Corps had in 42 13559 men and 175 tanks,43 15018 men and 229 tanks,44 16318 men and 246 tanks and in 45 16318 men amd 246 tanks.

Tank Army had in 43-45 46-48000 men and 650-800 tanks.It had usually 2-4 tank Corps.

Hope this helps.

Regards Juha

Yes, thank you very much

[ISU-152]

The strength of Soviet division during a war never exceeded 6000 men. Before the war the formations had up to 17000 men. They were also called "full-blooded" divisions in the beginning of war as it was very difficult to raise the divisions of the same strength as before the war. And Soviet Union had at least 400 divisions also the size was different from time to time.

[Karl da Kraut]

required strength (personell) for German divisions 1939/40:

Infantry Division 1st Wave: 17.734 (534 officers, 102 adminstration officials, 2.701 NCOs, 14.397 ranks)

Mountain Infantry Division (Gebirgsdivision): 17.188 (459+85+2.128+14.516)

Mechanized Infantry Division: 16.445 (492+133+2.456+13364)

Armoured Division (Panzerdivision): 11.792 (394+115+1.982+9.321)

Light Infantry Division (Leichte I.D.): 10.772 (332+105+1.618+8.719)

Cavalry Brigade: 6.684 (192+29+893+5.570)


required strength (tanks) for a German panzer division 1939/40:

tanks: 324
armored recon vehicles: 101

[Andy H]

ISU wrote

The strength of Soviet division during a war never exceeded 6000 men

That's a bold statement which I think you will find hard to justify!!

Andy from the Shire

[ISU-152]

This is pre-war data:
http://www.battlefield.ru/library/books ... stat4.html

Looking for the war data......

[Darrin]

This is pre-war data:
http://www.battlefield.ru/library/books ... stat4.html

Looking for the war data......

The document you refer to list the str of a sov inf div in june 41 as 14,500 not the 17,000 you claim. There also appear to be other problems with this document it list 16 tanks per div but this had been removed by this time and only a few divs still had tanks at this time.

[Darrin]

This is pre-war data:
http://www.battlefield.ru/library/books ... stat4.html

Looking for the war data......

The document you refer to list the str of a sov inf div in june 41 as 14,500 not the 17,000 you claim. There also appear to be other problems with this document it list 16 tanks per div but this had been removed by this time and only a few divs still had tanks at this time.

According to glantz he refers to str of around 12,000 which he calls understg. A peactime army understr is not unusual people away for various reasons and no reserves. Also he cites numerous equipment diffeccies. Well if a unit is short 25% of its arty then it doesn´t need the extra troops for the arty and even supplying ammo. etc... Personnal shortages might not have been an issue. The inf div actually decreased to a normal min of 8000 before eventually rising towards the end of the war to perhaps 10,000.

The kursk database study gives a good snapshopt of avg relative unit str. This study was done on the units that took part in the southern attack not the north or holding elsewher. The sov rif div avg 8000 the sov TC avg about 8500 the mech corps avg about 16,000 but only 1 or two took part. The ger inf div avg 16,000, the pd 16,000 and the special PGDiv around 20,000. Notice the ger inf in the south were stonger than in the north and overall were stronger than the ger inf div elsewhere at this time.

[Panzerrat]

[Timo]

Brilliant or not, you are wrong:

Organization and strength of panzer units for Fall Weiss:

1.Panzer-Division with 1.Panzer-Brigade (with two Panzer-Regimenter): 309 Panzers

2.Panzer-Division with 2.Panzer-Brigade (with two Panzer-Regimenter): 313 Panzers

3.Panzer-Division with 3.Panzer-Brigade (with two Panzer-Regimenter and the Panzerlehr-Abteilung): 391 Panzers

and so on...

In short, your error is that you forgot the fact that each 1939 Panzer-Division had two Panzer-Regimenter forming a Panzer-Brigade. Only after Fall Gelb (1940) their stength was reduced to one Panzer-Regiment per Panzer-Division during reorganizations for Unternehmen Barbarossa.

Thus the original statement, 300 Panzer in a 1939 PD, is correct.

Just my 2 cents,
Timo

[Panzerrat]

Doh!

[Timo]

This was the "Official" strength of a PD in 39 & (were possible) remained so until 44......

Sorry, but you're wrong.