Prof. Raack on Stalin's planned westward offensive

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michael mills
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Prof. Raack on Stalin's planned westward offensive

#1

Post by michael mills » 14 Dec 2002, 05:17

The following excerpt is from the book "Stalin's Drive to the West 1938-1945: The Origins of the Cold War", by Richard Raack, Professor of History at California State University (yet another book that we can be sure has not been read by those who shout so loudly on this forum).

Professor Raack contends that Stalin had been actively planning a westward invasion ever since 1938, although the actual timing had not been definitely set. It actual occurrence in 1944-45 was not at a time of Stalin's own choosing, since it had been delayed by the German attack of 1941.

The following is from pages 24 and 25 of the book:
The first recorded revelation so far available of the great diemnsion of Stalin's scheme of war and revolution dates from the summer of 1940, when Foreign Minister Molotov and one of Lavrentii Beriia's henchmen in the People's Commissariat for Foreign Affairs (the Narkomindel) excitedly announced the program, once as a major part of a five-hour harangue, for the information of a would-be collaborator from Lithuania. Following Soviet reoccupation in June 1040, of most of the lands that had once belonged to the tsar [=Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia], Molotov sought to overwhelm this stupified candidate, Vincus Kreve-Mickevicius, for a place in one of Stalin's new Baltic satrapies with a jubilant forecast of a grand Red Army march west bearing the revolution even farther, and of a great battle to be fought hundreds of miles to the west near the Rhine to ensure its final triumph. It seems obvious that stalin and Molotov, and probably others in the inner circle of the Kremlin, had been busy inflating these no doubt long held fancies with immediate expectations, for the scheme went very much beyond sitting back to await a breakdown of capitalism in the aftermath of the new European war.

Hints of this scheme had already been put out in discussions with Comintern chiefs in the fall of 1939, and its major aspects were being mooted in more remote Soviet diplomatic circles as early as 1940, and widely leaked. It seems likely, therefore, that it had been much discussed, and - so it appears - triumphantly announced by Molotov for political underpinning and for the psychological relief that conspirators find in sharing secrets with a widening circle of intimates. Indeed, because Molotov was usually no less secretive, and certainly no less conspiratorial, than Stalin, the fact that he incautiously broadcast wild expectations to at least one other party, who eventually relayed it to others, says something about the hubris already abroad in the Kremlin after the Soviet victories to the west, in 1939 and 1940, and the military victory in the Far East over Japan in 1939. Stalin, who was himself sometimes given to odd outbursts, may have been no more tight-lipped. And because the Soviet domestic party information system depended on the word of the leader being passed down through party echelons from top to bottom, it was certain that many were going to know before long what the vozhd' originally had broadcast. It is well known that much drinking went on in STalin's ambiance, following which words doubtlessly also flowed, but with or without alcohol, agreeing with the vozhd' was almost certainly politically correct, as was passing down his genial thoughts; and the chorus of yeas doubtlessly sustained him and others of the inner circle, and some others far beyond, in their revolutionary hopes.

The German-Soviet pact did bring a temporary resolution of Germany's demands for more territory in east central Europe, and it was even more advantageous to the Soviet Union. It also guaranteed Stalin the major force in the east of Europe that he wanted, if, and when, France and England were to confront Germany over its threatened attack on Poland. It also brought him much, beyond these tangible gains, by way of promise to fulfill his grandest imaginings. It is unlikely that Molotov was not blurting out what he truly foresaw in the future when he told what he and Stalin, and perhaps more than a few others outside the inner Kremlin circle, by then had firmly in mind.

He anticipated a long war, and predicted revolution to follow: when war came, the combatants in the West would squander their resources on each other. Following Marxist-Leninist analysis, they would stay with the imperialist conflict until home fronts moved to the verge of collapse. The Soviet Union, meanwhile, would encourage the continuation of the war by helping the Germans just enough to make certain that the conflict was prolonged to the bitter end.

No doubt Stalin and Molotov had in mind the final scenes in this picture of the war to come, tableaux from inside defeated Russia in 1917 and from defeated Germany in 1918, when they signed the pact with Hitler. In such politically disrupted landscapes, so Molotov predicted, Soviet-spread anti-war, anti-imperialist, revolutionary ideology, violently refurbished by the discomforts and discontents of war, would soon flame up in working-class heads all over Europe. The proletarians of the industrialized Western nations would turn against their "imperialist" governments. Soldiers, perhaps even whole armies, would revolt, as many did in 1917 and 1918. The Red Army, finally prepared and armed to the teeth, could be rushed westward into combat in support of the "revolution" in weakened Europe. The Bolshevik sword would be carried even farther, to help local revolutionaries finish off any European powers that still survived. It would tame both these European survivors and any other state (such as the United States - a "swamp", Molotov called it, "whose [prospective] entrance into the war does not worry us in the slightest") that opposed Red Army control of the European land mass. The West, unified under the Communist International, would be red: "The Soviet system", Molotov said, "....shall reign everywhere, throughout all Europe". That was the plot, a fantasy of war, with military slaughter on the Rhine, Marxist-Leninist law, and World War I precedents combined, that lay behind the Kremlin's breathtaking vision of the future. It was. indeed, so exciting and exhilarating a vision that the obvious risks of the undertaking could easily be brushed aside. In any case, after the years of purges, there was probably no one left to point out the risks.
Raack provides the following notes relating to the Soviet invasion plan outlined above:

Note 21:
....................................................

Soviet and post-Soviet historians have recently reported finding Stalin's plan for the war sketched out in several places, with parts or all of it mentioned by L M Mekhlis, E S Varga, and Andrei Zhdanov 9the latter, from 1941: "We have already entered on the path of a policy of attack"), all of whom were part of, or close to, the Kremlin inner circle, between 1939 and 1941. See Volkogonov, p. 10 ["Drama reshenii 1939 goda", Novaiia i noveishaia istoriia, 1989, no. 4: 3-27]; Semiriaga in "17 sentiabria 1939 goda", pp. 14-15 (includes the Zhdanov quote just above), and in "Sovetskii soiuz i predvoennyi politicheskii krizis", pp. 54-61; and Spirin, p. 95 ["Stalin i voina", Voprosy istorii KPSS, 1990, no. 5: 90-105]. Soviet defector Grigorii Tokaev told much of it even earlier: pp. 72-73 [Stalin Means War, London, 1951]; see also Firsov, "Stalin und die Komintern", p. 120; and (on Varga), Duda, p. 159 [Jenoe Varga und die geschichte des Instituts fuer Weltwirtschaft und Weltpolitik in Moskau 1921-1970, Berlin 1994]. Finally, Walter Ulbricht, a German Communist boss close to the Comintern leaders, suggested in a party information meeting in Moscow that the westward thrust of the Red Army after the collapse of the warring powers was one anticipated outcome of the war ("Politischer Informationsabend am 21. 2. 1941", in ZPA, Pieck Nachlass 36/528).
............................................................

Important ideological and political background supporting the notion that Stalin's Drang nach Westen was nothing new in 1939 is in Kaplan, pp. 3, 91 (The Short March. Trans. from the German. London, 1987). My article "Stalin Plans His Post-War Germany" established Stalin's determination to move Communist Party influence and control into Western-occupied, post-war Germany; it seems undeniable that this plan represented a continuation of his plans of 1939-41, adapted to the changed circumstances.
...........................................

Note 22: .....................................
Several authors, writing earlier, have suggested that Stalin actually had a firm date, or at least a firm military plan, for the attack west, which would be directed against the Germans. Certainly the Soviet military was making contingency plans in the spring of 1941 (see "Schukows Angriffsplan" [ Der Spiegel, 1991, no. 24: 140]). This proves little, however, since all military staffs presumably make contingency plans. On the plan, see Gor'kov, "Gotovil li Stalin uprezhdaiushchii udar protiv Gitlera v 1941 g.?". Some of the most controversial assessments of Stalin's intentions in making the pact are in Suworow (Suvorov), Der Eisbrecher, pp. 61-67; on his findings and other evidence to the point, see chap. 2, n.21 [sic! Actually n. 23]; and Topitsch, pp. 7-8, 14-16. The most substantially researched version of the argument is Joachim Hoffmann's "Die Angriffsvorbereitungen der Sowjetunion 1941", in Wegner, ed., Zwei Wege nach Moskau. See also, Semiriaga, "Sovetskii soiuz i predvoennyi politicheskii krizis", p. 61. Suvorov is challenged, to be sure on the basis of limited sources and research superannuated by other findings and revelations when published, by Gabriel Gorodetsky, in the same Wegner-edited volume mentioned above: "The notion that Stalin had in mind an attack on Germany is 'absurd' " ("Stalin und Hitlers Angriff auf die Sowjetunion", p. 362). But Gorodetsky is praised, and his opinion ratified, at least with respect to 1941 and 1942, by Dallin (pp. 20, 28 ["Stalin and the German Invasion", Soviet Union 18 (1991): 19-37]), who neither cites the recent Russian-language accounts nor deals with the primary sources, many of them available when he wrote; Dallin also omits any mention of Kreve-Mickevicius and Soviet defector Tokaev, who presented the earliest version of Stalin's war plan, Tokaev arguing that Stalin planned to attack Germany and Finland in August 1941 (p. 34 [Stalin Means War]). It therefore appears that the notion of a Soviet attack to the west in 1941, or 1942, is not quite so absurd, even if the date, which perhaps depended on circumstances as Stalin perceived them, remained open. Was the Soviet army in an attack position on June 22, 1941? It is a point well established by other evidence, such as Czech analyst Karel Erban, writing for his exiled foreign minister, London, June 18, 1941, AMZV, 4-70-114; and by military historian V A Semidetko, pp. 29-31 ["Istoki porazheniia v Belorussii", Voenno-istoricheskii zhurnal, 1989, n0. 4: 22-31]. Like the notion that Stalin conducted a "defensive" policy before the war (suggested as if there were no possible challenge to the notion by Haslam, p. 106 [The Soviet Union and the Struggle for Collective Security in Europe 1933-39, New York, 1984], and by others), the idea that he actually planned an attack to the west assaults the received thinking of countless historians and other writers.
Finally, in relation to the work of the Russian military historian Semidetko mentioned above, Raack provides the following information in Note 24 to his second chapter (page 194):
Semidetko (p. 30) describes a fascinating discovery: the Soviet troops on the White Russian front in June 1941 were in an attack position. Prechnev, on the other hand, maintains (p. 49 ["O nekotorykh problemakh podgotovki strany i vooruzhennykh sil k otrazheniiu fashistskoi agressii", Voenno-istoricheskii zhurnal, 1988, no. 4: 34-42] that the Red Army was rapidly moving toward the German border, implying that this was for defensive purposes, but was not yet, on June 22, in position. See also, on Stalin's dreams of a Drang nach Westen, Semiriaga, "Sovetskii soiuz i predvoennyi politicheskii krizis", p. 61.
So it appears that the jury is still out on the question of whether the Soviet Union was on the point of launching a westward attack in the summer of 1941, an attack that was aborted by the unrelated German attack.

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#2

Post by Indrid » 14 Dec 2002, 14:35

Interesting notes, Michael, though i doubt that these quotes will convince some of the true believers in this forum. In my opinion, it is quite sure, that Stalin planned an expansion of his empire, but the exact timescale of this operation is questionable.


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#3

Post by Brannik » 14 Dec 2002, 19:41

Indrid,nothing short of some sort of a documentary "miracle" will convince the "true believers"(and for that matter,my own self).And by miracle I mean a definitive piece of evidence coming from Moscow.But,since that will NEVER happen(even if there is such a thing,good old Che-Ka has too much of a grip on everything around there), I personally choose to remain "agnostic" on the subject.Meaning that I wouldn't stand behind any of the two hypotheses until one of them is firmly established. But that,as I said,is highly unlikely.

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#4

Post by Brannik » 14 Dec 2002, 19:43

Oh,I forgot to mention that despite the fact that such notes are far from conclusive,they are still very interesting.Keep on posting them :D

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#5

Post by Toivo » 14 Dec 2002, 21:33

Greetings,
Hehe this subject has been around so much (lately).

I have seen (while doing research) enough documents which support belief that Stalin wanted bigger piece of World for now that I can't agree with Oleg or any other "disbeliever" in this case. You point at one document, I point at ten and vice versa. Endless debat. *Shrugs*

There are enough documental proofs that Soviet prepared for offensive type of war but those facts are named "facts" by true believers I bet.
Recently I saw such document in G.Žukov's memoirs (I translate rawly to english at moment)-"Directive nr.0200 from 29th May 1941. To army units in Baltic sector. Secretive. In Riia. By GenLtn Klenov, GenCol Kuznetzov, commisar of Corps Dibrova". 'All artillery personel must quickly learn tank types of Germany and French, by using drawings, placards and modells with technical details. Learn weak spots on those tanks. Every soldier in Red Army must learn to destroy them.
All commisars must work to engourage soldiers of Red Army to fight, act brave and kewl and be agressive.'
Very raw translation 8O
Ofcourse experts (...) here will say Soviet Union prepared for defensive war. But what about that old and weary argument "Soviet Union was unprepared for German assault"??
Why create light tank BT-7 which has range of 700km and speed on road 73km/h (w/o tracks)? T-34, main tank in later defensive battles, had range of 450km and speed 50km/h on roads. You don't massproduce or produce AT ALL light tanks with virtually no armor or decent armament.
Or those tanks never existed in large numbers? OR, they were existing but for defense, BUT, idiotic scientists created wrong type of tanks just? Doubt soviet scientists were fools, they created what Stalin ordered and he wasn't fool either. Etc etc etc.

There are endless facts for both believers of Soviet assault plans and disbelievers but I believe Comitern(sp), Soviet Union at Stalin's time, had obviously so offensive ideogoly that war was only option, either 1941 or 1945 (or even later).

My 2 cents

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#6

Post by michael mills » 15 Dec 2002, 03:15

Indrid, Brannik, ErikHolm

Thank you for your comments on my posting.

I would agree with Brannik that a definitive answer to the question of Stalin's plans in 1941 could only be provided by the discovery of a "smoking gun" in the former Soviet archives, and that is unlikely to occur given the ongoing control of the Russian Government over those archives.

What needs to be clearly understood is that our knowledge of Hitler's planning is far greater than our knowledge of Stalin's planning, simply due to the fact that the German archives were seized by its enemies at the end of the war and investigated for the purpose of finding incriminating material. There was no longer a German Government that could keep documents secret. By contrast, despite the fact that limited access has been given to some of the former Soviet archives, they are still controlled by the Russian Government, which has released material that debunks Stalin, but obviously still has a vested interest in maintaining the mythology of the "Great Patriotic War" as a purely defensive struggle against an "anti-human" enemy.

For that reason, it is a historiographical distortion to compare the rich documentary material from German archives against the dribs and drabs emerging from former Soviet archives and draw the conclusion that the weight of evidence disproves the thesis of a planned Soviet westward offensive and the preventive nature of the German attack. The fact is that not all the evidence has been made available, in particular the full records of Stalin's planning conferences.

The fact is that the whole question has been overlaid by ideological considerations, as is obvious from the postings of some of the "true believers" on this forum. For leftist partisans of the former Soviet Union, whether anti-Stalinist or pro-Stalinist, the motivation is clear; the image of the Soviet Union as the innocent victim of unprovoked aggression by a brutal, inhuman conqueror which sought to enslave its population (the fact that the people of the Soviet Union were already enslaved is ignored) must be preserved at all costs.

For Western historiography, the position is more complex. In fact, mainstream Western historiography up to very recently has tended to agree with the Soviet position that in 1941 it was not planning aggression, and was itself the victim of an unprovoked attack. The reasons for that position are to be sought in the ideological imperatives of the Cold War period.

In the immediate aftermath of the Second World War, Hitler and Nazi Germany were seen as the ultimate, absolute evil (particularly because of their genocidal activities). Accordingly, anyone who fought against Hitler and Nazi Germany was automatically "good", no matter what his other failings. Hence, Stalin and the Soviet Union were "good", and were actively promoted as such by the West while the war was still in progress.

However, once the war against Germany had ended and the Cold War begun, it was necessary to create the image in the public mind of Stalin and the Soviet Union as "bad", despite the fact that during the war they had been regarded in Western public opinion as "good".

The way to do that was to hark back to the Hitler-Stalin Pact and the 1939-1941 period, when Germany and the Soviet Union were co-operating. Under that paradigm, Hitler and Stalin were regarded as "partners in crime", with the image of Stalin becoming "bad" through association with the ultimate "evil" of Hitler.

How then to explain the process whereby Stalin, having been "bad" like Hitler, became a "good" ally of the West? The explanation was that Stalin had been quite prepared to continue being Hitler's "partner in crime" and to continue to reap the benefits of aggression, but had been forced unwillingly to change sides and ally himself with the West solely because of the German attack, which took him completely by surprise.

One early example of the above paradigm is the book I am currently reading, "The Russo-German Alliance, August 1939-June 1941", by "A. Rossi" (nom de plume of ther Italian Socialist Angelo Tasca), French edition 1948, English edition 1950. In his conclusions, Tasca states the following (p. 212):
19. The break between Hitler's Germany and Soviet Russia was a break between two imperialist programmes. It had its origin in the same conflict of interests over the Balkans and the Dardanelles as had already caused a breach between the Germany of William II and the Russia of the Czars in 1914.

20. The Russo-Japanese pact of 13th April, 1941, was a compromise intended to draw Japan away from the Soviet frontiers in the Far East and to force her into collision with Britain and the United States in the Pacific.

21. From the beginning of May, 1941, the Soviet Government made strenuous efforts, through a whole series of measures, to convince Germany of its desire for peace and co-operation, political as well as economic; but from then until the outbreak of war it was unable to renew contact with the German Government, which avoided all discussion.

22. The German-Soviet war was the outcome of a unilateral decision on Germany's part, since Russia had done everything to avoid it. Russia joined the democratic front in June, 1941, simply and solely because Germany forced her to do so at the point of the sword.
Tasca's explanation of the break between Germany and Soviet Union is quite valid, and has been supported by the most recent research. However, his claim that the outbreak of war was purely a result of Germany's "unilateral" action paradoxically coincides with the current leftist, pro-Soviet ideological view.

It was of course impossible for Western historiography to contemplate the possibility that Stalin was planning to attack Hitler, since that would have conflicted with the image of him as "bad"; revelation of such a plan by Stalin would have been interpreted by Western public opinion as a sign of Stalin's "goodness", since everyone who joined in the war against Hitler was by definition "good".

It would have been impossible for public opinion in the West to see an attack by Stalin on Hitler and German-occupied Europe as simultaneously directed against the West. That is demonstrated by the popular view of the Soviet advance into East Europe and Germany in 1944-45 as a "war of liberation" rather than as a war of conquest, which it in fact was, and as which is only now coming to be accepted more and more.

Thus it was that, although defectors such as Tokaev at a very stage revealed Soviet plans for a westward offensive in 1942 at the latest, that information was generally ignored by mainstream Western historigraphy as contrary to the ruling paradigm.

I hope to post further material from Tasca in subsequent messages.

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#7

Post by Caldric » 15 Dec 2002, 12:53

Just wondering what the whole point of it is Michael? We have historical fact that Germany invaded the USSR, not because of a pre-emptive strike but because it was planned for years. There never has been and most likely never will be any orders for an invasion of Germany. Battle plans and offensive doctrine for an invasion of the West does not in any way conclude a 1941 Soviet attack. Troops on the frontier is nothing unusual considering the high tensions of the time and Germany invading every nation on its borders, just makes common sense to me.

I do not doubt that Stalin would have thrown in with France and the UK given that there was a WWI type stalemate on the Western Front. However, Stalin was no fool by any means, a one on one fight with the Germans in 1941 would be damn near suicide. All of the orders given by Stalin during this time period point to a definite hands off militarily. He was more interested in pressure and diplomatic successes then invading.

I must wonder if it is some purpose to defend a German war against USSR. It really is a dead point anyway and has been discussed a hundred times around here and every time there is overwhelming evidence that shows there was no 1941 invasion by the Soviets. Germany started a war of conquest and destruction against the feared and hated Bolshevik USSR.

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#8

Post by Scott Smith » 15 Dec 2002, 13:12

Caldric wrote:We have historical fact that Germany invaded the USSR, not because of a pre-emptive strike but because it was planned for years.
The German General Staff did no planning whatsoever for an invasion of Russia before mid-1940.
:)

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#9

Post by Andy H » 15 Dec 2002, 13:49

In Fugate's & Dvoretsky's book "Thunder on the Dnepr" in goes into some detail about the January'41 war games which were based on a Western attack by Russian forces into Poland & East Prussia, as well as an option to strike in Hungary.

Now you can say that they were only war games but such games within the Soviet form a high basis for there strategic thinking. What is the difference between a game & reality is only the commanders (Stalins) wish that they stay as a game, but reality is only a command away.

:D Andy from the Shire

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#10

Post by Toivo » 15 Dec 2002, 14:53

Greetings,
I wrote so long post (for about half hour atleast) that I copy/pasted it for future essay away from here 8O

I say two things to summarize it

-Reich and Soviet Union during time of Stalin had same, agressive and pro-war nature, same offensive character. Both equally worse and there are enough facts and documents for those who don't close eye on them and can think without dreaming unreal.
-This subject here has been in large percentage discussed by political view or from ideological point of view. One's who think Germany did something good for hiting Stalin in b***s are on wrong way, ones who think Stalin did something good during his lifetime are wrong too.

Both leaders were adventurers and you should leave this on level of leaders in Soviet Union (but not in Reich).

Just few thoughts, could never write down all of them...
P.S. and Caldric check your facts although you have some good points there.

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#11

Post by Caldric » 15 Dec 2002, 19:43

Scott Smith wrote:
Caldric wrote:We have historical fact that Germany invaded the USSR, not because of a pre-emptive strike but because it was planned for years.
The German General Staff did no planning whatsoever for an invasion of Russia before mid-1940.
:)
The German General Staff had no balls anyway, they did what ever the Corporal told them. Hitler was going this road for years he spewed it out on several occasions.

You can not make Germany look like a victim by unfounded accusations that the USSR was going to invade and the German strike was pre-emptive. Germany was the aggressor in WWII, not the victim as many would have us believe.

Erik,
Not sure what facts I need to check either, if you tell me I will look at it as soon as I can.

And please do not try to put Stalinist Apologizer on me ok, I never said nor do I have any respect for him.

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#12

Post by Scott Smith » 16 Dec 2002, 03:57

Caldric wrote:You can not make Germany look like a victim by unfounded accusations that the USSR was going to invade and the German strike was pre-emptive. Germany was the aggressor in WWII, not the victim as many would have us believe.
I don't think I've done that. I object to the image of the Soviet Union as helpless Victim.

In any case, all German planning was against a French-Polish-Czech coalition before 1939. It was not until mid-1940 that the first Barbarossa contingency plans had been done and Hitler made the final decision for an invasion the next year in November, 1940 when he determined that he could not work with Molotov and Stalin because they wanted Rumania and Germany needed the oil (which was paid for in gold).
:)

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#13

Post by Caldric » 16 Dec 2002, 19:26

Scott Smith wrote:
Caldric wrote:You can not make Germany look like a victim by unfounded accusations that the USSR was going to invade and the German strike was pre-emptive. Germany was the aggressor in WWII, not the victim as many would have us believe.
I don't think I've done that. I object to the image of the Soviet Union as helpless Victim.

In any case, all German planning was against a French-Polish-Czech coalition before 1939. It was not until mid-1940 that the first Barbarossa contingency plans had been done and Hitler made the final decision for an invasion the next year in November, 1940 when he determined that he could not work with Molotov and Stalin because they wanted Rumania and Germany needed the oil (which was paid for in gold).
:)
I never said they were helpless victims, and made reference to the fact that the USSR was playing harsh diplomacy. Germany needed the resources of not only the USSR and depended on the trading, but also of Romania and other Eastern Europe nations.

Hitler had planned on destroying the USSR long before 1939 and 1940, true there were no plans before these dates, but living space and some idea of German destiny and Hitlers own personal idea of destiny set the course well before 1940.

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#14

Post by Roberto » 16 Dec 2002, 23:36

michael mills wrote:The following excerpt is from the book "Stalin's Drive to the West 1938-1945: The Origins of the Cold War", by Richard Raack, Professor of History at California State University (yet another book that we can be sure has not been read by those who shout so loudly on this forum).

Professor Raack contends that Stalin had been actively planning a westward invasion ever since 1938, although the actual timing had not been definitely set. It actual occurrence in 1944-45 was not at a time of Stalin's own choosing, since it had been delayed by the German attack of 1941.

The following is from pages 24 and 25 of the book:
The first recorded revelation so far available of the great diemnsion of Stalin's scheme of war and revolution dates from the summer of 1940, when Foreign Minister Molotov and one of Lavrentii Beriia's henchmen in the People's Commissariat for Foreign Affairs (the Narkomindel) excitedly announced the program, once as a major part of a five-hour harangue, for the information of a would-be collaborator from Lithuania. Following Soviet reoccupation in June 1040, of most of the lands that had once belonged to the tsar [=Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia], Molotov sought to overwhelm this stupified candidate, Vincus Kreve-Mickevicius, for a place in one of Stalin's new Baltic satrapies with a jubilant forecast of a grand Red Army march west bearing the revolution even farther, and of a great battle to be fought hundreds of miles to the west near the Rhine to ensure its final triumph. It seems obvious that stalin and Molotov, and probably others in the inner circle of the Kremlin, had been busy inflating these no doubt long held fancies with immediate expectations, for the scheme went very much beyond sitting back to await a breakdown of capitalism in the aftermath of the new European war.

Hints of this scheme had already been put out in discussions with Comintern chiefs in the fall of 1939, and its major aspects were being mooted in more remote Soviet diplomatic circles as early as 1940, and widely leaked. It seems likely, therefore, that it had been much discussed, and - so it appears - triumphantly announced by Molotov for political underpinning and for the psychological relief that conspirators find in sharing secrets with a widening circle of intimates. Indeed, because Molotov was usually no less secretive, and certainly no less conspiratorial, than Stalin, the fact that he incautiously broadcast wild expectations to at least one other party, who eventually relayed it to others, says something about the hubris already abroad in the Kremlin after the Soviet victories to the west, in 1939 and 1940, and the military victory in the Far East over Japan in 1939. Stalin, who was himself sometimes given to odd outbursts, may have been no more tight-lipped. And because the Soviet domestic party information system depended on the word of the leader being passed down through party echelons from top to bottom, it was certain that many were going to know before long what the vozhd' originally had broadcast. It is well known that much drinking went on in STalin's ambiance, following which words doubtlessly also flowed, but with or without alcohol, agreeing with the vozhd' was almost certainly politically correct, as was passing down his genial thoughts; and the chorus of yeas doubtlessly sustained him and others of the inner circle, and some others far beyond, in their revolutionary hopes.

The German-Soviet pact did bring a temporary resolution of Germany's demands for more territory in east central Europe, and it was even more advantageous to the Soviet Union. It also guaranteed Stalin the major force in the east of Europe that he wanted, if, and when, France and England were to confront Germany over its threatened attack on Poland. It also brought him much, beyond these tangible gains, by way of promise to fulfill his grandest imaginings. It is unlikely that Molotov was not blurting out what he truly foresaw in the future when he told what he and Stalin, and perhaps more than a few others outside the inner Kremlin circle, by then had firmly in mind.

He anticipated a long war, and predicted revolution to follow: when war came, the combatants in the West would squander their resources on each other. Following Marxist-Leninist analysis, they would stay with the imperialist conflict until home fronts moved to the verge of collapse. The Soviet Union, meanwhile, would encourage the continuation of the war by helping the Germans just enough to make certain that the conflict was prolonged to the bitter end.

No doubt Stalin and Molotov had in mind the final scenes in this picture of the war to come, tableaux from inside defeated Russia in 1917 and from defeated Germany in 1918, when they signed the pact with Hitler. In such politically disrupted landscapes, so Molotov predicted, Soviet-spread anti-war, anti-imperialist, revolutionary ideology, violently refurbished by the discomforts and discontents of war, would soon flame up in working-class heads all over Europe. The proletarians of the industrialized Western nations would turn against their "imperialist" governments. Soldiers, perhaps even whole armies, would revolt, as many did in 1917 and 1918. The Red Army, finally prepared and armed to the teeth, could be rushed westward into combat in support of the "revolution" in weakened Europe. The Bolshevik sword would be carried even farther, to help local revolutionaries finish off any European powers that still survived. It would tame both these European survivors and any other state (such as the United States - a "swamp", Molotov called it, "whose [prospective] entrance into the war does not worry us in the slightest") that opposed Red Army control of the European land mass. The West, unified under the Communist International, would be red: "The Soviet system", Molotov said, "....shall reign everywhere, throughout all Europe". That was the plot, a fantasy of war, with military slaughter on the Rhine, Marxist-Leninist law, and World War I precedents combined, that lay behind the Kremlin's breathtaking vision of the future. It was. indeed, so exciting and exhilarating a vision that the obvious risks of the undertaking could easily be brushed aside. In any case, after the years of purges, there was probably no one left to point out the risks.
Raack provides the following notes relating to the Soviet invasion plan outlined above:

Note 21:
....................................................

Soviet and post-Soviet historians have recently reported finding Stalin's plan for the war sketched out in several places, with parts or all of it mentioned by L M Mekhlis, E S Varga, and Andrei Zhdanov 9the latter, from 1941: "We have already entered on the path of a policy of attack"), all of whom were part of, or close to, the Kremlin inner circle, between 1939 and 1941. See Volkogonov, p. 10 ["Drama reshenii 1939 goda", Novaiia i noveishaia istoriia, 1989, no. 4: 3-27]; Semiriaga in "17 sentiabria 1939 goda", pp. 14-15 (includes the Zhdanov quote just above), and in "Sovetskii soiuz i predvoennyi politicheskii krizis", pp. 54-61; and Spirin, p. 95 ["Stalin i voina", Voprosy istorii KPSS, 1990, no. 5: 90-105]. Soviet defector Grigorii Tokaev told much of it even earlier: pp. 72-73 [Stalin Means War, London, 1951]; see also Firsov, "Stalin und die Komintern", p. 120; and (on Varga), Duda, p. 159 [Jenoe Varga und die geschichte des Instituts fuer Weltwirtschaft und Weltpolitik in Moskau 1921-1970, Berlin 1994]. Finally, Walter Ulbricht, a German Communist boss close to the Comintern leaders, suggested in a party information meeting in Moscow that the westward thrust of the Red Army after the collapse of the warring powers was one anticipated outcome of the war ("Politischer Informationsabend am 21. 2. 1941", in ZPA, Pieck Nachlass 36/528).
............................................................

Important ideological and political background supporting the notion that Stalin's Drang nach Westen was nothing new in 1939 is in Kaplan, pp. 3, 91 (The Short March. Trans. from the German. London, 1987). My article "Stalin Plans His Post-War Germany" established Stalin's determination to move Communist Party influence and control into Western-occupied, post-war Germany; it seems undeniable that this plan represented a continuation of his plans of 1939-41, adapted to the changed circumstances.
...........................................

Note 22: .....................................
Several authors, writing earlier, have suggested that Stalin actually had a firm date, or at least a firm military plan, for the attack west, which would be directed against the Germans. Certainly the Soviet military was making contingency plans in the spring of 1941 (see "Schukows Angriffsplan" [ Der Spiegel, 1991, no. 24: 140]). This proves little, however, since all military staffs presumably make contingency plans. On the plan, see Gor'kov, "Gotovil li Stalin uprezhdaiushchii udar protiv Gitlera v 1941 g.?". Some of the most controversial assessments of Stalin's intentions in making the pact are in Suworow (Suvorov), Der Eisbrecher, pp. 61-67; on his findings and other evidence to the point, see chap. 2, n.21 [sic! Actually n. 23]; and Topitsch, pp. 7-8, 14-16. The most substantially researched version of the argument is Joachim Hoffmann's "Die Angriffsvorbereitungen der Sowjetunion 1941", in Wegner, ed., Zwei Wege nach Moskau. See also, Semiriaga, "Sovetskii soiuz i predvoennyi politicheskii krizis", p. 61. Suvorov is challenged, to be sure on the basis of limited sources and research superannuated by other findings and revelations when published, by Gabriel Gorodetsky, in the same Wegner-edited volume mentioned above: "The notion that Stalin had in mind an attack on Germany is 'absurd' " ("Stalin und Hitlers Angriff auf die Sowjetunion", p. 362). But Gorodetsky is praised, and his opinion ratified, at least with respect to 1941 and 1942, by Dallin (pp. 20, 28 ["Stalin and the German Invasion", Soviet Union 18 (1991): 19-37]), who neither cites the recent Russian-language accounts nor deals with the primary sources, many of them available when he wrote; Dallin also omits any mention of Kreve-Mickevicius and Soviet defector Tokaev, who presented the earliest version of Stalin's war plan, Tokaev arguing that Stalin planned to attack Germany and Finland in August 1941 (p. 34 [Stalin Means War]). It therefore appears that the notion of a Soviet attack to the west in 1941, or 1942, is not quite so absurd, even if the date, which perhaps depended on circumstances as Stalin perceived them, remained open. Was the Soviet army in an attack position on June 22, 1941? It is a point well established by other evidence, such as Czech analyst Karel Erban, writing for his exiled foreign minister, London, June 18, 1941, AMZV, 4-70-114; and by military historian V A Semidetko, pp. 29-31 ["Istoki porazheniia v Belorussii", Voenno-istoricheskii zhurnal, 1989, n0. 4: 22-31]. Like the notion that Stalin conducted a "defensive" policy before the war (suggested as if there were no possible challenge to the notion by Haslam, p. 106 [The Soviet Union and the Struggle for Collective Security in Europe 1933-39, New York, 1984], and by others), the idea that he actually planned an attack to the west assaults the received thinking of countless historians and other writers.
Finally, in relation to the work of the Russian military historian Semidetko mentioned above, Raack provides the following information in Note 24 to his second chapter (page 194):
Semidetko (p. 30) describes a fascinating discovery: the Soviet troops on the White Russian front in June 1941 were in an attack position. Prechnev, on the other hand, maintains (p. 49 ["O nekotorykh problemakh podgotovki strany i vooruzhennykh sil k otrazheniiu fashistskoi agressii", Voenno-istoricheskii zhurnal, 1988, no. 4: 34-42] that the Red Army was rapidly moving toward the German border, implying that this was for defensive purposes, but was not yet, on June 22, in position. See also, on Stalin's dreams of a Drang nach Westen, Semiriaga, "Sovetskii soiuz i predvoennyi politicheskii krizis", p. 61.
So it appears that the jury is still out on the question of whether the Soviet Union was on the point of launching a westward attack in the summer of 1941, an attack that was aborted by the unrelated German attack.
What appears to me is that, apart from repeating what is largely known already about Soviet expansion policies and the plan to take advantage of a hopefully prolonged and exhausting struggle between Germany and the western powers, Professor Raack - who apparently sypmathizes with the nonsense of Mr. “Suvorov” and his German counterpart, the late Joachim Hoffmann, extensively discussed on the thread

"Stalin's War of Extermination", by Joachim Hoffma
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 2f6bd31887

of this forum – offers no evidence for a Soviet plan to strike at Germany in the summer of 1941.

What he refers to in this respect are the attempts of "Suvorov" and others to make the dislocation and disposition of the Red Army in the spring of 1941, which was related to its operational doctrine of attacking rather than being reduced to defending itself in the event of war, into preparations for an all-out war of aggression and conquest that Stalin did not consider the Red Army to be in conditions of waging, as demonstrated on the a.m. thread.

Contemporary German military intelligence of the Wehrmachtsabteilung Fremde Heere Ost saw the Soviet moves in a rather different light than Suvorov, Hoffmann, and like-minded authors:
Lagebericht Nr.1 vom 15.3.1941:

"Seit der erkennbaren Verstärkung unserer Kräfte im Osten wurden folgende russische Maßnahmen festgestellt und bestätigt: 1.) Durchführung einer Teil-Mobilmachung...2.) Truppenverlegungen...sowie Marschbewegungen im Baltikum in Richtung auf die deutsche Grenze zeigen, dass die russischen Truppen z.Zt. an der Westgrenze aufschließen...Beurteilung: Teilmobilmachung und Aufschließen russischer Truppen zur Grenze ist Defensiv-Maßnahme und dient lediglich zur Verstärkung der Grenzsicherung."
(Quelle: BA-MA Freiburg, RH 19 III/722)
Source of quote: http://hometown.aol.com/wigbertbenz

My translation:
Situation Report No. 1 of 15.3.1941:

"Since the recognizable reinforcement of our forces in the East[emphasis mine] the following Russian measures have been verified and confirmed: 1.) A partial mobilization...2.) Transfer of troops...as well as marching movements in the Baltics in the direction of the German border show that the Russian troops are currently concentrating on the western border...Assessment: partial mobilization and concentration of Russian troops at the border is a defensive measure and is aimed merely at reinforcing border security[emphasis mine]."
(Source: BA-MA [Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv = Federal Archives-Military Archives of the FRG], Freiburg, RH 19 III/722)
Feindbeurteilung vom 20.5.1941:

"Die Rote Armee steht mit der Masse der Verbände des europäischen Teils der UdSSR, d.h. mit rund 130 Schützendivisionen - 21 Kavalleriedivisionen - 5 Panzerdivisionen - 36 mot.-mech. Panzerbrigaden entlang der Westgrenze von Czernowitz bis Murmansk...Die Tatsache, dass bisher weit günstigere Gelegenheiten eines Präventivkrieges (schwache Kräfte im Osten, Balkankrieg) von der UdSSR nicht ausgenutzt wurden, ferner das gerade in letzter Zeit fühlbare politische Entgegenkommen und festzustellende Bestreben der Vermeidung möglicher Reibungspunkte lassen eine Angriffsabsicht unwahrscheinlich erscheinen... Grenznahe, zähe Verteidigung, verbunden mit Teilangriffen zu Beginn des Krieges und während der Operationen als Gegenangriffe gegen den durchgebrochenen Feind...erscheint aufgrund der politischen Verhältnisse und des bisher erkennbaren Aufmarsches am wahrscheinlichsten."
(Quelle: BA-MA Freiburg, RH 2/1983)
Source of quote:

http://hometown.aol.com/wigbertbenz

My translation:
Assessment of the Enemy, 20.5.1941:

"The Red Army stands with the mass of its units in the European part of the USSR, i.e. with about 130 rifle divisions - 21 cavalry divisions - 5 tank divisions - 36 motorized – mechanized tank brigades, along the western border from Czernowitz to Murmansk. The fact that hitherto far more advantageous opportunities for a preventive war (weak forces in the East, war in the Balkans) have not been taken advantage of by the USSR, furthermore the political condescension that has made itself especially felt more recently and the apparent endeavor to avoid possible points of friction, let the possibility of an attack seem improbable... Tough defense near the border, combined with partial attacks at the beginning of the war and during the operations as counterattacks against the enemy who has broken through ... are what in the face of the political situation and the so far recognizable order of battle seems most probable."
(Source: BA-MA [Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv = Federal Archives-Military Archives of the FRG], Freiburg, RH 2/1983)
Until the theorists of a “preventive strike” can offer something better than “Stalin was a bad guy who intended to expand his empire” (thanks, we know that) and/or “the Red Army seems to have been moving into an attack position in the spring of 1941” (the Red Army’s moves were a consequence of its operational doctrine and might just as well be and were in fact seen as a preparation for an eventual German attack, see above), the assessment of such theories by German historian Hermann Graml remains valid.
Graml (Wolfgang Benz et al, [i]Legenden, Lügen, Vorurteile[/i], 12th edition 2002 by dtv Munich, page 194, my translation) wrote: Operation Barbarossa
On 22 June 1941 153 divisions of the Wehrmacht of National Socialist Germany – together with units of the armies of allied states like Finland, Romania and Hungary – crossed the borders of the Soviet Union. Since the Second World War this operation, prepared under the code name “Barbarossa”, was unanimously considered by research on contemporary history as the classic example of a war of aggression. Only a secondary question was controversially discussed: Did the “Führer” of the Third Reich in his decision to attack principally intend to serve the goal contained in his ideology, i.e. the goal, insistently propagated since “Mein Kampf”, to conquer “living space in the East” for the German nation and for a German world empire? Or was the motivation stronger that resulted for him when, after the victorious campaigns in eastern, northern and western Europe, he was faced with the fact that the still unbeaten Great Britain did not think of acknowledging his domination of the European continent, and therefrom derived the conclusion that he must deprive the British government of the hope on its last “continental blessing” by conquering Russia?
Recently, however, the assertion has come up that Hitler’s attack barely anticipated a preventive war by Stalin, and some in the meantime go as far as maintaining that Hitler’s attack was a preventive strike not only objectively but also intended to be one by the “Führer”. The last to come up with this was “Victor Suvorov”. This pseudonym allegedly stands for a Soviet officer – or a group of officers – who until the beginning of the 1980s, until he (they) went over to the West, worked for the military secret service of the USSR. In his book ‘The Icebreaker. Hitler in Stalin’s Calculus’ “Suvorov” even gives the date of Stalin’s assault: 6 July 1941. The fact that reviewers in the German press manifested themselves impressed by the ‘Icebreaker’, however, has to do only with the widespread demand for apologetic literature and not at all with the quality of the writing. For a closer look reveals that “Suvorov” cannot provide plausible arguments let alone documentary evidence in support of his theses. This is not surprising given that in the encirclement battles of 1941 the German troops, although the staffs of armies and army groups fell into their hands, did not capture a single document that would indicate plans by Stalin for a preventive war, and such are lacking to this day. All that “Suvorov” does is to arbitrarily declare the dislocation of the Red Army in the spring of 1941 to have been a marching-up for a preventive strike, and the few citations from memoirs of Soviet military men that he tries to support this act of arbitrariness with are revealed by examination as shameless forgeries of the original texts. The political agenda of such pamphlets, i.e. the warning against a basic aggressiveness of Soviet foreign policy, is obvious.
In fact Hitler and the leading circles of the Third Reich grasped the idea of soon attacking Russia still during the campaign in France, as Chief of General Staff Franz Halder recorded in his diary. As long as they hoped they could count on the British giving in after the conquest of Western Europe, that “Führer” and his National Socialist minions thought of the war for “living space” required by National Socialist ideology, while for instance the military considered the march into the Baltics and the Ukraine to be tempting because their inherited German-national imperialism reawakened when they saw the triumph in the West in sight.
As early as 21 July 1940 Hitler ordered to prepare the attack on the Soviet Union, having the autumn of 1940 in mind as the time. After his military advisers had convinced him that the marching-up would take considerably longer and that additional forces were required, Hitler on 31 July gave the order to direct the planning towards an attack in the spring of 1941. On 18 December 1940 there followed Directive Number 21 with the final setting of “Operation Barbarossa”. The date was 15 May 1941, which then had to be exceeded by several weeks due to the perceived need of conquering Yugoslavia and assisting the Italian ally in Greece. Hitler’s ideological motivation was there as before, though now ever more overlaid by the argument that Great Britain must be deprived of the USSR as a potential ally. Both were independent of recognized or even suspected Soviet behavior. Not for an instant did Hitler believe that the Soviet Union – internally unstable and depending on an army without the power required for an offensive against a modern enemy, for it was equipped with qualitatively insufficient weapons and had lost a high percentage of its officer corps through Stalin’s purges of 1937-1939 – was able to carry out an attack on the German Reich, especially after the latter’s successes in Poland, Norway, Western Europe and most recently in the Balkans.
Stalin was of the same opinion, but until the spring of 1941 he convinced himself that Hitler would not be so foolish as to attack Russia, which after all was strong in the defensive, as long as Great Britain was still unbeaten. Warnings from London about the German intentions of attack he for a long time considered to be attempts to induce him to hostile actions against Germany in order to take the pressure off Great Britain. Only in April and May 1941, when the German marching-up had taken a dimension that could no longer be interpreted as a basis for political pressure maneuvers, there began unsystematic reactions including a transfer of troops from the eastern parts of the Union to the western regions, and only from mid-June onward, after Churchill had been able to provide an exact image of the German marching-up and the German planning on hand of decoded German radio messages, Stalin ordered radical defensive measures, which due to the now inevitable hectic did more harm than good, however, and contributed to the heavy Soviet defeats in the first weeks of the war.

michael mills
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#15

Post by michael mills » 17 Dec 2002, 16:38

Caldric wrote:
Just wondering what the whole point of it is Michael?
This is supposed to be a discussion forum, not a mutual ego-stroking club for people who think the same way, ergo new material should be introduced into it. It is to individual readers whether they assimilate the material, for the purpose of extending their knowledge of the subject, or reject it as being contrary to their preconceived notions.
There never has been and most likely never will be any orders for an invasion of Germany
No order signed by Stalin for an attack on German-occupied Europe in 1941 or 1942 has yet been found. However, as I pointed out, Soviet archives have not yet been searched to anywhere near the extent as the Nazi German archives, so the fact that something has not been found is not conclusive. Nevertheless, Russian historians have found more and more material showing an offensive rather than defensive disposition of the Soviet armed forces in the Spring and early Summer of 1941.
However, Stalin was no fool by any means, a one on one fight with the Germans in 1941 would be damn near suicide. All of the orders given by Stalin during this time period point to a definite hands off militarily. He was more interested in pressure and diplomatic successes then invading.
At the end of 1940, Stalin had no fear of Germany whatever. That is shown by the demands which Molotov made on his visit to Berlin in Novemberr of that year - basically to allow the Soviet Union to occupy the whole of the Balkan region and Turkey in the South and Finland in the North, thereby cutting Germany off from its sources of supply and reducing it to a satellite of the Soviet Union. Molotov also signalled a revision of the division of Poland, meaning a further Soviet adavance to the West. If Stalin had been afraid of Germany, he would not have made those demands, but would have sought to placate Germany by joinign the Three-Power Pact on the terms proposed by Germany, ie expansion to the South into Iran and India rather than west into Europe.

The British air-raid on Berlin that took place during Molotov's visit was evidence of Germany's weakness - it could not prevent the enemy from bombing its capital. Molotov's reaction to the raid ("If Britain is defeated, who is bombing you?") shows that he was aware of Germany's inability to defeat Britain and hence its relative weakness.

After Molotov returned to Moscow, Stalin sent a letter offering to join the Three-Power Pact, but on terms that he knew Germany could not possibly accept without surrendering to Soviet hegemony; in other words, he was refusing to join and become Germany's ally. Stalin must have known that, given the dispute over the domination of the Balkans, the only alternatives were an alliance with Germany or else war with it. By rejecting the role suggested for the Soviet Union by Hitler (Hegemony over the Middle East and South Asia), Stalin was consciously choosing the path leading to war, regardless of who would eventually attack first. It would not be surprising if he then moved to place the Red Army on a full war footing, either to repel a German attack or to launch its own attack.

One element in Soviet preparations was the non-aggression pact with Japan of 13 April 1941, which was signed at short notice when the Soviet Union suddenly dropped all the conditions that had been holding up negotiations. Through that pact, the Soviet Union protected its rear, and could concentrated its forces against Germany.

As to Stalin's orders, has anyone ever seen a full set of those orders, corresponding to Hitler's war directives, which are known in detail? I would suggest that many of Stalin's most crucial orders are still buried in the Presidential Archive, which is not open to researchers.

It may well be true that Stalin was more interested in pressure and diplomatic successes than invading. But that applies in equal measure to Hitler, who resorted to invasion when he could not get what he wanted by other means. Stalin had tried to get what he wanted, hegemony over South-East Europe and the Baltic, by blackmailing Germany, to use Hitler's expression, but had failed, antagonising Germany in the process. It is entirely possible that he then decided on the preparation of a military offensive to gain that hegemony.
I must wonder if it is some purpose to defend a German war against USSR.
That is simply a diversion. Whenever material is introduced that challenges conventional wisdom, the accusation of "defending" Germany, or Nazism, is raised. The question here is one of determining the full true context in which the German attack on the Soviet Union took place.
It really is a dead point anyway and has been discussed a hundred times around here ...
That may well be, but that is no reason why it should not be further discussed. Of course it is boring if the same old material is recycled, but I am constantly introducing new material into the debate.
and every time there is overwhelming evidence that shows there was no 1941 invasion by the Soviets
I do not think anybody is arguing that there was a Soviet invasion in 1941. The question is whether the Soviet Government was planning and preparing for an invasion some time in the summer of 1941, an invasion that did not take place because Germany launched its own invasion first (not necessarily because it knew about Soviet preparations). As I wrote, the jury is still out on that one, although more and more evidence of Soviet offensive preparations is coming to light.
Germany started a war of conquest and destruction against the feared and hated Bolshevik USSR.
The conclusion of observers immediately after the war, eg Angelo Tasca, whom I have quoted, was that Germany attacked the Soviet Union for strategic rather than ideological reasons. That is, the Soviet Union would eventually have to take sides, either allying itself fully with Germany against Britain, or breaking with Germany and joining Britain. Germany realised that the price demanded by the Soviet Union for joining the Three-Power Pact was too high, essentially hegemony over all of East Europe and hence over Germany itself, and that therefore it was faced with the choice between surrendering to Soviet hegemony or else going to war with it before it became too strong.

The post-war observers believed that, if the Soviet Union had been prepared to join the Three-Power Pact on the terms proposed by Germany, ie it would have given up any ambitions for further westward expansion and would have expanded to the south and east, Germany would not have invaded it.

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