Kursk battle

[weiwensg]

I recently received some feedback that some of the information in my website on Kursk is inaccurate:
http://www.geocities.com/weiwen_sg/HOOB6.htm (refer to chapter 17)

The person giving the feedback is clearly a specialist (on Kursk at least) compared to me, and given my limited time (I'm in the army and have to return to camp tonight ), I'd like to ask for feedback. My text is in bold and his comments follows.

"On July 11, a great tank battle in the village of Prokhorovka raged between Hoth's crack panzer grenadier division and Russians T-34 tanks."

Minoqr quibble, but I believe most modern historians define the battle as beginning on July 12. Also, by stating "Hoth's crack panzer grenadier division", are you limiting the battle to merely LSSAH's front, as opposed tothe rest of II SS Panzer Korps and even III Pz. units? And a mention of Rotmistrov's 5th GTA probably wouldn't hurt.

"For the Germans, the battle meant everything. If they won, they would be able to cross the Psel River and breakthrough into open territory."

Well, I don't think it meant everything. It was important, as Hoth had long planned on dealing with the Soviet armoured reserve in this area, though he had originally planned to bring much more force to bear.

"It was essentially a showdown between the two models of tanks, the German Panther (and also the Tiger) and the Russian T-34."

AFAIK, no Panthers were ever used by II SS Panzer korps in Zitadelle.

At sunset, the Germans had suffered losses of around 370 tanks and 10 000 men. Russian losses were substantially higher.

The German forces involved in the bigger scale battle hardly lost that many tanks, let alone LSSAH by itself. At most they lost ~50 panzers, counting all units taking part in the battle.

Manpower losses for all units were prob ~5000, nothing out of the ordinary for such intense fighting.

The Soviets on the otherhand lost enormous amounts, which you correctly point out.

However, the threatened breakthrough was blocked temporarily.

It was only blocked in the sense that Vatutin had thrown his last significant armored reserve (5th GTA) through the meat grinder to spare him a few days. Nothing else stood in the way of a German advance besides Hitler.

I do agree that I have left out the 5th Guards Tank Army but am not so sure about most of the other figures and information. Could someone provide an opinion on the comments and text?

(Main page: http://www.geocities.com/weiwen_sg/main.html)

[Kunikov]

It was only blocked in the sense that Vatutin had thrown his last significant armored reserve (5th GTA) through the meat grinder to spare him a few days. Nothing else stood in the way of a German advance besides Hitler.

The rest of the Steppe front could have stood in the way, aside from the ensuing operations launched to take Belgorod, Orel, and Kharkov which would have diverted the Germans from any further offensive operations.

[Alex Yeliseenko]

Prokhorovka battle 12/7/1943.

Provisional estimation of losses of opponents according to Lev Lopukhovsky

Red Army - 230-235 (irreparable)

Deutsche Heer (Wermacht and SS) - nearby 40 (irreparable)

[Alex Yeliseenko]

There are also data on the general losses of opponents in tanks and SPG on July, 12th.

Into this number enter irreparable and damaged tanks and SPG.

By estimations L.Lopukhovsky the Soviet losses have made 385 tanks and SPG

German losses (data Engelmann) approximately 193 tanks and SPG

[Michate]

Unfortunately the data from Engelmann is not well referenced.

[TexasRanger]

Glantz's "Battle of Kursk" lists for Soviet losses (German numbers unavail):

Soviet
Kursk defensive operation: Men committed: 1,910,361 Lost: 177,847. Tanks and SP Guns: Committed: 5,128 Lost: 1,614
Orel offensive operation: C: 1,286,049 L: 429,890 TC: 3,324 TL: 2,586
Belgorod-Khar'kov offensive operation: C: 980,588 L: 255,566 TC: 2,439 TL: 1,864

[Qvist]

AFAIK, no Panthers were ever used by II SS Panzer korps in Zitadelle.

This is correct.

The German forces involved in the bigger scale battle hardly lost that many tanks, let alone LSSAH by itself. At most they lost ~50 panzers, counting all units taking part in the battle.

Manpower losses for all units were prob ~5000, nothing out of the ordinary for such intense fighting.

The Soviets on the otherhand lost enormous amounts, which you correctly point out.

What is concerned here? Just the losses on the first day of Prokhorovka, or during the offensive as a whole? You will in any case find precise figures on many past threads. The Germans (that is, SS-LAH) lost only a small handful of tanks at Prokhorovka, 5GTA lost a very large number. Talk of several hundred German tanks lost is entirely mythical.

It's important to understand that most published English accounts of this battle prior to the books by Glantz/House, Nipe and Zetterling/Franksson were not merely inaccurate, but, in major aspects, basically without any semblance whatsoever to actual reality. Robin Cross at least quotes some more accurate figures, but that aside, I don't hestitate to say that any book on Kursk in English predating Glantz/House can safely be regarded as a piece of junk.

cheers

[weiwensg]

thanks for the additional comments so far, i'm now piecing a provisional rewrite. does anyone have info on the 5th gta during the kursk operation?

[Qvist]

See f.e. here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... ight=kursk

If you do a forum search on "Kursk" and browse around a bit, you will find much more information. It's been covered numerous times.

cheers

[weiwensg]

thanks so much. (i was searching for the "5th gta" but didn't get anything much.)

[T71herb]

What is concerned here? Just the losses on the first day of Prokhorovka, or during the offensive as a whole?

The relative scale of the Prokhorovka battle, and how one chooses to define it. It can be either limited to ISSAH's front, or can it be seen on a slightly bigger scale, including II SS Panzer and III Panzer's sectors, where they too took on Rotmistrov's tank-wave.

I choose the slightly bigger definition, whereas you choose the more limited one.

You will in any case find precise figures on many past threads.

I'm sure only in as much as one can gain a close figure, not quiet precise. The German records are slightly too vague for such a detailed number lost, but they do give us a very good idea.

The Germans (that is, SS-LAH) lost only a small handful of tanks at Prokhorovka, 5GTA lost a very large number. Talk of several hundred German tanks lost is entirely mythical.

I don't hestitate to say that any book on Kursk in English predating Glantz/House can safely be regarded as a piece of junk.

Glantz' work, while improving on the past mythical versions, still falls short on the full story.

[Kurt_Steiner]

I have a doubt.

Álvaro Lozano, in his book, Kursk, 1943. La Batalla Decisiva, quoting Cross' The Batle of Kursk, claims the following:

The 10th Panzergranadier Div was defending the Hill 253,3, on the northern part of the attack against Kursk. During July 12th, the unit falls under a heavy aritllery barrage fire and its positions are attacked three tomes, one of them donde by Russian cavalry, which is annhilated till the last man and horse.

I thought that the Russian did only attack with cavalry in the early stages of the war in the Eastern front. But cavalry against panzergrenadieren?

Did that really happen?

[Gregory Deych]

I have a doubt.

I thought that the Russian did only attack with cavalry in the early stages of the war in the Eastern front. But cavalry against panzergrenadieren?

Did that really happen?

Sure - cavalry was employed up until the end of the war. Panzergrenadiers are just as vulnerable to cavalry tanks, artillery, machine guns, rifles and even sabers as anybody else.

[Art]

The story looks like a fisherman's tale. There were no large-size cavalry units on that sector of the front that time. The recon detachments of the rifle units were the largest ones that could be actually engaged in actions. And I looked in Cross' book, he just writes that 10 PzGD repulsed the cavalry atack with the strong machine-gun fire but without such bloodcurdling details as anihilation till the lat men.

[Yuri]

I have a doubt.

Álvaro Lozano, in his book, Kursk, 1943. La Batalla Decisiva, quoting Cross' The Batle of Kursk, claims the following:

The 10th Panzergranadier Div was defending the Hill 253,3, on the northern part of the attack against Kursk. During July 12th, the unit falls under a heavy aritllery barrage fire and its positions are attacked three tomes, one of them donde by Russian cavalry, which is annhilated till the last man and horse.

I thought that the Russian did only attack with cavalry in the early stages of the war in the Eastern front. But cavalry against panzergrenadieren?

Did that really happen?

Yes!
The proof