Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

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Art
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Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

Post by Art » 20 Jul 2007 15:59

Here is some new data on the Soviet losses in the battle of Berlin (April - May 1945). All figures unless specified are taken from "Berlin of 1945" by A. Isaev:
http://www.knor.ru/cgi-bin/base.pl?a=1191214
First let me remind of the well-known figures from Krivosheev's book.
Personnel losses in the BoB (16th April - 8th May 1945):
Image
Here the term "irrecoverable losses" stands for dead and missing, "sanitary" for wounded in action, sick and injured in accidents. 1 and 2 PA = 1st and 2md Polish Armies.
Detalization of losses of 1st Belorussian Front - the breakdown by armies (11th- 30th April):
Image
1 GTA = 1st Guards Tank Army
3 SA = 3rd Shock Army
8 GA = 8th Guards Army
16 AA = 16th Air Army
Others = Units subordinated directly to the front.
1 PA = 1st Polish Army
The same breakdown for the period 1st - 9th May:
Image
It is intersting to compare the figures with the replacements recieved by the armies of 1 BF during April:
Image
It is clear from these figures that replacements were in most cases completely unsufficient to compensate for the losses.
The breakdown of losses of 1 BF by date and armies (14.04 - 19.04) KIA/WIA:
Image
The figures for 14th April could be incomplete in regard to 8 GA.

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 20 Jul 2007 16:18

Yes. They are excellent data.

You can make the same tables on tanks and SPG?

The hope, Alexey was close, copying data from TSAMO.......

Regards.

Alex.

Mensk - Siberia.

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Post by Art » 20 Jul 2007 16:24

The breakdown of losses of the 8th Guards Army (1st BF) 21-30.04:
Image
GRD = Guards Rifle Division
NL = non-cambat losses (in this context most probably dead)
I've just noticed that the figure of WIAin 88 GRD line is incorrect. It should be read as 969.
Including the losses of separate units the Army lost 10 356 men between 21th and 30th April.
The breakdown of losses of 69th Army 11-20.04:
Image
The same breakdown for 21-30.04:
Image
The breakdown of the losses of the same army by date 23-29.04:
Image
Losses of divisions of 33the Army, replacements received in April and the strength on 30.04
Image
FR = Fortified Region
From 20th to 30th April the 3rd Shock Army lost 12 130 men (2 151 KIA, 9 433 WIA, 59 MIA, 41 as non-cobat losses, 446 sick.
The losses of 1st Ukrainain front in April (not so detailed as for 1 BF):
Image
Some additional information on the loses of some armies of the front:
3rd Guards Army 11-20.04 - 1 231 KIA, 6 207 WIA, 39 non-cmbat losses, 486 sick
2nd Polish Army for the whole operation - 4 902 KIA, 10 532 WIA, 2 798 MIA, total - 18 232. Strange enough these figures are significanlty higher than those given by Krivosheev for both Polish armies.
3rd Guards Tank Army:
16-20th April - 164 KIA, 621 WIA, 9 MIA, 58 sick, 5 other losses, total - 839
21st April - 2nd May - 1 387 KIA, 4 954 WIA, 69 MIA, 60 sick, 22 other losses.
The last figures are from "3rd Guards Tank Army in the Battle of Berlin" by D. Shein
Last edited by Art on 20 Jul 2007 16:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Art » 20 Jul 2007 16:27

Alex Yeliseenko wrote:You can make the same tables on tanks and SPG?
Yes, I'll post them tomorrow.

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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 20 Jul 2007 16:32

ОК. I think, it is necessary to solve the problem and on German losses.

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Kunikov
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Post by Kunikov » 20 Jul 2007 17:05

So did you find that Krivosheev was close to what Isaev gives in terms of overall numbers?

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 20 Jul 2007 17:28

At first sight close data.

I have suspicions, that data Krivosheyev on tanks are a little bit overestimated. But I have no proofs.

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 20 Jul 2007 18:47

Art wrote:2nd Polish Army for the whole operation - 4 902 KIA, 10 532 WIA, 2 798 MIA, total - 18 232. Strange enough these figures are significanlty higher than those given by Krivosheev for both Polish armies.
Not strange at all. Polish 2nd Army suffered horrible losses during the fights near Dresden (Bautzen, Hoyerswerda). Due to an unexpected Schörner's offensive a large part of the 2nd Army was routed.

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Post by Alex Yeliseenko » 20 Jul 2007 18:59

Musashi wrote:
Art wrote:2nd Polish Army for the whole operation - 4 902 KIA, 10 532 WIA, 2 798 MIA, total - 18 232. Strange enough these figures are significanlty higher than those given by Krivosheev for both Polish armies.
Not strange at all. Polish 2nd Army suffered horrible losses during the fights near Dresden (Bautzen, Hoyerswerda). Due to an unexpected Schörner's offensive a large part of the 2nd Army was routed.
Polish losses in battle for Bautzen:

205 tanks and SPG

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Post by Art » 21 Jul 2007 11:30

Musashi wrote: Not strange at all. Polish 2nd Army suffered horrible losses during the fights near Dresden (Bautzen, Hoyerswerda).
I mean it's strange that Krivosheev gives completely different figures. I used to think that for the second half of the war, the data from his book are more or less credible. BTW German counteroffensive as far as I undertsand was not completely sudden, but Konev as chess-players say in such situations simply "yawn" it.

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Post by Art » 21 Jul 2007 11:32

For better orientation - the scheme showing the course of the battle of Berlin:
http://hamster02.narod.ru/158.jpg

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Post by Art » 21 Jul 2007 12:37

The daily breakdown of losses of tanks and SP-guns - 1st Belorussian Front:
Image
Source: «Russian Archive. The Great Patriotic War. The Battle of Berlin" Vol. 15(4-5)
"Other losses" seem to be non-combat losses.
There are several interesting features in the table. First it shows that losses during 16-17 April were not as critical as it is usually believed as a result of the myths surrounding the actions on Seelow heights - the losses suffered on 19th April were more severe. Second, the table shows the critical character of the 19th April - the tank losses began to decrease after that day. This is in a good agreement with the course of the operation, since 19th-20th April were the days when the German defense was finally overrun and began to fall to pieces. And finally the table shows some increase in losses after 27th April which is most likely must attributed to the battles inside Berlin. However, the losses remain to be lower then those suffered on open terrain during 16-20th April.
It is also interesting to look at the losses of 1st Guards Tank Army.
During 16th April it lost 13 tanks destroyed, 17 damaged, 4 SU-76 destroyed, 2 SU-85 damaged,
during 17th April - destroyed: 13 T-34, 3 IS-2, 1 SU-100, 2 SU-76, damaged: 24 T-34, 1 SU-100, 2 SU-85.
The statement is made rather frequently that Zhukov committing prematurely tank armies to action had simply burned them to ashes. As it is seen from the losses of 1 GTA, both in AFVs and in personnel (see above) this statement is far from truth. The tank losses were medium, the personnel losses - even less then medium.
In all for 16-20 April 1 GTA lost 128 tanks and SP-guns destroyed.
For the whole operation (16.04-2.05): 185 T-34, 12 IS-2, 3 ISU-122, 5 SU-85, 8 SU-100, 16 SU-76, 3 SU-57, total - 232 AFVs.
2 GTA lost (16.04-2.05): 123 T-34, 53 M4A2, 7 IS-2, 7 SU-100, 1 SU-85, 6 SU-76, total - 209 AFVs. From them for the period 22.04-2.05: 52 T-34, 32 M4A2, 4 IS-2, 4 ISU-122, 5 SU-100, 2 SU-85 (?), 6 SU-76.
The breakdown by corps 16-21.04:
9th Guards Tank Corps - 26 KIA, 581 WIA. Destroyed - 28 T-34, 2 ISU-122, 2 SU-100, damaged - 30 T-34, 2 SU-100, 1 M-17.
12 GTC - 148 KIA, 656 WIA. Destroyed – 43 T-34, damaged – 48 T-34, 2 IS-2, 1 SU-100, 2 SU-76
1 Mechanized Corps – 91 KIA, 384 WIA. Destroyed - 20 M4, 1 SU-76. Damaged – 59 M4, 1 SU-76, 1 ISU-122.
See the distribution of the losses (damaged and destroyed) by type of AFV and the cause of damage in the table:
Image
The table showing the losses of 11th Tank Corps (Destroyed/Damaged):
Image
The personnel losses of the corps amounted to 483 KIA and 1650 WIA.
For the period 16-22.04 the corps lost 41 T-34, 3 IS-2, 2 SU-76 destroyed, 94 T-34, 6 IS-2, 13 SU-85/100, 5 SU-76 damaged, 369 KIA, 1291 WIA.
The data for 1st Ukrainian front are less detailed. It is known that between 16th April and 2nd May it lost 593 tanks and 259 SPG, total - 852 AFVs. I don't know whether the losses of Polish troops are included.
The losses of 3rd Guards Tank Army amounted to 174 tanks and 30 SPG, from them 99 tanks and 15 SPG during the battles inside Berlin and in its suburbs (23.04 - 2.05).
The table showing the losses of 3 GTA(destroyed/overall):
Image
See also the graphs here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 66#1063366
The losses of 4 GTA 16.04-22.04
Image
4 GTA 23.04-2.05 (destroyed/damaged):
Image

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Post by konev » 21 Jul 2007 13:16

Art and all,

There has been some heated debate about the figures Kirosheev gives in is book (books actually since there is a 2d edition).

Some people cannot figure out how he got to some of his numbers.

I am trying to resolve this issue. Will keep you posted.

konev

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 21 Jul 2007 21:55

Alex Yeliseenko wrote:
Musashi wrote:
Art wrote:2nd Polish Army for the whole operation - 4 902 KIA, 10 532 WIA, 2 798 MIA, total - 18 232. Strange enough these figures are significanlty higher than those given by Krivosheev for both Polish armies.
Not strange at all. Polish 2nd Army suffered horrible losses during the fights near Dresden (Bautzen, Hoyerswerda). Due to an unexpected Schörner's offensive a large part of the 2nd Army was routed.
Polish losses in battle for Bautzen:

205 tanks and SPG
As you know Polish a bit, you can read an article from the Polish Wikipedia. Our losses (KIA + MIA + WIA) were 18,000 soldiers, so the number provided by Art seems to be accurate.
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitwa_pod_ ... nem_(1945)

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Post by Gregory Deych » 22 Jul 2007 23:51

I would not necessarily take the dates on which the losses are recorded as the gospel truth. While the aggregate losses over several days are likely correct, it's possible that severe daily loss is being spread over several days - to smooth out the curve, so to speak.

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