Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

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Art
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Re: Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

Post by Art » 18 Oct 2019 10:53

Personnel casualties of the 2 Belorussian Front in the Stettin-Rostock operation (16 April - 8 May 1945)

- Official numbers from Krivosheev ("Soviet casualties and combat losses"):
13 070 irrevocable (killed, missing etc) and 46 040 medical (wounded and sick) total 59 110

- Day by day count from the 2 BF war diary: 5 503 killed and 20 973 wounded, total 26 476 from 16 April to 7 May 45.

- Medical casualties according to the review of rear services operations of the 2 BF in April 45 (appendix to the war diary):
17 297 wounded and 5787 sick accepted by hospitals 19-30.4.45
Total medical casualties in April 45: 29 695 wounded and 5787 sick

- Medical casualties of the 2 BF according to the review of rear services operations in May 1945:
20-30.4.45 - 16 754 wounded and 4745 sick
1-15.5.45 - 3155 wounded and 6406 sick
Total in operation: 19 909 wounded and 11 151 sick, sum 31 060

Conclusion: official numbers are strongly exaggerated for unknown reasons. Actual battle casualties were hardly larger than 30 000 men.

BartekPL
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Re: Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

Post by BartekPL » 27 Dec 2019 01:50

Art wrote:
23 Jan 2016 14:37
A curious document quoting armored losses of the 1 Belorussian Front in the Berlin operation by units and types of vehicles:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/dou/?docID=152125972
From 14 April to 5 May 1945 the following numbers of tanks and SP guns were lost:

(...)

1 Polish Army
4 Tank Regiment – 6/3 IS
13 SPR – 9/4 SU-85, 8/2 ISU-152
2 and 3 SPB – 4/3 SU-76
70 SPB – 2/1 SU-57
Total 29/13

(...)
This part of a document is wrong though. First thing - there was no such thing as "70 SPB" in the Polish 1st Army, the correct unit is 7 sdas (7 samodzielny dywizjon artylerii samochodowej/samobieżnej - Polish 7th Independent Self-Propelled Artillery Squadron(/in English books the correct equivalent of Polish "dywizjon" is battalion)). The second thing - not all units are listed.

Here are the reported numbers of SU-57, SU-76M, SU-85 and ISU-152 in the 1.AWP, before, after the fights and losses summed up:

15th April, 1945:

A) 1 das (Polish 1st Self-Propelled Artillery Battalion - part of Polish 1st "Tadeusz Kościuszko" "Warsaw" Infantry Division) - 4 SU-76M in working order, 1 SU-76M under repair,

B) 2 das (Polish 2nd Self-Propelled Artillery Battalion - part of Polish 2nd "Henryk Dąbrowski" "Warsaw" Infantry Division) - 9 SU-76M in working order,

C) 3 das (Polish 3rd Self-Propelled Artillery Battalion - part of Polish 3rd "Romuald Traugutt" "Pomeranian" Infantry Division) - 10 SU-76M in working order,

D) 4 das (Polish 4th Self-Propelled Artillery Battalion - part of Polish 4th "Jan kiliński" "Pomeranian" Infantry Division) - 8 SU-76M in working order,

E) 7 sdas (Polish 7th Independent Self-Propelled Artillery Battalion) - 7 SU-57 in working order,

F) 13 „Warszawski” pas (Polish 13th "Warsaw" Self-Propelled Artillery Regiment) - 12 SU-85 in working order, 2 SU-85 under repair, 9 ISU-152 in working order,

G) 1 „Warszawski” sbrozp (Polish 1st "Warsaw" Independent Motorized Reconnaissance Battalion) - 2 T-70M in working order,

There was also 5 das (Polish 5th Self-Propelled Artillery Battalion) - part of Polish 6th "Pomeranian" Infantry Division, quite interesting unit - it never received SU-76M, therefore it didn't take part in fights, however in the April of 1945 the unit received previously captured and now repaired German AFVs. This unit operated 3 Jagdpanzer 38(t), 3 Sturmgeschütz 40 Ausf. G, 1 PzKpfw IV Ausf. J of the very late production, 1 Sd.Kfz.251/17, 1 improvised armoured personnel carrier "EPA" (basically Marder III without a gun), on 15th April 1945 it reported 8 AFVs on strenght.

10th May, 1945:

A) 1 das - 4 SU-76M in working order, 1 SU-76M under repair,

B) 2 das - 6 SU-76M in working order,

C) 3 das - 8 SU-76M in working order,

D) 4 das - 7 SU-76M in working order,

E) 7 sdas - 4 SU-57 in working order, 2 under repair,

F) 13 „Warszawski” pas - 7 SU-85 in working order, 3 SU-85 under repair, 6 ISU-152 in working order, 1 ISU-152 under repair,

G) 1 „Warszawski” sbrozp - 2 T-70M in working order, 1 T-70M under repair,

Conclusions (irrecoverable losses):

A) 1 das - 0 SU-76M lost,

B) 2 das - 3 SU-76M,

C) 3 das - 2 SU-76M,

D) 4 das - 1 SU-76M,

E) 7 sdas - 1 SU-57,

F) 13 „Warszawski” pas - 4 SU-85, 2 ISU-152,

As for the 1 „Bohaterów Westerplatte” „Warszawska” BPanc (Polish 1st "Heroes of Westerplatte" "Warsaw" Armored Brigade) - it was still subordinated to the Soviet 5th Guards Tank Army in Gdańsk area and since the number of light and medium tanks in 1.AWP was almost equal to 0 (only 2 T-70M light tanks), 6 freshly repaired T-34-76 and T-34-85 with crews consisting of the brigade's tankers who just healed their wounds were attached as an additional tank company to the 4 "Pomorski" pczc (Polish 4th "Pomeranian" Heavy Tank Regiment), while the bulk of the brigade remained where it was. I have to check something on 4 "Pomorski" pczc before typing anything on their losses.

My source of the numbers is "Organizacja i działania bojowe Ludowego Wojska Polskiego w latach 1943-1945", volume two, part two. This book contains original documents, combat reports and so on only.

Best regards
Bartłomiej

Art
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Re: Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

Post by Art » 27 Dec 2019 12:38

BartekPL wrote:
27 Dec 2019 01:50
First thing - there was no such thing as "70 SPB" in the Polish 1st Army, the correct unit is 7 sdas (7 samodzielny dywizjon artylerii samochodowej/samobieżnej - Polish 7th Independent Self-Propelled Artillery Squadron(/in English books the correct equivalent of Polish "dywizjon" is battalion)).
Than I misread a poorly discernible pencil script.
Conclusions (irrecoverable losses):
You should also consider shipment of tanks to repair bases/factories.

BartekPL
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Re: Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

Post by BartekPL » 09 Jan 2020 20:34

Art wrote:
27 Dec 2019 12:38
Than I misread a poorly discernible pencil script.
Not that I can blame you, some of the documents are barely readable, some might not be at all.
Art wrote:
27 Dec 2019 12:38
You should also consider shipment of tanks to repair bases/factories.
These are irrecoverable losses, none of them was to be sent to a repair base, the best what could be done - they might have been "cannibalized" for spare parts.

I did check the 4 pczc and the losses of IS-2s - 5 destroyed/damaged beyond repair, out of 21 which took part in fights (Polish IS-2 units lacked spare parts, pretty badly). None of 6 T-34s from company of Polish 1st "Heroes of Westerplatte" Armored Brigade attached to the Polish 4th Heavy Tank Regiment was damaged beyond repair/destroyed, therefore, Polish 1st Army's armor losses suffered during Berlin operation are laughable, when compared to amount of German armor this army faced, not to mention a "sea" of Panzerfausts and Panzerschrecks.

To sum up, Polish 1st Army lost (as irrecoverable losses) between 16th April and 10th May 1945:

A) 5 IS-2,

B) 2 ISU-152,

C) 4 SU-85,

D) 6 SU-76M,

E) 1 SU-57,


Best regards
Bartłomiej

Jeromewaf
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Battle of Berlin Soviet losses

Post by Jeromewaf » 19 Mar 2020 04:38

Your right Don, polish people have good memories regarding polish & russian historical relations...so its probably been brewing for quite some time I reckon..and as you say, cant blame them...
<small>f.o.r.c.e. gmbh porsche original parts germany</small>

mars
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Re: Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

Post by mars » 13 May 2020 17:10

Art wrote:
20 Jul 2007 15:59
Here is some new data on the Soviet losses in the battle of Berlin (April - May 1945). All figures unless specified are taken from "Berlin of 1945" by A. Isaev:
http://www.knor.ru/cgi-bin/base.pl?a=1191214
First let me remind of the well-known figures from Krivosheev's book.
Personnel losses in the BoB (16th April - 8th May 1945):
Image
Here the term "irrecoverable losses" stands for dead and missing, "sanitary" for wounded in action, sick and injured in accidents. 1 and 2 PA = 1st and 2md Polish Armies.
Detalization of losses of 1st Belorussian Front - the breakdown by armies (11th- 30th April):
Image
1 GTA = 1st Guards Tank Army
3 SA = 3rd Shock Army
8 GA = 8th Guards Army
16 AA = 16th Air Army
Others = Units subordinated directly to the front.
1 PA = 1st Polish Army
The same breakdown for the period 1st - 9th May:
Image
It is intersting to compare the figures with the replacements recieved by the armies of 1 BF during April:
Image
It is clear from these figures that replacements were in most cases completely unsufficient to compensate for the losses.
The breakdown of losses of 1 BF by date and armies (14.04 - 19.04) KIA/WIA:
Image
The figures for 14th April could be incomplete in regard to 8 GA.
Hi, Art, could you provide me a summary of losses of 1st Belorussian Front in the Berlin offensive as you did for 2 Belorussian Front and 1 Ukrainian Front in this same post? The links here are no longer working. I ask this because I am browsing Revised and Expanded 2nd Edition of "Bloody Street', in its introduction it mentioned "The cost to capture the largest urban complex on mainland Europe from a handful of understrength Heer and Waffen-SS divisions, supported by Volkssturm and Hitlerjugend formations armed mainly with Panzerfaust anti-armour rockets, was exceptionally high. The Red Army suffered more casualties among its soldiers than during the six month siege of Stalingrad, and it lost more armoured vehicles than during the Battle of Kursk. " This simply is NOT true, since even i know battle in the Berlin (Apr 23- May 2) was not the same as the Soviet Berlin offensive (Apr 16 - May 8), is this a mistake made by the author or by his publisher?

So Mr art, you are an expert of the Soviet army in WWII, so could you provide me a summary of the osses of 1st Belorussian Front in the Apr and May of 1945, and if you can also provide me which units of 1st Belorussian and 1st Ukrainian Fronts that actually fought in the city of Berlin, and the losses they suffered, I will be great appreciate, thank you in advance

Art
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Re: Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

Post by Art » 14 May 2020 10:23

From appendices to the war diary of the 1 Belorussian Front (TsAMO RF f.233, op. 2356, d.739, ll.506-508)

Personnel losses 1-10 April 45
1BF losses 1-10Apr45.jpg
Total 1277 killed, 3364 wounded, 35 missing, 4268 others (non-battle, sick etc), total 8944 men
Also 1 Polish Army - 10 killed, 43 wounded, 1 missing, 228 others, total 282 men

Personnel losses 11-30 April 45
1BF losses 10-30Apr45.jpg
Total 27649 killed, 108611 wounded, 1388 missing, 7560 others, total 155 809 men
Also 1 Polish Army - 1656 killed, 5793 wounded, 516 missing, 616 others, total 7781

Personnel losses 1-10 May 45
1BF losses 1-10May45.jpg
Total 6268 killed, 20783 wounded, 340 missing, 3198 others, total 30 479
Also 1 Polish Army - 358 killed, 1217 wounded, 195 others, total 1870

Numbers in the table don't add up in some places IIRC. I guess, those tables were first published by Isayev (2007). According to official publication ("Soviet casualties..." by G. Krivosheev) losses of the 1 Belorussian Front in the Berlin operation (16 April - 8 May 1945) were 179 490 men (37610 irrevocable, 141 880 medical) which is in good accord with war diary of the 1 BF.

Battle losses of the five armies which were directly involved in Berlin (1 and 2 Guards Tank Armies, 3 and 5 Shock Armies, 8 Guards Army) were about 87 000 from 10.4 to 10.5. Without doubt mot more than 50% of them occurred in Berlin proper. Very loosely the number can be estimated as less than 40 000. There were also elements of other armies, forces of the 1 Ukrainian Fronts, Poles. Again a very rough estimate is 50-60 000 total battle losses. There is a great deal of uncertainty here, how you define the city of Berlin. Where is the border exactly, would Potsdam, Spandau, Wannsee island be included (personally I think that logically they should) etc.
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mars
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Re: Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

Post by mars » 14 May 2020 13:29

Thank you, Art

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Re: Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

Post by mars » 14 May 2020 13:41

And losing about 50 - 60 thousands men inside Berlin in merely 3 weeks, it was a tough fight even without these extra exaggeration

Art
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Re: Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

Post by Art » 14 May 2020 14:01

Why three weeks? I count 10-11 days at most (22 April - 2 May). In general, the largest daily losses of the 1st BF were suffered on 16 April (Oder Front). Fighting in Berlin, while undoubtedly bitter and bloody, didn't reach that level.

mars
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Re: Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

Post by mars » 14 May 2020 16:44

Art wrote:
14 May 2020 14:01
Why three weeks? I count 10-11 days at most (22 April - 2 May). In general, the largest daily losses of the 1st BF were suffered on 16 April (Oder Front). Fighting in Berlin, while undoubtedly bitter and bloody, didn't reach that level.
I counted the fighting in Berlin between Apr 23- May 10, though most of the battle should be end on May 2, I understand majority of the Soviet losses in the Berlin offensive occurred outside of Berlin city limit, but considering the limited number of German units actually inside the Berlin and the short time period, Soviet losses of around 60 thousands in the battle for the Berlin city were extremely high

Art
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Re: Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

Post by Art » 15 May 2020 18:51

mars wrote:
14 May 2020 16:44
considering the limited number of German units actually inside the Berlin
You see, even in May 2020 I cannot recall a single source which provides a comprehensive list of German units fighting in Berlin in suburbs not to speak of their strength and status. I find Hamilton's idea of the garrison (tiny remains of several divisions plus a mass of poorly armed Volkssturm) a little stretched.

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Yuri
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Re: Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

Post by Yuri » 15 May 2020 20:20

Battle for Berlin by Weidling General der Artillery
23-04-45
45-04-23_BattleOfBerlin.jpg
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Yuri
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Re: Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

Post by Yuri » 15 May 2020 20:24

Battle for Berlin by Weidling General der Artillery
28-04-45
45-04-28_BattleOfBerlin.jpg
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Yuri
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Re: Battle of Berlin: Soviet losses.

Post by Yuri » 15 May 2020 20:26

Battle for Berlin by Weidling General der Artillery
01-05-45
45-05-01_BattleOfBerlin.jpg
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