East Prussia 1945

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Redneck
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East Prussia 1945

Post by Redneck » 24 Jul 2007 22:12

Hi, I looking for the information about operations of German army in East Prussia (especially Samland area), such as as archival records, battle maps , aerophotoshooting of positions. Can anybody provide such information or sources where it can be received/bought?
Thank you!

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 25 Jul 2007 02:41

This is really a fascinating area of research. Have a look at this thread:

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... st+prussia

Regards

tigersqn
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Post by tigersqn » 25 Jul 2007 06:40

Here is a first-hand account.
See paras 22-24

http://www.wwiilectureinstitute.com/stories/beck.htm

Jan-Hendrik
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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 25 Jul 2007 07:06

Thank you for this link :D

Jan-Hendrik

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Redneck
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Post by Redneck » 25 Jul 2007 22:16

Thanks a lot, guys! Very, very useful links!
More? :D

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Fallschirmjäger
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That site

Post by Fallschirmjäger » 04 Aug 2007 03:57

tigersqn wrote:Here is a first-hand account.
See paras 22-24

http://www.wwiilectureinstitute.com/stories/beck.htm
On this site how do i get those pages to read or i cant?,like that The Heroes of Monte Cassino and Sziroka... has to be about fallschirmjäger then. :?

kon
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Post by kon » 07 Aug 2007 05:48

Erich Koch 24 march 1945 has told to Berlin that bolsheviks bear in East Prussia improbable losses. According to Kokh one million killed

Eugene (J. Baker)
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Post by Eugene (J. Baker) » 08 Aug 2007 10:47

kon wrote:Erich Koch 24 march 1945 has told to Berlin that bolsheviks bear in East Prussia improbable losses. According to Kokh one million killed
He also told to Hitler that Koenigsberg will never fall.

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ToKu
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Post by ToKu » 08 Aug 2007 11:12

Hey, if we are at Koch's and the fall of Eastern Prussia.

Wasn't he the guy that informed Hitler: "Hossbach's Army is abadoning Eastern Prussia", told words that stopped Hossbach's operation against Rokossovsky's Front right wing?

Sometime ago I wrote shorte article in some other forum. It is not very well sourced, those was rather free thinking on the subject. I don't claim it to be the only enlighted true version of events. Any corrections are welcomed.





Guderian’s mistake?

In his book “Erinnerung eines Soldaten” (I’m working on Polish 2003 Bellona edition, p. 442 - 444 Guderian is making some real major mistakes when he is writing about fights in Eastern Prussia.

First is minor in my opinion, Guderian is writing that Russians first crossed into German soil on 20th of January in area east of Inowrocław. It is agreed (at least as far as I found out) that Russians crossed southern border of East Prussia on 19th of January (and moreover, east of Inowrocław is not German soil).

Second and third are much more important and they are connected with each other. Guderian is writing that Germans gave up Lotzen Fortress (Boyen Fortress) on 24th of January (they leaved it on night 26/27 January as a matter of fact). In his opinion this was a warning bell for Hitler, who as a consequence put more attention to that region and found out that Hossabach is trying to escape from Eastern Prussia. It was a reason for dismissal of Hossbasch and Reinhardt. It happened on 26th of January due to Guderian (late evening of 29th of January as I believe).

Those mistakes may be just mistakes, caused by time that is stealing our memories, but I think Guderian is rather exact in his book and he is treated as a reliable source. As a matter of facts this is the most probable cause.

Those false data might have been caused by chaos in German lines and commands in January 1945. Mistake with giving up the fortress might have been a result of misreading report of losing Lotzen, released on 24th of January, but town didn’t meant the fortress (located just of western Lotzen’s outskirts, on west bank of channel). But mistake with date of Hossbach’s dismissal as a commander of 4th Army is such an important news, that it is almost impossible not to know exact date of order issued by Hitler for OKH’s Chief of Staff (I don’t know if the rank is translated ok, in Polish it is <<Szef Sztabu Generalnego Wojsk Lądowych>>).

Other option is my weird, risky and based mainly on guessing theory:

Guderian in his book is often blaming other commanders of being too submissive for Hitler or of being not enough cautious with him. Cautious – by revealing their opinions and judgments on which Hitler’s was able to build surrealistic plans and orders. I think that Guderian might have told something like: “Fortress is important strongpoint it was a mistake to leave it” or some similar stuff. By reading his words on p. 442 – 444, you are getting the feeling that he thought this was a mistake indeed. Hitler might have used this words to build a judgment that: “All who give up land are cowards”, and from that move swiftly to a conclusion: “this treason shall not be repeated! We will hold in Eastern Prussia! Tell the troops to stop counteroffensive!” and “all generals are traitors and cowards! Dismiss Reinhardt and Hossbach!”. Guderian didn’t meant that of course, but Hitler’s decision was a Hitler’s decision and all German effort (and losses) made during Hossbach's counterattack was wasted. Later, Guderian probably realized that this counteroffensive was the only chance for saving an army, that’s why he is practically not mentioning it in his book. He is also criticizing Hossbach’s orders as “strange”, and blaming him for giving Hitler another reason to distrust his commanders. Guderian often posed himself in his book as the only (or one of very few) reasonable guy in German highest command, especially as the one who was able to force his point of view to Hitler. Situation like this in my hypothesis could have done a lot of damage to this image, and that’s why Guderian tried to draught it in sea of misunderstandings, false data and “mistakes”.*




*well, he achieved that in my opinion, in Poland it is pretty hard to come upon correct date of Hossbasch’s dismissal, it seem like almost everybody are rewriting after Guderian. It seem that Hossbach never wrote his book (“Schlecht in Osternprussia, Zeit 19 Juni – 30 Juni 1945, published in Berlin in 50’s – I might have slightly change the title, as I don’t know German and can’t find this book in Google). Another thing that this part of his book was in favor during years of communism. Guderian was reliable, and he almost admitted, that Russians conquered East Prussia without any serious problems. So as a consequence we ’ve got 24th of January as a date for Hossbachs dismissal in almost every book.
Last edited by ToKu on 10 Aug 2007 06:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Redneck
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Post by Redneck » 08 Aug 2007 23:29

Otto von Lasch "So fiel Konigsberg: Kampf und Untergang von Ostpreussens Hauptstadt" -interesting to read :wink:
especially about Koch's "innovations" in defence

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Post by kon » 09 Aug 2007 10:50

Hitler's mistakes?
By January, 12th in a strip 3 Ukrainian fronts have been concentrated 8 tank divisions. By January, 16th-13 tank divisions! On Vistula and East Prussia 7 tank divisions.20 January despite of protests Guderian, Hitler has thrown the tank case from East Prussia in area of Lodz. This case in fights did not participate in January almost, has actually been deduced by Hitler in a reserve. It turns out that from 20 tank divisions on a direction of the main impact of Red Army was 5.
25 %

From post about Lauban
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 83&start=0
The battle strengthened the belief of German officers that an enemy attack in an area only lightly defended by infantry can only be repelled by the rapid deployment of armoured fighting units (tanks, assault guns, mortars, panzergrenadiers, pioneers)

kon
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Post by kon » 09 Aug 2007 12:36

on 12 january 1945(with rear parts)

3 Ukranian front
400 thousand troops 400 tanks

1,2,3 Belorussian 1 Ukranian fronts
4 millions troops 11000 tanks

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Re: East Prussia 1945

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 04 Jan 2020 11:51

Strength of ArmeeAbt. 'Samland' per 4.3.45

Jan-Hendrik

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