Warsaw Uprising

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
Piotr Kapuscinski
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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 06 Aug 2007 18:41

This is very good site about Warsaw Uprising:

http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/

According to this site, German troops and men working in different kinds of German millitary service - including Polizei, Gestapo, SS, different auxillary organizations, etc. - killed by Polish partizans (from Home Army and other organizations) in Warsaw before Uprising, from November 1943 to May 1944:

- November 1943 - 78 killed and 72 heavilly wounded German troops
- October 1943 - 15 killed and 67 heavilly wounded German troops
- December 1943 - 50 killed German troops
- January 1944 - 5 killed German troops
- February 1944 - 20 killed German troops
- March 1944 - 40 killed German troops
- April and May 1944 - 496 killed German troops and men working in German millitary service, 244 heavilly wounded men

These figures includes many German officers and even some generals.

Figures from February to May according to Ludwig Fischer's, gubernator of Warsaw, report about casualties from first half of 1944.

Figures from November to January according to SS-Brigadeführer und- Generalmajor der Polizei Franz Kutscher - he was Polizei and SS commander in Warsaw from 25 IX 1943 to 1 II 1944 - on 1 II 1944 he was killed by Polish Home Army soldiers from "Parasol" Battalion in "Kutscher Special Combat Operation".

One of special operations executive Polish Home Army units - Company AGAT (Anti - Gestapo) - during its one year activity - from July 1943 to end of June 1944:

- killed 29 German troops
- wounded 44 German troops

And at the same time Company AGAT lost:

- 8 KIA
- 10 died of wounds
- 16 wounded (including 7 heavilly wounded)

All figures above are from this excellent site: http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/

Company AGAT was later the first unit of new-formed battalion "Parasol" - one of the most famous units of Warsaw Uprising (as famous as battalion "Zośka") - exact losses of both battalions ("Parasol" and "Zośka") in Warsaw Uprising are also give on that site, as well as names and surnames of all soldiers which were killed from these battalions

In the summer of 1943, Hedquarters of Home Army ordered to their special operations executive units to eliminate the most cruel SS guardians of Pawiak prison and other prisons in Warsaw. They killed:

SS members:

SS-Oberscharführer Franz Bürkl
SS-Sturmmann Ernst Weffels
SS-Scharführer Engelberth Frühwirth
SS-Oberscharführer Otto Zander (he was not killed because he left Warsaw on his own before)
SS-Sturmscharführer G. Hiersemann
SS-Scharführer Abusch Müller
SS-Sturmmann Joseph Krumschmidt
SS-Sturmmann Kurt Naporra

Gestapo members:

SS-Hauptscharführer August Kretschmann
SS-Scharführer Stephan Klein
SS-Obersturmführer Joseph Lechner
SS-Rottenführer Alfred Milke

Polish collaborators in German service:

Anton Rozmus - Gęsiówka prison guardian - shot on 6.VIII.1943 by "Podkowa" unit
Józef Sandomierski - Gęsiówka prison guardian - shot on the same day by the same unit
Jadwiga Podhorodecka, shot on 29.I.1944 by counter-intelligence AK (Home Army) unit
Olga Narewska, shot on 28.IV.1944 by "Podkowa" unit - commander = cpt. "Żmudzin"
Krysta Golos - someone told her that she is going to be killed by AK, and she asked for transfer from Warsaw
Sabina Bykowska, shot on 5.X.1943 by group from "Anatol" unit

Many of them were killed by soldiers from Company AGAT

Regards

mars
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Post by mars » 06 Aug 2007 19:27

hi, I do not try to deny the hard fighting of Home Army and brutality of Germans, just mentioned the fact that the German army units fought Gen Berlin's army, even those fought occured in Warsaw city, was not under command of Zelewski, according to Zelewski, those units were under his command:
34th SS-Police Rifle Regiment and 1st SS Flak Detachement
La,[fgri[[e Rpjr"
10th Mixed Wehrmacht Police Battalion
906th Artillery Battalion
944th Security Battalion
I/17ths SS-Police Regiment
246th Landesschutzen Battlion
Kampfgruppe Reinefarth:
SS-Brigade Dirlewanger(with 2 battalions of easterner Muslims)
501st SS-Jager Regiment
Police Regiment Schmidt
Police Battalion Burghardt
Police Remgent Reck
Sturm-Pionier Regiment Herzog
Police Battalion Sarnow
3rd Cossack Regiment
2nd Azerbaijan Battalion
Police Flamethrower Battalion
302nd Panzer Detachment(with 218th Assault Panzer Company)
2nd Sturmgeschutz Detachment
1000th Assault Mortar Company
2nd Battery Heavy Artillery
201st Heavy Fortifications Mortar Battery
695ths Railway Battery
5th Armored Train
Supporting organization:
25th Panzer Division; Kampfgrupe Bernhard, and 1st Luftwaffe Division

By the way, the fact that those German units fought Gen Berlins' army did not commanded by Zelewski would make German losses in the Warsaw uprising even higher than those Zelewski admitted, because he would not know German losses suffered agains Gen Berlin's troops

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michalst
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Post by michalst » 06 Aug 2007 19:30

2 x Verbrennungskommando (these units were burning murderred civilians corpses)
Where did you get this from?
Pz.Kpfw. V "Panther" Ausf. G Sd.Kfz. 171
Pz.Kpfw. V "Panther" - "Pudel" ("Poodle")
Pz.Kpfw. V "Panther" - "Zośka"
Pz.Kpfw. VI "Tiger" (it was damaged very quickly after captured - by young Polish scout who was ordered to guard it... and started to play it...)
i've heard about two "Panthers" both captured in Wola district, where was the third one caputered? And this "Tiger"?

What are your sources?

Piotr Kapuscinski
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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 06 Aug 2007 19:46

This is really excellent stuff - source - http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/ !

Results of Polish Home Army (AK) and ZWZ (Military Fighting Association) sabotage operations in Warsaw district, between 1. January 1941 and 30. June 1944:

damaged locomotives - 6.930
locomotives that were detained in repair for long time - 803
transports that were derailed - 732
transports that were set on fire - 443
damaged wagons 19.058
electrical networks interrupted on Warsaw junction - 638
damaged and destroyed millitary cars - 526
railway bridges detonated - 38
aircraft damaged - 28
tankers with petrol destroyed - 1.167
tons of petrol destroyed except petrol which was in destroyed tankers - 4.674
oil rigs destroyed - 3
wagons with wooden wool (wełna drzewna) burned - 150
millitary magazines with ammunition and equipment burned - 122
millitary magazines with food burned - 8
fabrics in which production was temporary immobilized 7
defective elements of aircraft engines made - 4.710
defective gun barrels made - 203
defective artillery bullets made - 92.000
defective aircraft radio stations made - 107
defective condensers for electrical industry made - 570.000
defective machine tools made - 1.700
important machines in fabrics damaged - 2.872
different sabotage operations done - 25.145
assasinations on Germans made - 5.733

More than 1,000 Ordnungspolizei members and more than 500 German military administration workers were killed only during normal service (casualties suffered by German Ordnungspolizei during AK and ZWZ special operations are not included here - only men killed during their service by single partizans or small group of partizans)

Piotr Kapuscinski
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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 06 Aug 2007 20:31

Zelewski, those units were under his command:
34th SS-Police Rifle Regiment and 1st SS Flak Detachement
La,[fgri[[e Rpjr"
10th Mixed Wehrmacht Police Battalion
906th Artillery Battalion
944th Security Battalion
I/17ths SS-Police Regiment
246th Landesschutzen Battlion
Kampfgruppe Reinefarth:
SS-Brigade Dirlewanger(with 2 battalions of easterner Muslims)
501st SS-Jager Regiment
Police Regiment Schmidt
Police Battalion Burghardt
Police Remgent Reck
Sturm-Pionier Regiment Herzog
Police Battalion Sarnow
3rd Cossack Regiment
2nd Azerbaijan Battalion
Police Flamethrower Battalion
302nd Panzer Detachment(with 218th Assault Panzer Company)
2nd Sturmgeschutz Detachment
1000th Assault Mortar Company
2nd Battery Heavy Artillery
201st Heavy Fortifications Mortar Battery
695ths Railway Battery
5th Armored Train
Supporting organization:
25th Panzer Division; Kampfgrupe Bernhard, and 1st Luftwaffe Division
Excellent stuff! Maybe You know an estimate number of German troops who served in those units, then we will be able to establish what percent of all German forces in Warsaw they were.

For example - i cant see IV. SS-Pz.-Korps there and it fought in the Rising.

Regards!
i've heard about two "Panthers" both captured in Wola district, where was the third one caputered? And this "Tiger"?

What are your sources?
Project of report from KG AK (Home Army headquarters) to NW PSZ (commander of Polish forces on the West) from 3rd August 1944 (WIH sygn. III/40/39 page16) says that 1 "Panther" was captured and immediatly used against Germans

This Tiger could be also Panzer IV - there are many controversions about this - it was damaged soon after it was captured so it probably wasnt used

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michalst
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Post by michalst » 06 Aug 2007 20:55

This Tiger could be also Panzer IV - there are many controversions about this - it was damaged soon after it was captured so it probably wasn't used
Do you know where it was captured, when and by who?

Zelewski is wrong about some of those unit.
1st Luftwaffe Division

Do you mean 1st Luftwaffe Field Division? If yes, it didn't participate in the uprising.
Police Regiment Schmidt
The official name i actually 608. Sicherungs-Regiment commanded by oberst Schmidt
SS-Brigade Dirlewanger(with 2 battalions of easterner Muslims)
2nd Azerbaijan Battalion
Actually besides Dirlewanger; Aserbeidschanisches Feld Bataillon I./111,2 bataillon from "Bergmann" regiment and Ostmuselmanisches SS Regiment participated which are 4 ostlegion battalions and not 3 as mentiond be Zelewski.

And some others too..

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Post by kon » 07 Aug 2007 17:12

Poles have overestimated number of victims of revolt with 20 up to 200 thousand. The total of victims during war of Poles did not exceed 300 thousand. Poles have told 3 million....

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Post by Musashi » 07 Aug 2007 17:22

kon wrote:Poles have overestimated number of victims of revolt with 20 up to 200 thousand. The total of victims during war of Poles did not exceed 300 thousand. Poles have told 3 million....
Man, what are you talking about? 8O What is a source of your claims?

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Post by kon » 07 Aug 2007 17:45

http://world.ng.ru/dipcorpus/2000-09-28/5_polsha.html

google translation

Perhaps Stalin to some extent and has a moral responsibility for the deaths of thousands of Germans Warsaw in suppressing the uprising in 1944 (this is about a few thousand or a few tens of thousands; Allegations of death in suppressing the uprising of 200-300 thousand Warsaw-preposterous). But let us not forget that the USSR, Poland has received more than 100 thousand square. km of land, which can hardly be described as a "Polish tradition", and its area has exceeded 312 thousand square. km. And in the event of a victory of Hitler area of Poland is unlikely to exceed the 170-180 thousand square. km (yes, and these values could be made if the Germans included in the post-war Poland, Bialystok region, since the area even after the government-General accession to the East Galicia failed to reach 150 thousand square meters. km). And at sixty thousand square. km Poles would be confronted with the Ukrainians and the Nazis in their "popular" literature cited populated mainly Ukrainians eastern Galicia to the "living space" in Ukrainian, not the Polish people. Thanks to the USSR land per inhabitant postwar Poland accounted for about 1.5 times higher than before the war, there is a western provinces. All this, while the contribution of the defeat of the Germans in Poland was not too great. It is unlikely that the number of Poles-Poland's pre-war population, died in the fight against Germany (and whose families after the war lived in PNR), over 70-75 thousand The official Polish figures, the troops from Poland and other countries antigermanskoy coalition and guerrilla groups killed 123 thousand residents of Poland. But first, the corresponding figures are high (if, as did Polish propagandists, not included in the 123 thousand Ukrainians, Belarussians and Lithuanians prewar Polish citizens killed in the ranks of RKKA and not prosovetskih Polish part of the Eastern Front). Perhaps they were inflated by a total of 30-40 thousand. The least believable are allegations of deaths as a result of the German-Polish war in 1939 66 thousand Polish troops; the death of the Polish guerrilla war (antigermanskoy) 20 thousand armed men; yes estimate of the number of deaths and the suppression of the Warsaw uprising in 1944 - 13 thousand - rather related to the total number of deaths, rather than the number of dead gunmen. Secondly, among the dead were apparently a lot of people whose families after the Second World War or left the territory, which went down in the Soviet Union were either expelled or emigrated from postwar Poland; In some cases, the victims have had very little relevance as a pre-war, and to post-war Poland. For example, among those killed in the Polish "of the East Front were many citizens of the USSR to" Polish "names. At the same time serving in the German Army and Polish-German police forces were killed, apparently a few tens of thousands of Poles prewar Poland; This is probably comparable to the number of Poles of pre-war Poland, died in antigermanskoy coalition forces. This is not a question label ( "collaborators", etc.), it's just political arithmetic. A claim that a large territory to Poland as compensation for the excruciating deaths of more than 3 million Poles-Poland's pre-war population - are invalid, because the figure 3 million totally absurd, and in 1945 the need for this land for Poland argued just that the old territory is too small for many Polish people

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Post by Musashi » 07 Aug 2007 18:06

I am not going to dignify this "source" and "translation" with a comment :roll:

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Post by Rends » 07 Aug 2007 18:16

just a question:
why did the Warsaw people thought that Red Army will help them during the uprising?
why did they trust them?

Hey they should have rememberd 1939 to keep in mind what they have to expect from the USSR.

Just wonder...

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Post by kon » 07 Aug 2007 19:07

3 million Poles was lost within war. Where? In Krakow, Lodz, Warsaw? I read German sources on the Warsaw uprising and to all is written, that before destroying Warsaw Germans have deduced the population from city. Figure 200 of thousand victims is absurd.

Rends,in August 1944 near Warsaw 2 tank army has been crushed. It has lost 500 tanks. Rokossovski was the Pole, was born in Warsaw and wished to help insurgents. But 4 German tank divisions successfully beat off the Soviet attacks

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Post by michalst » 07 Aug 2007 19:19

kon: The official number of dead polish citizens is 6 million, not 3 as stated in your text. If 3 million is an "absurd" figure, what is 6 million by your opinion (or by your "source")? Next time you think of answering I suggest you do some research first!

Rends: The Uprising was in a way against Russians..

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Post by kon » 07 Aug 2007 19:25

"3 millions jews" and 3 million poles
If the Soviet armies have entered into Warsaw in august half risen would be shot, the others are banished to Siberia

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Post by mars » 07 Aug 2007 19:33

Rends wrote:just a question:
why did the Warsaw people thought that Red Army will help them during the uprising?
why did they trust them?

Hey they should have rememberd 1939 to keep in mind what they have to expect from the USSR.

Just wonder...
they were against the same enemy at that time, and according to basic Military logic, USSR should help them , Warsaw was an important military target, and it would be easier for Soviet to take this city if there were a force attacked Germans from inside when Red army attacked them from outside, and after captured the Warsaw, it would be very easy for Soviet to dealt with Polish fighters. By the way it was not correct to say Red army sat "idle" when Polish home army were butched inside city, when reached Warsaw, Red army were in an exhuast state after months of hard fighting, and Germans committed majority of their forces against Red Army outside the city, there were desperately fighting around Praga between July and Septmember

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