Warsaw Uprising

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
kon
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Post by kon » 08 Aug 2007 11:06

3 Belorussian front in October 1944 has been crushed in East Prussia. Losses of infantry of 80 thousand and about 1000 burned down tanks :(
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 66&start=0
ToKu from Olshtyn has told

Losses of both sides were heavy, but Russians bigger, as always. It is estimated they lost some 30 – 40 % of their troops and some 80 % tanks. 31st Russian Army suffered heaviest losses

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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 08 Aug 2007 11:37

Kon,
you should know a vast majority of Soviet supplies dropped even from a low altitude was smashing on the ground and was useless after that.
You mean allied supplies - because according to my sources Soviets didnt supplied Warsaw from the air

3 Belorussian front in October 1944 has been crushed in East Prussia. Losses of infantry of 80 thousand and about 1000 burned down tanks
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 66&start=0

And? Why did u put here this off topic? We were talking about Bellarusian Front losses in August
Losses of both sides were heavy, but Russians bigger, as always. It is estimated they lost some 30 – 40 % of their troops and some 80 % tanks. 31st Russian Army suffered heaviest losses

As always?! In operation between Vistula and Oder, from 12. January 1945 to 7. February 1945 Russians lost 15,000 KIA and 60,000 WIA and Germans lost 400,000 KIA and WIA and 45 crushed divisions - this figures are from Christopher Duffy's book "Red Storm on the Reich"
Last edited by Piotr Kapuscinski on 08 Aug 2007 12:27, edited 2 times in total.

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michalst
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Post by michalst » 08 Aug 2007 12:04

You mean allied supplies - because according to my sources Soviets didnt supplied Warsaw from the air
Soviets supplied Warsaw with airdrops from about middle/first week of september. Some of the airdrops where intended for Kedyw forces in Czerniakow area, but they where droppet (as written over) without parachutes and from low level.

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Post by Marcin » 08 Aug 2007 18:42

Once I read the memories of former soldiers "Zośka" batallion. The book first time was published in 1956 so obviously they couldn`t have written all truth about Uprising. One of them ( nickname "Nita") recalled how he swum across the Wisła river at the end of the Uprising. The memory ended when he met Soviet` s soldiers. Recently I read the same memory but issued in 2004. He was about to be imprisoned by NKWD while he was cured in hospital but ordinary and decent soviet soldiers helped him to escape....But fate of others soldiers was as awful as the fate of " Anoda". During the Uprising he was badly wounded ( lost his arm) . After the war he started to study architecture. Then he was arrested by UB ( communist secret police in Poland) and murdered. They thrown him out of window.

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Musashi
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Post by Musashi » 08 Aug 2007 19:21

michalst wrote:
You mean allied supplies - because according to my sources Soviets didnt supplied Warsaw from the air
Soviets supplied Warsaw with airdrops from about middle/first week of september. Some of the airdrops where intended for Kedyw forces in Czerniakow area, but they where droppet (as written over) without parachutes and from low level.
Also according to my sources the Soviets DID supply the insurgents from the air, however most of the airdrops were destroyed or heavily damaged while hitting the ground.
Domen, you are the first Pole I've noticed, who claim, the Soviets did not supply the insurgents from the air.

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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 09 Aug 2007 12:04

Warsaw uprising in august 1944 was revolt of criminal elements
Underground Poland is for you a criminal element? Home Army soldiers are for you criminalists? You know Polish a bit? If yes, try to read some Polish sources about Uprising and Poland in WW2 itself - not only your communistic propaganda which says that "only" 300,000 Poles died during WW2 and that before the war Poland wasn't "the poor country, in many houses there were earthen floors(the ground under legs)" as you said in other topic.

This man looks like a criminalist to you?:

http://wladyslawbartoszewski.blox.pl/html

During WW1 Poland was one of the most destroyed and most plundered countries - many Poles were killed in WW1, because they fought in all armies - Russian, German, Austro-Hungary, French - there was a front line here in Poland. From 1918 to 1921, Poles managed to liberate themselfs (for example victorious Greater Poland Uprising and Silesia Uprisings which were all rised against Germans) and beat Soviet Armies which attacked Poland. From 1921 to 1939 they managed to build strong state with one of the biggest and strongest armies in Europe, and Poland was maybe not rich (especcialy eastern part of Poland - near Soviet Union border) but was not so poor as you said. During WW2 and after WW2 (during Soviets "liberation") Poland was the most plundered country of Europe.

During post-war Soviet "occupation" Poland and DDR were being heavilly exploited by USSR.

According to Soviets soldiers - you said - "The Soviet veterans recollected how much them Germany has amazed with riches." - Soviets were amazed with riches also in Poland - comparising to people of Soviet Union Polish people were rich, even after plundering by Germans from 1939 to 1944...

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Post by kon » 09 Aug 2007 12:26

Poland in 1918-1945 has increased due to Germany twice. Poles also have stolen the Belarus city of Bialystok...

Memoirs of the Soviet veteran on Poland
http://his.1september.ru/articlef.php?ID=200100804
Ïîëüøà. 2-îé Áåëîðóññêèé ôðîíò. Íà÷àëî ôåâðàëÿ 1945 ã.

Ïðîäâèãàåìñÿ ïî òåððèòîðèè Ïîëüøè ê ãðàíèöå ñ Ãåðìàíèåé. Íàøè ñîñåäè — ïîëüñêèå ïîäðàçäåëåíèÿ, ñôîðìèðîâàííûå â Ñîâåòñêîì Ñîþçå. Îíè âîþþò â îñíîâíîì ñ ïîëüñêèìè îòðÿäàìè, êîòîðûå áûëè íà ñòîðîíå íåìöåâ èëè äàæå íåéòðàëüíû.  ýòî ñìóòíîå âðåìÿ â Ïîëüøå òðè îñíîâíûå ñèëû: çà íåìöåâ, çà Ñîâåòñêèé Ñîþç, ïðîòèâ íåìöåâ è Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà. À íàçûâàëèñü: «Àðìèÿ Êðàéîâà», «Àðìèÿ Íàðîäîâà» è «Àðìèÿ Ëþäîâà» — êàæåòñÿ, òàê. Âîò êàêàÿ àðìèÿ çà ÷òî âîåâàëà, — è â òå âðåìåíà òðóäíî áûëî ïîíÿòü, à ñåé÷àñ óæå çàáûëîñü îêîí÷àòåëüíî.
 ïîëüñêèõ ïîäðàçäåëåíèÿõ áîëüøèå ïîòåðè. Ïîýòîìó ïîïîëíÿþòñÿ îíè ðóññêèìè ñîëäàòàìè, êîòîðûõ îäåâàþò â ïîëüñêóþ ôîðìó: íà ãîëîâå — êîíôåäåðàòêè, à ïîíèìàòü ïîëüñêèå êîìàíäû ìîæíî îáó÷èòüñÿ âìèã... Êîìèññàðû â ýòèõ áàòàëüîíàõ (çàìåñòèòåëè êîìáàòîâ ïî ïîëèòè÷åñêîé ÷àñòè) — ñïëîøü êîìàíäèðû Êðàñíîé àðìèè.
Ïåðåäâèãàëèñü ïî äîðîãàì Ïîëüøè íà ðåêâèçèðîâàííîì òðàíñïîðòå. Åõàëè íà òåëåãàõ, â êîëÿñêàõ, çàïðÿæåííûõ òðîéêàìè ðûñàêîâ, íà âåëîñèïåäàõ è äàæå íà ïðèöåïå ïàðîâîãî ëîêîìîáèëÿ. Ýòî áûëî óäèâèòåëüíî.
Ïîëüñêèå äåðåâíè òîãî âðåìåíè î÷åíü áåäíû, íî íàðîä ïðåäïðèèì÷èâûé. Äàæå î÷åíü áåäíûé ëþä íîðîâèë îòêðûòü ñâîþ ëàâ÷îíêó èëè äàæå îðãàíèçîâàòü êàêîå-ëèáî «ïðåäïðèÿòèå».
Íà÷àëè ïîëó÷àòü ïîëüñêèå çëîòû, íî èõ íèãäå è íèêîãäà íåëüçÿ áûëî èñïîëüçîâàòü äëÿ ïîêóïîê, — ïðîñòî íèêòî èõ íå áðàë. Òå, êòî íå óñïåë ïðîèãðàòü ýòè çëîòû â êàðòû è íå âûáðîñèë, ïðè äåìîáèëèçàöèè ìîãëè îáìåíÿòü èõ íà ñîâåòñêèå ðóáëè. Ïðàâäà, â òî âðåìÿ îá ýòîì íèêòî íå çíàë.
Ñòàëè âûõîäèòü ïîëüñêèå ãàçåòêè.  îäíîé èç íèõ ÿ ñàì ÷èòàë, ÷òî êîìàíäóþùèé Ðîêîññîâñêèé — ïîëÿê ïî íàöèîíàëüíîñòè, ñàìûé ìîëîäîé ìàðøàë Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà, áîëüøå âñåãî íà ñâåòå ëþáèò ëîøàäåé è æåíùèí.
Òåì âðåìåíåì ïîäîøëè ê ãðàíèöå ñ Ãåðìàíèåé. Ñòàëè íà ðàçáèòîé ïðîñåëî÷íîé äîðîãå, ïî ñòîðîíàì êîòîðîé âèäíû ïîêîñèâøèåñÿ õèáàðêè, êðûòûå ñîëîìîé. Âèäåí ïîãðàíè÷íûé ñòîëá, çà êîòîðûì — Ãåðìàíèÿ. À òàì øèðîêîå àñôàëüòèðîâàííîå øîññå, êèðïè÷íûå äîìà, ôðóêòîâûå ñàäû.
Ðàçèòåëüíî: íèùàÿ Ïîëüøà è áîãàòàÿ Ãåðìàíèÿ

google translation

Poland. 2nd Belorussian front. Beginning in February 1945

Moving through Poland to the German border. Our neighbours - Polish unit, formed in the Soviet Union. They fought mainly with Polish troops who were on the side of the Germans, or even neutral. In a time of uncertainty in Poland three major forces : the Germans, the Soviet Union, against the Germans and the Soviet Union. A reference : "Armia Krajowa", "army" and "Narodova Army Lyudova" I think so. Here's what the army that fought for, and at times it was difficult to understand, but now forgotten completely. In Polish units inflicted great losses. So they replenished by Russian soldiers who were clothed in the Polish form : head-konfederatki and understand the Polish team can learn challenge ... Commissioners in these battalions (vice-combatants on the political part) completely Red Army commanders. Move on roads Poland requisitioned to transport. Journey to the horse, in a wheelchair, ride three races, bicycle and even a trailer steam portable engine. This was surprising. Polish village at the time very poor but enterprising people. Even very poor people norovil open its Eccles, or even organize a "business". Polish złoty get started, but they never can be used for shopping, they are not just taking. Those who do not have time to lose these złoty cards and threw in the demobilization can exchange them for Soviet rubles. True, but this, no one knew. Become more Polish handicraftsmen. In one of them I did read that the commander-Rokossovsky Pole by nationality, the youngest Marshal of the Soviet Union, most of the world loves horses and women. Meanwhile, come to the border with Germany. Have been broken on a local road, the sides of which are visible pokosivshiesya chapel, covered straw. Visible border pillar, which for Germany. And a paved road, brick houses, orchards. Stark : a poor Poland and Germany rich

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Post by David Thompson » 09 Aug 2007 17:53

A post from kon containing an ethnic insult was deleted by this moderator -- DT.

kon -- We don't permit ethnic, religious or national insults here. Avoid them, along with off-topic and unsourced nationalistic agitprop like:
Poles also have stolen the Belarus city of Bialystok
Consider this post your warning.

Marcin
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Post by Marcin » 09 Aug 2007 18:35

You know English very well... So why don`t you read some books issued on the West about Poland and polish forces? I mean the publications more impartial and more honest. Then we may discuss. You are smart man, so try to think independently.

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Post by Andreas » 10 Aug 2007 19:18

The discussion on the Polish-Soviet war now has its own thread:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=125497

Please stay on topic here.

Any posts containing personal insults will be deleted in their entirety from now on, to give posters an incentive to behave according to forum rules.

Thank you.

Andreas

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Post by Andreas » 10 Aug 2007 20:14

kon

We have no time for unsourced flamebait on this forum. Find another place where you can troll, and stop derailing the discussion here.

Thank you.

Andreas

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Liluh
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Post by Liluh » 15 Aug 2007 21:06

To drop two cents. Soviets did supply insurgents through air drops. It were literally "drops" and from air.. Low flying 2 crew biplanes were throwing sacks with for example food cans from altitude of around 100-200 meters. Sacks were also filled with hay to, obviously, lessen the force of ground impact. Though, what ever was dropped, hopefully not injuring or killing anyone on the ground, was in a state far from "usable". Stalin tho, had a nice alibi, after all, they DID drop supplies, so what`s the problem? ;)

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michalst
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Post by michalst » 15 Aug 2007 21:22

According to some guys from dws.org.pl the soviets supplied their own troops in Stalingrad in the same way! Air "drops" from low flying planes without parachutes.

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 16 Aug 2007 01:06

michalst wrote:According to some guys from dws.org.pl the soviets supplied their own troops in Stalingrad in the same way! Air "drops" from low flying planes without parachutes.
Dump of a cargo from the low-flying plane in special containers without use of parachute system well-known all over the world a way. This way was used widely, in particular, by Germans, Romanians and Italians. Obviously, the London Poles did not know about such method of dump of a cargo. But it already their problems

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Yuri
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Post by Yuri » 16 Aug 2007 01:29

The report of commanding 1-st Byelorussian front
To Supreme Commander in chief about position of rebels in Warsaw.
On September, 21, 1944.

to com. Semenov [Semenov - is Stalin's conditional surname]

I report on position in Warsaw:

On many sources, mainly interrogations of the persons leaving Warsaw, and the agents deserted by us, the total of the armed rebels continuing struggle against Germans in city is established, that, 4000 person, working separately in three regions does not exceed.

Formally common management is carried out by the general "Monter" which army headquarters is in the central region, but in essence each region lives and operates independently, and in a nutria of regions - groups of Army Craiova, Armies Ljudovoj, Polish Army Ljudovoj, corps of safety of the political and organizational independence have not lost and aspire to keep independence.

The arms at rebels light, will consist of pistols, carbines, rifles, automatic devices, insignificant amount of manual machine guns, mainly German, there are no guns, average and heavy mortars, at very bad maintenance with an ammunition.
Taking into account amount of rebels, their extreme weak arms, isolability on the separate centers and as absence of a uniform military management and political unity, rebels of any real force in struggle for the city of Warsaw do not represent and to expect for their a little essential help it is impossible.

In city and the regions held by rebels, there is still a significant amount of the population able to some extent to take part in struggle against Germans, but it is not organized and not armed and tests sharp lack of the foodstuffs by virtue of what to expect for his{its} involving in active struggle at present it is not obviously possible.

Under indications of some the persons who have left Warsaw, it is known, that in August rebels received arms, an ammunition, the foodstuffs and medicines, are dumped by the English planes, however, under the common application interrogated, the majority of cargoes has got to the German, in view of their dropping from the big height. An example of it is dropping cargoes by one hundred American planes « the Flying fortress » 18.9.1994 from height of 4,5 thousand meters.

From 230 parachutes observable from our coast with a cargo absolutely the majority was lowered not in region held by rebels, and in an territory of Germans, and separate - in an arrangement of our troops, in 40 kms from Warsaw.
Thus, instead of the help to rebels, allies supply Germans.

Droppings of cargoes made by us by planes On - 2 in overwhelming majority got to destination, that proves to be true all left of Warsaw and our agency.
The further help to rebels arms, an ammunition, the foodstuffs and medicines we continue.

K.Rokossovsky K.Telegin.
Source:
TsAMO of RF. f. 233, op. 2307, d. 26, l. 39-41. The certified copy.
(ÐÀ. GPW. 14-3 (2). Ì., a Terra, 2000, pp. 432-433)

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