Warsaw Uprising

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wm
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Post by wm » 16 Aug 2007 14:32

Yuri wrote:
michalst wrote:According to some guys from dws.org.pl the soviets supplied their own troops in Stalingrad in the same way! Air "drops" from low flying planes without parachutes.
Dump of a cargo from the low-flying plane in special containers without use of parachute system well-known all over the world a way. This way was used widely, in particular, by Germans, Romanians and Italians. Obviously, the London Poles did not know about such method of dump of a cargo. But it already their problems
The main problem was not how the cargo was dropped.
Soviets began their own airdrop raids from September 13 - 43 days after the beginning of the Uprising (The Western Allies began supporting the Warsaw Uprising from the August 4 - 4 days after the beginning).
At that time everyone knew how the Warsaw Uprising would end.

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Liluh
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Post by Liluh » 17 Aug 2007 01:59

Ah Yuri, note what wm wrote (13th sept) and as for airdrops without chutes, I have itching suspicion all the other nations doing such drops used special containers not sacks with hay dropped from too high altitude, especially in urban terrain with solid pavemented ground.

In any case, the quote of Rokossovsky you were so kind to provide clearly states how Soviets approached the topic of uprising. Starting from "rebels", then wonderfully certain number estimation of 4000 divided men fighting (wonder where that number came from), and ending with complaining (or was that a cynical joke) about allied planes dropping from too high altitude and into german positions. Knowing fully well, that : 1) Soviets did not allow those bombers to be launched from their territory (therefore they had to go all the way from souther Italy) 2) they didn`t allow even refueling 3) didn`t provide any recon or exchange informations about enemy positions 4) despite the fact they kept taking tons of allied shipments with equipment and supplies.

Guess you made your point.

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Post by kon » 19 Aug 2007 16:12

There can be Stalin and has forbidden to planes of allies to land on the Soviet air stations. But charges in that that Stalin has stopped Red Army when has learned about uprising in Warsaw, are absurd. It was not necessary Rokossovski to distract 2 tank army of 4 tank divisions. Then Germans would suppress uprising not for 2 months, and for a week

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Post by Net_Skater » 24 Aug 2007 02:17

Yuri wrote:
Dump of a cargo from the low-flying plane in special containers without use of parachute system well-known all over the world a way. This way was used widely, in particular, by Germans, Romanians and Italians. Obviously, the London Poles did not know about such method of dump of a cargo. But it already their problems
Your lack of knowledge forces me to present you with a little homework. Please make a research and find what kind of plane was used by Western Allies and by Russians for air drop of supplies during Warsaw Uprising. As you can read in this topic, Russian drops were executed by very low level night flying, often with plane's engine turned off, therefore plane sort of glided over the drop zone. There was a plane (made in USSR) perfectly capable for such a mission - but I will not make your life easy, you find out what plane it was.
In contrast, Wester Allies were forced - for obvious reasons - to utilise different category of planes. Those planes - 4 engine planes comparing to Russian biplane - had no chance to repeat tactics used by Russian. Try to imagine four engine haevy bomber gliding at night with engines turned off on altitude 80-100 meters over darkened city. The crew of such a plane should have their heads examined by psychiatrist !
Therefore, I suggest you leave "London Poles" alone - your sarcasm lacks neither merit nor humor.
Regards
N_S

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Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 27 Aug 2007 17:29

In September general Nicolaus von Vormann, commander of 9. Army sent a report to Hans Reinhardt, Army Group Center commander, about casualties of his Army units in Warsaw Uprising from its beggining. Figures which were given to Hans Reinhardt on 18. September 1944 say about 8951 KIA and WIA from 9. Army units fighting against Warsaw Insurgents

That report proves that figures from von dem Bach's report which were given to Himmler on 5. X. 1944 are not correct and are decreased. In von dem Bach's report, number of 9,000 KIA and WIA was given for all units, all Warsaw and for all days of combat.

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Re: Warsaw Uprising

Post by ms1981 » 15 Sep 2008 12:32

“Rokossovski was the Pole, was born in Warsaw and wished to help insurgents.”

Rokossowski hated Poles and Poland, he was half Pole and half Russian. It is well known information.

Stalin sent help, of course, ppl who didn’t know how to use their equipment, who was peasants and never seen big city. Some of them didn’t know what to do, they filled badly in place with had so many buildings and streets.

Stalin statement was changing during apprising, from neutral to negative (read correspondence between him and Churchill). He called Poles bandits and criminals. He also noticed in letter, that he will not help Poles.


“just a question:
why did the Warsaw people thought that Red Army will help them during the uprising?
why did they trust them?ę

Ok. The truth is that we didn’t want their help. Polish HQ decided to take Warsaw from Germans to set polish government, which was not connected in any way with Polish communistic government. They wanted to make capital city free before they come. It should provided them a lot of “good cards” in next discussion about future of Poland, future which they wanted to create without Moscow.

“Anglo-American planes did not give the sanction to landing in the Soviet territory to the same reasons, on which Anglo-Americans within more than two months (from April till June, 1944) did not authorize for landing in Italy (Bari) to the Soviet planes dumping a cargo with the weapon for Tito’s guerrilla to Yugoslavia.
In Russian it sounds so: after what has bought, on that and has sold.

Did not you hear about it?”

I don’t think so it is the main reason. They could use Russian airports at the beginning of Warsaw operation, suddenly Stalin didn’t allow for it…

If you call polish village poor how you call Russian? This ppl when reached polish border and crossed it, they saw better life, village. Then everything what Stalin’s propaganda said for them was strange “truth”, which we can call as falls.

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Re: Warsaw Uprising

Post by Benoit Douville » 21 Sep 2008 17:27

Zygmunt Berling, in an attempt to free the city from the occupying German forces before the Red Army could secure the capital. With his own army stopped on the Vistula river and facing Warsaw itself, and without first consulting his Soviet superiors, he issued orders to engage the German enemy and to come to the aid of the Polish resistance. But it was just a small landing without any tactical support from Berling or other Soviet units that could not do any real difference in the situation of Warsaw.

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Art
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Re: Warsaw Uprising

Post by Art » 22 Sep 2008 15:40

Benoit Douville wrote: With his own army stopped on the Vistula river and facing Warsaw itself, and without first consulting his Soviet superiors, he issued orders to engage the German enemy and to come to the aid of the Polish resistance.
That's an urban legend, I believe. Berling not even consulted his superiors, but he made the landing following their order.
Combat order by the staff of the 1st Belorussian Front to the 1st Polish Army
15th September 1944

The front commander has ordered:
The 1st Polish Army is to reach the east bank of Vistula by its main forces in the sector …. by the end of 15.9.44
Simultaneously the army is to start reconnaissance of the Vistula River in the aforementioned sector, choice of sites for landing, bridge and pontoon crossings and preparation for crossing Vistula with the task to seize bridgehead on its western side in the region of Warsaw.
Delimiting line from the right – as before.
Acknowledge the receipt.

Chief of staff of the 1st Belorussian Front
Colonel general Malinin
Translated from "Russkiy Arkhiv", Vol 14, Terra, 1994
It must be added that according to Shtemenko the operation was authorized personally by Stalin, although there are no documental evidences.
But it was just a small landing without any tactical support from Berling or other Soviet units
The crossing was supported by Soviet artillery, engineer and chemical (used for smoke cover) units. Moreover, on 20th September the staff of the Front ordered to attach one infantry regiment with experience of street fightings in Stalingrad to the Polish Army but it was too late as on 22 September it was decided that holding bridgeheads in Warsaw was no longer practicable. It was allready the second abortive crossing attempt by the Polish Army for two months (the first was in early August). As a result the Soviet command made some conlclusions regarding Berling's ability to command the army.

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Re:

Post by wojtop79 » 23 Sep 2008 10:03

kon wrote:But charges in that that Stalin has stopped Red Army when has learned about uprising in Warsaw, are absurd. It was not necessary Rokossovski to distract 2 tank army of 4 tank divisions. Then Germans would suppress uprising not for 2 months, and for a week
These charges are not absurd cause can be proved by documents. On the 8th of August 1944 commanders of Soviet forces fighting in Poland - Rokossowski and Zukov sent to Stalin (acting on their own initiative) a proposal to execute the "Warsaw Operation" targeted at destroying German forces in the area and as a result liberating the city. The full scale offensive aiming at outflanking and encircling German forces was to be launched on 25th of August after regroupment and resting the forces of the 1nd Belarussian Front. Stalin rejected this proposal.
(full text af the report/proposal - Soviet Archive 806, unit 233, no 2356 vol 28)

Thus - Soviets had a capability to launch a ground operation to help the Uprising - Stalin's decision stopped it though.

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Re: Re:

Post by Art » 24 Sep 2008 18:13

wojtop79 wrote:. On the 8th of August 1944 commanders of Soviet forces fighting in Poland - Rokossowski and Zukov sent to Stalin (acting on their own initiative) a proposal to execute the "Warsaw Operation" targeted at destroying German forces in the area and as a result liberating the city.
I think the following document is meant:
The report by marshals G.K. Zhukov and K.K. Rokossovsky to the Supreme Commander-in-Chief on the plan of Warsaw operation.

Operational Army
8 August 1944

To the Supreme Commander-in-Chief Marshal of the Soviet Union comrade Stalin

We report considerations on further actions of the 1st Belorussian Front and the outline of the Warsaw operation plan.

1. The front will be able begin the Warsaw operation after all the armies of the right wing reach the line of Narew river and seize a bridgehead on its western side in the sector Pultusk-Serock.
Combat formations of these armies are separated by 120 kilimeters from the Narew river; it will take 10 days to pass this distance. Thus, the offensive operation of the right wing armies for reaching Narew must be conducted from 10 to 20.08.44.

2. At the same time on the left wing of the front it’s needed to conduct a supplementary operation by the forces of 69th, 8th Guards Armies, 7th Guards Cavalry and 11th Tank Corps in order to expand the bridgehead on the western side of Vistula and reach the line Warka, Stromiez, Radom, Wierzbica.
In order to conduct this operation it is needed to transfer the 1st Guards Tank Army from the 1st Ukrainian to the 1st Belorussian Front and dispatch it from Opatow via Ostrowiez, Senno with the task to reach the front Zwolen, Radom striking to the north-west and to assist 69th, 8th Guards Armies, 7th GCC, 11th TC in defeating opposing enemy forces.
Also it’s needed to shift the delimiting line between the 1st UF and 1st BF to the north up to the line Krasnystaw, Ilzanka, Opoczno, Piotrokow. That will make the combat formations of the left wing of the 1st Belorussian front denser and increase the striking power of our forces in the Radom sector.

3. After accomplishing these operations and after the right wing armies reach the line of Narew river and the left wing armies the line Warka, Stromiez, Radom, Wierzbica the troops will need at least 5 days to relocate the airforces to pull artillery and rear services and to deliver ammunition and fuel.

4. Taking into account the amount of time needed for preparation, the Warsaw operation could be begun on 25.08.44 by all the forces of the Front with the objective to reach the line Ciechanow, Plonsk, Wyshogrud, Sochaczew, Skiernewice, Tomaszov and take Warsaw.
In this operation we will use three armies, 1 tank and 1 cavalry corps for offensive north of Vistula and for offensive south of it - 69th, 8th Guards, 1st Tank and 2nd Tank Armies, 2 cavalry corps, 1 tank corps and one army at the expense of the right wing.
The 1st Polish Army will advance on the western side of Vistula with the task to capture Warsaw in cooperation with the right and left wings of the front.

5. Reporting stated above, we ask to approve our considerations on further offensive actions of the 1st Belorussain Front and our calculation of time for their implementation.

Zharov [Zhukov]
Rumyantzev [Rokossovsky]
Translated from the same "Russkiy arkhiv", Vol. 14. The document was partly published in "Soviet General Staff" by Shtemenko in late 60's. The archial reference to the copy of the plan must be TsAMO f.233, op. 2356, d. 28, ll 181-183

The questions I'm interested in are: what are the reasons to believe that the plan was written by private initiative of Zhukov and Rokossovsky and what are the reasons to believe that it was rejected?

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Re: Warsaw Uprising

Post by Art » 25 Sep 2008 16:08

Art wrote: As a result the Soviet command made some conlclusions regarding Berling's ability to command the army.
Just to be susbtsantiated, that is a written message sent by marshal Zhukov to Stalin in late September:
Examining Berling I have concluded that he is not able to command the [1st Polish] army. It will be better to appoint him a deputy of Rola-Zymierski and appoint major general Perkhorovich, who now commands 3rd Guards Rifle Corps of the 28th Amy, the army commander instead of Berling.
G. Zhukov
27.9.1944
That is from an editorial comment in "Russki Arkhiv.."
This message had the most direct consequences for Berling. On 30th September 1944 he was removed from from the positon of army commander "in view of marshal Zhukov's report" as said in the document.

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Re: Re:

Post by Art » 29 Sep 2008 16:02

Art wrote:The questions I'm interested in are: what are the reasons to believe that the plan was written by private initiative of Zhukov and Rokossovsky and what are the reasons to believe that it was rejected?
The problem here is that no documental sources answering these questions are available. However we have some evidences from memoirs.
From the memoir by general Telegin (in August 1944 - member of the military council of the 1st Belorussian Front):
...The Supreme Chief Command ordered to undertake another attempt to liberate Warsaw. Based on this order the military council of the front with participation ander under leadership by Stvaka's representative G.K. Zhukov developed a new plan of taking Warsaw [Then the description of the plan quoted above follows]
The operation began on the date set...

From the memoir by general Shtemenko (in August 1944 - Chief of the operational department of the General Staff):
According to an order by Stavka G.K. Zhukov and K.K. Rokossovsky sumbitted to I.V.Stalin their considerations on actions in the Warsaw operation. They reported [then a large quotation from the document follows]
...The plan of operations in Warsaw region immediately started to be carried out.
In other words Shtemenko and Telegin, who were without doubt well informed in this matter, agree on two basic points: namely 1)that the plan discussed was developed according to the order from above, and 2) that it was not only accepted but started to be carried out. These are rather serious eveidences and I would be interested to know on what the opposite point of view is based.

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Re: Warsaw Uprising

Post by henryk » 29 Sep 2008 19:56

Art said:
It was allready the second abortive crossing attempt by the Polish Army for two months (the first was in early August).
From where was the first carried? By which units? What happened? Was it an approved action?

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Re: Warsaw Uprising

Post by wojtop79 » 30 Sep 2008 03:24

Art, thank you putting here the English version of the document as well as quotations from both Generals and note about Berling. I had the Polish version of the report and wasn't aware of Telegin and Schtemenko memoirs.

My knowledge of the document comes from Jan Nowak-Jezioranski article "Spór o Powstanie Warszawskie"in "Kultura" 1/568-2/569. He describes the plan as Zukov/Rokossovsky's initiative. After giving the details of the plan he continues "Rejecting by Stalin the plan to continue the offensive towards Berlin had grave results". He doesn't mention how (no source) he came to conclusion that Stalin actually rejected it. It has to be said that Jan Nowak-Jezioranski was more of a politician than historician - in view of memoirs of Shtemenko and Telegin it seems that he (and me) have been lacking knowledge here.

Do you know why the operation was aborted and instead only a very limited, bloody and fruitless attempt of landing by Polish troops was made in mid-september? I never read a reliable explanation to this fact. It is often claimed that Red Army needed a lot of time to prepare for the next phase of offensive, but in view of Zukhov and Rokossovsky plan it is obvious that 3 weeks was sufficient. It is sometimes said that German counterattacks stoped the offensive. But at the moment of writing the plan the most significant German counterattack till the end of the year (the one in Radzymin area) has already lost momentum. For what reason it took 5 months (till january 1945) to launch the operation?

About the landing by Polish 1st Army - gen. Berling's was put in a very bad position by the command - he was first asked if he thinks the landing should be done and he obviously agreed. He received the order to perform the landing, yet contraty to his expectations he was left without support. Gen. Malinin said to him "You want to take Warsaw with your 3 divisions? As you wish - but you are doing it on your own risk" - all this is based on Z.Berling memoirs vol 3. No Red Army units took part in the landing.

Still - summing up everything 1) Stalin refusing Allied bombers delivering supplies to Warsaw to refuel in SU 2) not executing the operation mentioned above 3) providing any significant support to the uprising only from 10th of September on (40 days after the beginning!) - the conclusion seems to be obvious - Stalin did not want the uprising to succeed, he wanted it crushed by Germans. Moreover even if it can not be proven that the Soviet offensive was stopped because of the Uprising it is very hard to explain why it had stopped

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Re: Warsaw Uprising

Post by Art » 04 Oct 2008 14:51

henryk wrote: From where was the first carried? By which units? What happened? Was it an approved action?
The crossing was performed by elements of Polish 1st and 2nd Infatry divisions near Deblin on 1st August 1944. The units that crossed Vistula consisted of three infantry battalions and two companies and they were partly dislodged from their bridgehead by German counterattacks. See the info on Polish losses here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1095706
The crossing was made according to an order, of course, it was a part of a more general crossing operation by the left wing of the 1st Belorussian. In general it was a limited scale setback, but anyway unpleasant.

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