Reconquest of Kiev 1943

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Minotauros
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Reconquest of Kiev 1943

Post by Minotauros » 06 Nov 2007 14:32

64 years ago Kiev, the capital of the Ukraine, was reconquered by the troops of the Soviet 38th Army.

The accounts on this battle are quite unprecise: according to some sources, the city was evacuated by the German troops on November 6th, 1943, early in the morning, without fighting.

Other sources state that the city was recaptured after bitter street fighting that lasted for whole three days (3-6 November 1943).

My question is, which version of the two above is the right one.

Which German units were stationed in the city and participated in its defense?

Rgards!

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Re: Reconquest of Kiev 1943

Post by Art » 06 Nov 2007 16:57

Minotauros wrote: Other sources state that the city was recaptured after bitter street fighting that lasted for whole three days (3-6 November 1943).

The offensive of the 1st Ukrainian Front began on 3th November, however the starting positions were far enough from the streets of Kiev, so before 6th November the fightings occured on Kiev's outskirts at best.

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Post by Art » 07 Nov 2007 13:46

I was wrong, that happens when one relies on his memory too much. The units of 38th Army, namely 51st Rifle Corps reached Kiev on 5th November and by the end of that day had advanced as far as the city center. See the map from Moskalenko's memoirs:
http://rkkaww2.armchairgeneral.com/maps ... iev_43.gif
IIRC 5th Guards Tank Corps articipated in actions inside the city too.
As concerns the German evacuation the Soviet source describing the operation of the 1st Ukrainian front mentions that the withdrawl of columns of German troops from the city was noticed allready on 5th November. Given the fact that Kiev was enveloped from the west by the Tank Army it wasn't surprising. However, some fightings on the streets of the city occurred, though probably they took the form of rearguard actions for the German side.

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 08 Nov 2007 17:40

Situational map from Hinze's Die Rückzugskämpfe in der Ukraine 1943/44 :wink:

Jan-Hendrik

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Minotauros
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Post by Minotauros » 09 Nov 2007 15:18

Thank you, Jan-Hendrik, but the link doesn't work.

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Post by Jan-Hendrik » 09 Nov 2007 15:20

It works :wink:

Jan-Hendrik

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Post by Benoit Douville » 10 Nov 2007 20:03

Not only the Soviet 38th Army reconquered Kiev but also the men of the 1st Czechoslovak Independent Brigade, encouraged by Colonel Svoboda to fight for Kiev as they would fight for Prague and Bratislava. The Czechs fought in exemplary fashion, capturing the railway station by the evening of 5 November. Moskalenko two Corps 50 and 51st were at this juncture right inside the city along with the lead tanks of Kravchenko 5th Guards Tank Corps. The rattle and crack of the street fighting was drowned by the roar of demolitions, but the Germans 7 th Corps began to pull back as the Soviet encirclement tightened. On 6 November, 38th Army reported that Kiev, ripped and torn by bombardment and demolition was cleared from enemy troops. The liberation of Kiev has been carried out by the 1st Ukrainian Front.

Source: The Road to Berlin & Stalin War with Germany by Erickson

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Post by KACKO » 11 Nov 2007 03:08

Part of the Czechoslovak brigade was Czechoslovak tank battalion, it was its first battle.

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Post by Art » 11 Nov 2007 12:59

IIRC it was the first combat engagement of the whole brigade too. The predecessor of the brigade - separate Czechoslovak battalion commanded by L. Svoboda hade allready participated in actions in the vicinty of Kharkov in March 1943, where it suffered heavy casualties.

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Post by Qvist » 11 Nov 2007 20:27

Some figures for casualties of the German divisions in the Kiev sector, 1.-10.November, including Nachmeldungen:

(KIA/WIA/MIA/Total)

88.ID: 103 399 253 755
213.Sich.D.: 6 14 78 98
75.ID: 30 93 417 531 542
7.PzD 92/303/247 652
68.ID: 66/ 193/16/275
8.PzD: 62/ 268/ 106/ 436

Interestingly, 323.ID do not show up in the PzAOK 4 reports after II Dekade in October. 82.ID is missing only in the I Dekade November report.

These are, incidentally, pretty high figures, even for the period. Total for PzAOK 4, 6,796. This, as indicated, omits some divisions who were present (
323.ID and 82.ID).

cheers

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KACKO
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Post by KACKO » 13 Nov 2007 18:22

Art wrote:IIRC it was the first combat engagement of the whole brigade too. The predecessor of the brigade - separate Czechoslovak battalion commanded by L. Svoboda hade allready participated in actions in the vicinty of Kharkov in March 1943, where it suffered heavy casualties.


That's true, it was brigade first battle as a unit too.

Czechoslovak battalion was fighting in and around village Sokolovo near Kharkov. And after Kharkov was taken by Germans few Czechoslovak wounded soldiers in hospital there were killed by Germans.

Otakar Jaros was awarded for defense of Sokolovo Hero of Soviet Union as a first foreigner.

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Re: Reconquest of Kiev 1943

Post by FORBIN Yves » 13 Jan 2019 18:34

Czech Motorized Bde had 3300 pers i think 3 Infantry Bns maybe one artillery Bn and one Tank Bn with 10 T-34 + 10 T-70
http://tankfront.ru/ussr/organisation/s ... 7_otb.html
http://tankfront.ru/ceskoslovensko/hist ... vyhod.html

For Soviet armored units i have only tank strength for 3 Guards Tand Army which had :
6 and 7 GTC, 9 GMC, 91 Tank Bde, 166 Tank Rgt, 1835, 1836 Su Rgts, 50 Motorcycle Rgt
With 420 T-34, 63 T-70, 2 KV, 78 Valentines, 9 M4A2, 20 SU-76, 14 SU-122, 16 SU-152, 48 SU-85, total 670 tanks and SP-guns
battle-ready : 183 T-34, 38 T-70, 40 Valentines, 3 SU-76, 5 SU-122, 4 SU-152, 27 SU-85, total 300 tanks and SP guns

60 Army : 129, 150 Tank Bde and 59 Tank Rgt

38 Army : 5 GTC, Czech Motorized Bde, 39 Tank Rgt

27 Army :150 Tank Bde, 1831, 1832 Su Rgts

52 Army : 8 GTC and 10 TC very low in Kanev - Bukrin bridgehead

1 Ukrainian Front : 1 G Cavalry Corps, 1454 Su Rgt, 51 G Tank Rgt

Rfts :
4th GTC, 10 Nov
25 TC, 13 Nov
186 Tank bde, 19 Nov
1 Tank Army : 11 GTC, 8GMC, 64 G Tank Bde, 1451 Su Rgt, 2 December

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Re: Reconquest of Kiev 1943

Post by FORBIN Yves » 22 Feb 2019 13:37

Very interesting battle and i search infos about Soviet reinforcement end November and december

I have :

USSR :
10 Nov : 4 GTC no Numbers for tanks, Su
13 Nov : 25 TC no Numbers for tanks, Su
19 Nov : 1 Guards army with 74, 94 and 107 CF but with what IDs ?
19 Nov : 3 Breaktrough Art Div, 196 Tank Bde
19 Nov ? : 93 Tank Bde
02 Dec : 1 Tank Army : 11 GTC, 8 MC, 64 Tank G Bde, 1541 Su Rgt but no Numbers for tanks, Su
02 Dec : 11 FC/18A so surely 18A HQ arrive also
09/12 : 22 FC/18A
15 Dec : 101 CF/18A

Germans : yet arrived 25 Pz, 1 Pz SS, 1 Pz, 2 Pz SS ( from Kanev/Bukrin brighead ) 509 Tiger Bn, 198 ID, Cav Rgt Sud, 2 ABN Div, 280 Stug Bns, HQ 48 PZK !
About 15 Nov : 19 Pz arrive from Kanev/Bukrin brighead
12 Dec : 18 Art Div
9 Dec : 2 ABN Div arrived 11 Nov left for Kirovograd not full about 60 %, 5 Paras Bns on 9 a part again but Elite unit

For maps to see where arrive these units i have only this one but up to 25 november only
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/ ... iev_43.gif

If some have more, thank you for help.

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Re: Reconquest of Kiev 1943

Post by Art » 23 Feb 2019 09:03

1 Tank Army entered actions only on 24 December. 4 Guards Tank Corps - in the first half of December, and 25 Tank Corps - in the second half. All those units received a full complement of armored vehicles IIRC, e.g. 1 TA had about 500 tanks/SP guns, and 4 GTC and 25 TC - more than 200

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Re: Reconquest of Kiev 1943

Post by FORBIN Yves » 23 Feb 2019 12:29

Art wrote:
23 Feb 2019 09:03
1 Tank Army entered actions only on 24 December. 4 Guards Tank Corps - in the first half of December, and 25 Tank Corps - in the second half. All those units received a full complement of armored vehicles IIRC, e.g. 1 TA had about 500 tanks/SP guns, and 4 GTC and 25 TC - more than 200
Thanks ! and yes meantime i have see new infos and i had a doubt and surely these units remains in reserve after arriving
24 December start date for Zhitomir–Berdichev Operation

But i have find composition of the 1st Guard Army and 18th Army especialy here http://bdsa.ru/
Rifle Corps : RC post above FC

1st Guard Army
23 ID
74 RC : 107, 183, 305 IDs
94 RC : 30, 99, 127, 350 IDs
107 RC : 271, 328, 351 DI
Possible 186 Tank Bde

NB : i think 74 and 94 RC arrive on the Front about 20 november possible the 107 RC later


18th Army

11 RC :117G, 304, 316 IDs
22 RC :129G, 317, 395 IDs
101 RC :161, 24 IDs
93 Tank Bde, 1451 Su Rgt

And 76th Rifle Corps arrive 17 ? december with 6G, 121G, 112 IDs normaly with 13 Army

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