Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

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Peter K
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Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Peter K » 15 Apr 2008 12:41

From Christophs Avender site:

1. Oktober 1939:

"A armoured recon-platoon under Hptm.Lunke was sent to the russians at Kock to negotiate about the exact demarcationline did not return"

Here it is - it's probably exactly the same unit - I found these photos on http://www.odkrywca-online.pl/forum.php :D:

Image

Image

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Several armoured cars (only 2 of them are on these photos) from Aufklärungs-Abteilung 13. (13. Mot. Infanterie-Division) were destroyed in Kock region on 1st of October 1939 by a village called Oszczepalin Pierwszy.

They were destroyed by a patrol from 10th Uhlans Regiment.

Colonel Czesław Hanke from 9th PSK describes this event in his memories.

According to Jan Kaczorowski, a doctor from 9th PSK, all Germans were killed except two mechanics who suffered heavy wounds of heads, but survived and were captured.

Inside one of the cars, a map of Poland was found, with Curzon Line marked on it.

What about those wrecks - where was it?:

Destroyed:

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Burned - the same day:

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Destroyed - Oktober 1939 - crew burried near:

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And another photo - destroyed somewhere in Kampinos Forests, west of Warsaw - 23.09.1939:

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Głowaczów bewteen Warka and Kozienice - west of Vistula river - what division was fighting there? - 2nd Leichte Division?:

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Głowaczów:

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Njorl
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Njorl » 15 Apr 2008 21:17

Hello,

These are the armoured cars in question. More photos of wrecks of Leutnant Scheiber's platoon can be seen here nad here.

The first two photos of cannibalized Pz IV are said to have been taken near Pszczyna. At least I've seen photos of the same or very similar Panzer captioned in this way.

Regards,
MJU

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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Peter K » 15 Apr 2008 23:07

And what about this?:

Image

Date is also 1.10.1939 - photo was probably taken somewhere on the road from Kock to Radzyń Podlaski - we can see destroyed armoured car, two graves, and some German soldiers standing in the background.

The first two photos of cannibalized Pz IV are said to have been taken near Pszczyna. At least I've seen photos of the same or very similar Panzer captioned in this way.


I don't think so - maybe you have seen this photo with wrong describtion - battle of Pszczyna was fough during the first days of September, not in October - by 5th Panzer-Division.

It's also possible that it was different wreck, but very similar.

What unit are those soldiers from? Is somebody able to read the name and rank from the cross?

Destroyed Soviet BT-2 - 1939:

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Also from October - Hauptman Helmut Lunke - this one from the report from Christophs Avneder site:

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Destroyed Soviet T-28 - 1939:

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Photo and the description below:

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In the picture we can see at least three different German tanks - they were destroyed in Sochaczew, Towarowa street - on the first photo we can see 3 destroyed tanks (Pz-IV, Pz-III, Pz-II):

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Another localized photo:

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Last edited by Peter K on 15 Apr 2008 23:29, edited 2 times in total.

Peter K
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Peter K » 15 Apr 2008 23:25

Njorl wrote:Hello,

These are the armoured cars in question. More photos of wrecks of Leutnant Scheiber's platoon can be seen here nad here.

The first two photos of cannibalized Pz IV are said to have been taken near Pszczyna. At least I've seen photos of the same or very similar Panzer captioned in this way.

Regards,
MJU


I forgot to say, that according to my sources this unit, of which three pictures - and also the decription below - are attached to the first post, was going to BREST LITOVSK, not to Kock.

And not to discuss about the exact demarcationline, but to discuss some other details connected with future partition of Poland between two agressors.

Quotation:

"Samochodami tymi wyruszyła do Brześcia Litewskiego delegacja niemiecka, mająca za zadanie ustalić z Rosjanami szczegóły podziału Polski na strefy wpływów Rzeszy i Związku Radzieckiego. Jak widać delegacja nie dotarła na miejsce."

And according to Christophs Avender site, the destination of the recoon unit under command of Hauptman Lunke (not Leutnant Scheiber - according to Christophs Avender site) was Kock - not Brest Litovsk.

So it seems that there could be two different events, very similar. What do you think about it?

One more thing - from CA site:

258.Inf.Div. with forward units at Wieninwa and will be assigned to IV.A.K. tomorrow.

A armoured recon-platoon under Hptm.Lunke was sent to the russians at Kock to negotiate about the exact demarcationline did not return.


Does it mean that the patrol which was sent to Kock could be from 258. Infanterie-Division? - there is nothing about 13. Motorized Div. there.

Regards

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tigre
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by tigre » 16 Apr 2008 01:41

Hello Domen, glad to greet you :) ; just to put it clear, Hauptmann Helmut Lunke was not a troop commander but the divisional Ic (Intel Officer) see the wooden cross - stab 13 ID. In truth he was the senior Officer among that delegation with full authority given by XIV. Armeekorps (mot.). Leutnant Scheiber instead belonged to the AA 13, see the other wooden cros again; as no other officer was killed there that date he was the platoon leader of those three vehicles (taken in account that all minus two NCO were killed). As for your question many parties were sent to look for the contact with the russian in order to avoid cross-firing incidents. Regards. Raúl M 8-) .

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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Njorl » 16 Apr 2008 17:58

Hello,

Exactly like Raúl/tigre wrote:
- on the light-coloured cross: Hauptmann Helmut Lunke, Stab 13. ... - divisional Ic,
- on the dark-coloured cross (with group of soldiers in the background), with no doubt (I have this photo in hand; the second cross with helmet marks Lunke's grave - apparently it has been changed later/N) Ltn. Achim (ie. Joachim/N) Scheiber I.AA13, gef. 1.10.1939 - an officer of 1. Kompanie AA 13.

Domen121 wrote:I don't think so - maybe you have seen this photo with wrong describtion - battle of Pszczyna was fough during the first days of September, not in October - by 5th Panzer-Division.


So both photographs were taken in October, but this doesn't mean the Panzer was destroyed in October as well. This is the same wreck,
Image
But this time captioned Abgeschossener Panzer IV bei Pleß. Source.

Regards,
MJU

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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Peter K » 16 Apr 2008 18:54

If the describtion is right - i mean, "the October one" - then it was certainly destroyed in October - look at the second photo of this tank, when it already is completely burned - "Wenige Tage spater"

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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Peter K » 16 Apr 2008 19:02

But this time captioned Abgeschossener Panzer IV bei Pleß. Source.


Pleß - what's the Polish name?

By the way - from this link:

Image

Horrible mistake - it should be 2.10.1939 :?

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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Njorl » 16 Apr 2008 20:47

Hi,

German Pleß is/was Polish Pszczyna.

Domen121 wrote:If the describtion is right - i mean, "the October one" - then it was certainly destroyed in October - look at the second photo of this tank, when it already is completely burned - "Wenige Tage spater"


Well, the wreck looks like it had rather been stripped of anything of use than burned out few days later. As to time - as I understand it, the photos were taken in October. Generally, one rather captions photo with date when it was taken. The wreck itself might have already stood there for a while - even since early September. 'Tidying up' always takes time - eg. I have photos of He 111P of I./KG 4 that was shot down near Siewierz on September 3rd 1939 and all the surrounding and background tells that it had been taken in late Autumn 1939 (ploughed fields, trees without foilage, soldiers wearing greatcoats). Does it mean that this plane was shot down in, say November?

Regards,
MJU

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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Peter K » 16 Apr 2008 21:48

Well, the wreck looks like it had rather been stripped of anything of use than burned out few days later.


For me it looks like it was burned out - maybe it is some kind of strange shadow, covering almost the whole tank, but most likely it is a scare which left after burning out.

I don't think that Germans burned out their own tank, after it was immobilized - so most probably it was Polish job.

The wreck itself might have already stood there for a while - even since early September. 'Tidying up' always takes time


Of course this explanation is also reasonable and probable - this can explain horrible losses and drops of tanks number in armoured units, while Germans managed to repair or canibalized the most part of those lost tanks after the end of the campaign or after the long period of time - before that those tanks were of course gathered together and transported to repair shops, many kilometers to the west or to the north - or to Czechoslovakia - (for example in 1941, in the eve of Fall Barbarossa, German units from Bialystok had their repair shops in Poznań):

For example untill the morning of 12th of September, number of tanks in 3rd Panzer-Division decreased to less than 75% of the initial quantity (in Panzer-Regiment 6. only 119 tanks - including 55 Pz-I, 55 Pz-II, 3 Pz-III, 6 Pz-IV - of 160 at the beggining - including 67 Pz-I, 79 Pz-II, 5 Pz-III, 9 Pz-IV - left). And what is significant - this division suffered most only after the 11th of September - mostly during the battles of Andrzejewo, advance towards Brześć, battle of Brześć, advance towards Włodawa, heavy battle in Włodawa region against units from the Northern Front (41. Dywizja Piechoty - Infantry Division - on 19. IX), and the battle fought against GO "Polesie" under general Kleeberg between Brześć and Kobryń - from 14th to 19th of September.

In the late evening of 17th of September, Panzer-Regiment 35. had only 60 tanks (this is exact number) of 177 with which it was starting the campaign - so the combat-strenght of P-R 35. decreased - during the first 17 days of fight - to less than 34% of the initial power - and during the next few days of fights its combat-power decreased again due to heavy losses sustained in the battle of Bzura and Kampinos Forests.

Losses of the Panzer-Regiment 36. were even higher or at least similar, and it also had fewer tanks at the beggining of the campaign than its sister Regiment.

And these figures really shows us how fierce the Polish resistance was.

The most important thing was how many tanks left in the unit and how many were eliminate from its ranks.

How many of those lost tanks finally Germans didn't repair (or repaired) after several or more months / weeks, in a long-time repair after long transport to repair shops - was inessential.

-----------------

To summ up, let mi add, that in 1943 / 44 / 45 the vast majority of German "irreparable panzer-casualties" - were in fact not tanks that were unable to repair, but tanks that were immobilized (often they were only lightly damaged, or ran out of gasoline) - then were left on the battlefields and captured by Eastern / Western Allies forces - as Germany's army was constantly being push back by consecutive succesfull offensives of their enemies.

One more thing

(ploughed fields, trees without foilage, soldiers wearing greatcoats).


What do You think, Njorl, about the third photo from Sochaczew from Towarowa street (this one showing destroyed Pz-III) - was it taken in October? - the soldier standing on the tank is in Autumn uniform I think.

If i'm right, those three wrecks were probably standing in Sochaczew (and rusting) untill October or even November.

Regards

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mark67
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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by mark67 » 16 Apr 2008 23:02

Domen121 wrote:Destroyed Soviet T-28 - 1939:

I am afraid not 1939. There are visible up-armoured T-28 turrets. It was modification developed after of Winter War experience.

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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Njorl » 17 Apr 2008 20:56

There are trees with leaves behind Pz III, so depsite the soldier wearing coat I'd rather bet on October. Trees in the background of Pz IV seem to be bare - November?

Regards,
MJU

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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Peter K » 18 Apr 2008 18:30

Well - in the first photo there are trees without leaves and we can see there all of three tanks from the following photos.

Remember that all of these wrecks were in the same place - on Towarowa street in Sochaczew - so all of them were probably lying there in November.

Maybe one photo was taken in October, and another one in November - and tanks were still there.

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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by Peter K » 20 May 2008 16:23

But this time captioned Abgeschossener Panzer IV bei Pleß.


During the battle of Pleß 5. Panzer-Division was fighting against Polish 6. Dywizja Piechoty.

Below is the list of German 5. Panzer-Division tank casualties in the battle of Pleß according to researches by J.Ryt, the author of the new book on this battle - of course this casualty figures may be incomplete:

1. September:

Rybnik: 7 - 15. Pz.Rgt.
Żory: 4 - 15. Pz.Rgt.
Branica: 2 - 15. Pz.Rgt.
Brzeźce: 9 - 31. Pz.Rgt.
Kryry: 3 - 15. Pz.Rgt.
Jastrzębie: 6
Wisła Wielka: 4 - 31 Pz.Rgt.

2. September:

Pszczyna: 5 - 15 Pz.Rgt.
Stara Wieś: 2 - 15 Pz.Rgt.
Ćwiklice: 15 - 15 Pz.Rgt.
Miedźna: 1 - 31 Pz.Rgt.
Góra: 1 - 31 Pz.Rgt.

3. September:

Bojszowy: 5 - 15 Pz.Rgt.

4. September:

Rajsko: 1 - 31 Pz.Rgt.

Total: 65 tanks (59 on 1. and 2. IX)

According to Wladyslav Steblik - "Army Cracow 1939" - Poles claimed that they had inflicted loss of about 50 tanks from 5. Panzer-Division during the two first days of the battle of Pszczyna (Pleß).

The conclusion is that real German casualties were higher than Poles claimed.

--------------------------------------

Pz-IV from the photos above was most probably lost near Ćwiklice - on September 2nd 1939.

Here is probably another photo of this tank:

Image

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Re: Solving Puzzles - Poland, 1939

Post by tigre » 06 Jun 2008 05:18

Hello to all people :D. To all who are interested in the actions carried out on September 1939 in Poland; now a query dealing with the gebirgsjägers. While sailing on the web I've stumbled with this sample from historical media about one officer (Leutnant d.r.Volkmar Frobenius) belonging to the 9./GJR 100 - 1 Gebirgsdivision. He fell on September 17 at Dobrostany; I think this action was part of those sustained around Lemberg/Lwow/Lviv in that year (1939). Anyone here could kindly light me up about this struggle?:

Taken from Christoph's site on Sept 17 1939

XVIII.A.K.: surrounded Lemberg from west, north and south and tries to intercept enemy forces in the woods south of Jaworow and northwest of Lemberg.

1.Geb.Div.: is under heavy enemy pressure from outside and inside Lemberg. In the morning enemy forces attack the south of Holosko. Polish artillery fires into the city setting it on fire. In the afternoon the northern part of Holosko is lost to polish forces. Around 16:00 masses of polish troops advance towards Zboiska but are rejected by counter attacks. In the night 17./18.Sept. elements of Geb.Jg.Rgt.98 reject 18 enemy attacks on Holosko.


Thanks in advance. All the best. Raúl M 8-).
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